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- 8/7/2003 12:03:47 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmmoSgt
[B]...it will force them to work with different cores for fear they will set a pattern you can exploit. Think People Think [/B][/QUOTE]

My easy solution to your problem is to have rarity ON. That way you and your opponent can't keep getting the same core force game after game. The rarity ON feature is quirky so it really makes for different buying situations each time.

I don't care what people buy, but I would like to be told if we are going to play "historical" or "anything goes." This is important because if there is a disconnect there, then one player is not going to be happy. I'm perfectly fine playing either way, but I want to know in advance. I don't think that is unreasonable.

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 31
- 8/7/2003 2:28:36 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Historical ???????? how is a 10% arty limit Historical? how is a defense depth of a Max 50 hexes Historical? how is having tanks in every battle Historical ? How is equal points Historical ? How is any preset Defender/ Attacker always the same Ratio Historical ?? How is dumbed down US Arty Historical ? How is equal Logistics and everybody starts with full ammo loads or the exact same ammo handicaps Historical ??? How is German Tigers and King Tigers in every gosh darn Battle as soon as they are available Historical ? Just the farquing topic of this thread rules out any Discussion of Historical Forces as far as the Germans go ..
Maybe I don't get what Historical means ???, Historical would mean playing with The Germans early in the war in 80 % of thier battles and the Allies , Once the US starts Lendlease having overwhleming Artillery and Air Support in 90 % of thier battles. Historical would mean Allied Scouts and Armor making contact and backing off while Artillery beats the heck out what they contacted.
As far as Rairity Geezze Louise , if it meant anything Historically every German tank, even the most Common ones, would have to be a 3 If Shermans and T-34's were a 1 , And Heavy German Tanks would have to be a 4 or a 5.
Historically The US , Brits and Russians would have 10 Arