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Using artillery.. - 8/5/2003 7:06:33 PM   
Paddington

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 11/28/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		When people say 10% artillery.
What do they mean?

Is it that I can buy whit 10% of the points any mortar-gun?
Are planes "artillery"?
Are mortars and 75mm artillery guns "artillery"?
Do you count the FOs and machine guns that comes whit the formation to "artillery"?

So far I have counted everything that comes whit the formation to be included in the cost.

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Post #: 1
Re: Using artillery.. - 8/5/2003 7:12:26 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paddington
[B]When people say 10% artillery.
What do they mean?

Is it that I can buy whit 10% of the points any mortar-gun?
Are planes "artillery"?
Are mortars and 75mm artillery guns "artillery"?
Do you count the FOs and machine guns that comes whit the formation to "artillery"?

So far I have counted everything that comes whit the formation to be included in the cost. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not saying this is definite, but this is how I look at it.

Counts towards 10% limit:

Offboard arty
Onboard arty
Field guns
Air sections


Does not count towards 10% limit:

FO
Mortars organic to units, e.g. 50mm mortars in platoons
AT guns (and no, a 150mm tracked gun is NOT an AT weapon)
AA and AAA

Grey zone: Ammo dumps/trucks and canisters. This is usually agreed upon before battle. Some think its fair to leave them out of the 10% limit, others want them to go inside. A good point for the latter is that in that case you'll have to choose between more tubes or more ammo...

So, with the exception of organic mortars, all units that are capable of indirect fire. :)

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Post #: 2
- 8/6/2003 1:25:51 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		One thing I've noticed in H2H is that a late war Panzergrenadier Company has 120mm mortars organic to it ... these may be significant enough to count towards a 10% arty limit and if so, do we draw the line at 50 to 60mm weapons, or at ~ 80mm tubes :confused:

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Post #: 3
- 8/6/2003 1:35:54 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		That is something two players need to work out, the Russian 50mm is much better than the others and the 60mm Jeep is a good arty item ( In H2H much more expnsive than in 7.1)


Might want to link it to range vise size it would be much easier if you link it that way ( IMHO )

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Post #: 4
- 8/6/2003 2:49:52 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B] Might want to link it to range vise size it would be much easier if you link it that way ( IMHO ) [/B][/QUOTE]

Good thinking. :)

Caliber-wise, I'd draw the line for organic at 50mm. :p

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Post #: 5
- 8/6/2003 4:40:17 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Air sections, if used at all (which they shouldn't be, but I digress), [U]should[/U] count towards your arty limit, but I'm the minority in this regard.

My rule is: If it shoots indirectly, it is counted towards your arty total. Thus, ammo dumps, etc. are not arty. FOs and MGs or transports attached to your mortar sections are not counted towards the arty limit, but unless the math is easy, I just count them towards my limit anyway. Sub-60mm mortars attached to platoons are not counted towards the limit (they aren't worth the cost IMHO except for the Russian mortars). Any US 60mm mortar is an especially deadly tool in the right hands (read my Beyond the Beachhead DAR to see how deadly they are on an assault.)

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 6
- 8/6/2003 6:39:39 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		RB is starting his 2004 campain to COUNT AIR STRIKES AS ARTY, he will be speaking at the Hooters convention in Jan. Kissing babies in Iowa in March. And in April he will be at a pastic surgery convention, he will be a guest feeler at the breAst augmentation booth, determining if you can really feel the difference. As his campain scheduler advisor ( Self appointed ) I will be scheduling him at the Hawian Tropic competention, after his Judging duties are completed we will discuss face to face how to assassinate Gary and Buzzard since we have not figured out how to beat them.


Donations can be sent to:

Air Strikes Should Count Foundation

[SIZE=1]Any extra funds will go to the All crews should die foundation[/SIZE]

Please vote for RB ( This announcement has been paid for by the Air Stikes Should Count Foundation )

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 7
- 8/6/2003 7:14:55 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		LOL :D

I have my vote!

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 8
- 8/6/2003 7:33:02 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Later German Pzg Companies come with 80mm SP mortors. I think that would count as artillery under these guidlines. How do you seperate the cost of formation inherent artillery? looking up each gun seems a bit overkill. I'd settle for a ball park number and tend not to get overly concerned with every tube: I don't really get offended if a few extra art units find their way into the mix. Usually, I'll ask for a range like 10 to 15 %. That way you get some lattitude AND the opponent gets to make changes -- but I think I am the minority view on this.

One of the reasons I like C&C is it self-limits indirect fire. When you can only bring in two or three calls, having a massive artillery contingent becomes counter productive.

And no, airpower is not artillery. Ask anyone who flys the things if they are considered artillery. It [I]is[/I] a ground support asset, however. So are infiltrator units. Limits on all three, seperate from each other starts, looking more like a contract negotiation instead of a battle.

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

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Post #: 9
- 8/6/2003 8:59:22 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Challenge, you're being "technical" by applying a dictionary definition of what "arty" is to you. When negotiating "arty" in a PBEM battle, my contention is that "arty" is a shorthand way of meaning "any indirect fire capable asset." It's just a different way of looking at it. It is not a contract negotiation (not that there is anything wrong with those ;) )

.
.
.

There still should be no airstrikes in PBEM battles.

And, "Ski troops" is a dirty word.;)

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 10
- 8/6/2003 10:08:36 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		okay, my euro cents, too.

i always counted all arty above 81mm in the arty limit. so that small + med mortars don´t count in, that´s because these weapons were small unit assets. i mean the 81mm makes not much damage it surpresses more...

i must say i find a little problem with a 10% arty limit ( esp. in H2H where off board arty seems to be somewhat more expensive ). depending on the map the 10% are not enough to get a flowing game sometimes. let´s say you have an enemy who has taken the vic hexes fast in wooded or rough terrain, to get him out there ( if he has set up his defense properly ) you must have some arty. only this would lead to a game which flows again with attack and counterattack. otherwise perhaps the player who must take now this good protected hexes doesn´t dare to attack and this leads to a static, perhaps even boring game. this is true for points under the 4k range - i mean 400 points f. arty in H2H is not really much...

and: i would of course not count air under arty. air must be seperatly agreed on by the players. i had a nasty surprise as russian: i have 2 sturmoviks from that 1 has attacked twice and doesn´t do any damage, the other one is out of contact until turn 10 now, while my opp. has 2 m109 and killed 2 tanks and up to 20 men from me :mad:

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Post #: 11
- 8/6/2003 11:06:10 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Well…

I’m of the opinion that the general consensus on this board was that small mortars (50mm) were the only things that can fire indirectly that were not counted toward a percentage limit on artillery. I hadn’t heard it put that way before, but I like the “if it can fire indirectly” caveat, with the noted 50mm exception.

81mm’s may not destroy troops left and right, but I’ve lost far too many AFVs to top-hits from 81mm’s to discount them as “light”/ineffective artillery. And they do a fair job of suppressing enemy troops (nothing in comparison to large arty or rockets, but fair considering their size).

And if you didn’t have reason enough to hate me already ;), I’m throwing a vote behind RB in the “Count Air as Arty” campaign. Why? Because it’s called for on the artillery screen! You target it/use it just like every other indirect OB piece of artillery. Granted, the planes themselves fire directly in the animation (for our benefit, because it just plain looks cool (or fearsome, depending on what end you’re on). They can’t be counter-batteried, but can be shot at/hit/shot down (and if they’re hit, they don’t come back). But in most other aspects the perform like OB artillery. Look at how you call them into use. You use the “Bombardment” key/button. They can be plotted just like artillery.

I’ve had them come in and strafe my own troops/tanks, had them miss horribly, but ask Wombat63 what 4 Sturmoviks can do. They took out 4 King Tigers, 3 Tigers (late), Elephants, Panthers, and even PzkFw III’s (and could be called every turn).

Just my two cents, US. :D

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 12
- 8/7/2003 12:21:34 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]i always counted all arty above 81mm in the arty limit. so that small + med mortars don´t count in, that´s because these weapons were small unit assets. i mean the 81mm makes not much damage it surpresses more...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Tell that to my Brit M4 driver who just had a G-D Italian (ITALIAN, I say!) 81mm mortar drop right into his lap and blow his ride to pieces!

And, just wait until my 60mm mortars start to work on your Germans in our PBEM. You're going to have nightmares about that experience.:p

(That's 2 votes for the airstrikes=arty party. Me and Vat. V2's just in it for the girls. :) Who else wants to join the movement?)

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 13
- 8/7/2003 2:43:47 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE][i
And if you didn’t have reason enough to hate me already ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

i really, really hate you now !!!!

any oppostition must be destroyed !

this is a challenge from me :mad: :mad:

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Post #: 14
Oh Frank... - 8/7/2003 3:08:13 AM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		I’ll take that as a challenge Francis, and settle it on the battlefield. ;)

Pick your Nation, better yet, pick mine as well (although I prefer either GE or SO, I’ve been known to play UK on occasion). You pick the size, map, year, etc. I’d prefer most all historical settings “ON” (except rarity, but can live with C&C “OFF” if you must). I also prefer no pre-laid mines if it’s a meeting engagement. The last thing I prefer is a somewhat realistic force composition (no hoards of motorcycle troopies, etc.).

You make the call on these:

Infiltrators

Air drops

Artillery limits

Reinforcements

I look forward to showing you that air power should indeed be considered artillery. :D

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 15
- 8/7/2003 3:46:35 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		*rubs hands*

Vathailos vs. Frank W? :p This will be a keeper, and I'm already looking forward to the DAR! :D :D

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Post #: 16
- 8/7/2003 3:51:41 AM   
AngryDeemon1

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Swamp, Hellhole (Tampa, Florida)
Status: offline 		Here is how i count arty. Say 5000 points 10% of that is 500.

Russian 120mm mortar platoon (6 mortars and a hq) costs 246. Hq costs 17. SO the total points against the arty limit is (gets out yellow pad) 246-17=229. and so on.

Airstrikes are not arty! THis is why I agree to airstrikes as a seperate line item! ie 2 air sections and 10% arty.

Airstrikes are seperate if only because they are the most vulnerable Offboard Unit in the game, they can be shot down (and often are) very quickly. unlike OB arty or onboard arty. if you count air towards the arty total whats the point in comprehensive aaa?

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 17
- 8/7/2003 5:11:19 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]T
And, just wait until my 60mm mortars start to work on your Germans in our PBEM. You're going to have nightmares about that experience.:p
[/B][/QUOTE]

i already have nightmares from you veteran players ( worse of course viking ) ;)

you destroyed much of my northern screening forces and the poor puma :(

but i got revenge this turn: 1 scout killed :D

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Post #: 18
Re: Oh Frank... - 8/7/2003 5:15:10 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vathailos
[B]I’ll take that as a challenge Francis, and settle it on the battlefield. ;)

Pick your Nation, better yet, pick mine as well (although I prefer either GE or SO, I’ve been known to play UK on occasion). You pick the size, map, year, etc. I’d prefer most all historical settings “ON” (except rarity, but can live with C&C “OFF” if you must). I also prefer no pre-laid mines if it’s a meeting engagement. The last thing I prefer is a somewhat realistic force composition (no hoards of motorcycle troopies, etc.).

You make the call on these:

Infiltrators

Air drops

Artillery limits

Reinforcements

I look forward to showing you that air power should indeed be considered artillery. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

okay, let me finish my viking game before ( as i´m not able to call reeinforcements this won´t be take so long ...).

i would play the US in 44 or 45 than, you gerries ?

H2H ?

how about i´m chosing only snipers ?
this is quite realistic composition, or ? :D

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Post #: 19
- 8/7/2003 5:17:53 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		cheers angry deemon, at least one person on my side :)

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Post #: 20
- 8/7/2003 5:20:50 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Why have limits , aside from agreeing on the total points , in PBEM at all, why not let each player just buy what he wants that is available for that year and nation. Biggest Problem SPWAW has is sameness game from game , predictable AI , map limit to map limit forces. If you want to dictate what the other guy can buy why don't you just play the other guys forces too? Gawds .. What the heck are you guys so afraid of ? Somebody doing something unexpected ? Coming up with a novel approach ? Why do you guys need to control what the Other Guy brings to the battle? Not every Army in the world has a similar tank to infantry to artillery to airpower ratio , they can be radically different from nation to nation, not that you guys would ever know .. geese louise what a bunch of wimps .

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 21
- 8/7/2003 5:28:36 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Quite a stong comments Ammo Sgt, thats it no WP for you

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Post #: 22
- 8/7/2003 5:43:16 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		The ONLY reason folks can't cope with Artillery is that they don't play against it often enough , they take no pains to learn countermeasures or tactics to defeat arty. Arty isn't just some insurmountable weapon that just happen to you, that you can't do anything about . It is something that requires some different tactics to overcome.. but IN SPWAW the way you overcome something is whine and moan on the forum till it gets dumbed down or negotiated away. LAME

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 23
- 8/7/2003 5:53:03 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmmoSgt
[B]... but IN SPWAW the way you overcome something is whine and moan on the forum till it gets dumbed down or negotiated away. LAME [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, AmmoSgt!:cool:

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 24
- 8/7/2003 6:38:32 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Why do I place arty limits? Well, having played without limits, I can tell you it is the most boring game to play (H2H.fr is quickly becoming the second most). Everything gets pinned down and you can hardly move. I want to play fun games, not boring games. Why does that make me a whimp?

More points to arty = fewer units on board = fewer targets & they are pinned more easily = BORING (Think WWI, Verdun)

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Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 25
- 8/7/2003 6:52:49 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Artillery and machine guns made WW I what it was -- a battle of attrition. Too much arty, I agree, bogs it real fast. C&C limits this somewhat, but given practice you can litterally freeze an advance in its tracks. So I agree with you on that point.

The other side of this is that arty can't really hold ground and eventually runs out of ammo. Infiltrators reduce the bog a bit, and if it's on-board, the arty is vulnerable. There are tactics useful for getting around the stuff, but it takes time. That, however, is the challenge in a high-arty game. Once you get close to the opponent's ground troops, the arty is as deadly to them as it is to you -- and you are likely to still have more of them.

I agree to limits because, with rare exception, artillery wasn't as prevalent in WW II as in the previous Big One. The battlefield belonged to the armor.

I think the choice is just in the deffinition of a "fun game."

Sorry, quick edit:

A limit on artillery favors the attacker in a defend scenario. Since its 2.5:1 or higher ratio, the defender, who generally would have better arty assets, can put in less than the attacker.

_____________________________

Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 26
- 8/7/2003 8:04:18 AM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Frank W.

Sure, that's fine. You folks and your love for the US (Viking *shudders* *turns on the light* *looks for M9 teams outside his window*)...

Me: GE

You: US

Points - Whatever.

Arty - 10%

Snipers - Sure, you get a ton of those, I'll get a ton of MG42s and some 2-man spotter teams, a wall of Sturmtigers, and you rush me, K? ;)

No, I'm fine with whatever setup, my personal favorites are infiltrators, air-drops are candy. If you're busy, I could go ahead and set it up.

It should be good. You've got the experience, I've got the... well... umm... Germans!(?)

I'm genuinely looking forward to it though.

Just let me know what is best for you buddy.

~Vath

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 27
- 8/7/2003 10:02:24 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Please be clear about what I am saying .. I am NOT advocating large masses of artillery when I say no limits / let the other guys buy what they want. I am saying that one player has no right to dictate the other players forces. I am saying that air should be decided by the computer at default settings . I am saying that one guy shouldn't be able to tailor his forces to counter the restricted choices the other player has left. I am saying that the game could use a little suprise and innovation in force compositions. And I am saying that regardless of how much arty the other guy buys there is NO reason for a game to become "bogged down" IF proper tactics are used. Shooting blind arty is at 1/4 strenght , it will quickly run out of ammo doing little damage if off board and it will quickly give itself away if onboard , or counterbattery will get it offboard or on board.
Artifical limits are a crutch that put players in a rut, they take away half of the element of tactical suprise and prevent players from fearing/ exploiting the whole map board. Arty doesn't make for WW1 type situations 5000 points on a 60 hex front ( or worse a 40 hex front) makes for WW1 type situation , folks buy the same basic core game after game , and play the same basic tactic game after game, and IMHO most PBEM is a AI rehash. I am advocating total freedom within the point limit , not to get greater amounts of arty but to force some fresh tactics , some different core forces. The other guy being able to buy anything , will force you to cover more bases , it will make one player different from another and if they are a regular opponent , it will force them to work with different cores for fear they will set a pattern you can exploit. Think People Think

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 28
- 8/7/2003 10:50:56 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I'm trying to think, but I guess i am too much of a wimp to figure out how, or maybe just too lame.

Ammo Sgt the several times we played I belive if memory severs we had limits


Frank W and Vathalios will be a good game I am looking foward to the DAR/AAR

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Post #: 29
- 8/7/2003 11:51:03 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Viking yeah I think we did , but I quit favoring them maybe my last 10-15 games and quit asking the other guy to use them my last 5 or 10 games while agreeing to abide by whatever dumb limits the other guy wanted .. it was getting to repetitive.
I am thinking of getting back into a few games after 8.0 comes out , but not with limits agree on points and use the no mines in advance except engineers ,a few points of mines in delay, mines if ya want on defense and thats it .. if folks wanna play fine if they don't fine. Big maps low points say max maps and 3000-5000 points maybe less weather visibilty and air at defaults everything on except CC and rareity.. i don't know yet , no commitment , but I think I am seeing a window in my schedual. Gawd I hope so .. I may just Veg out ..

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 30
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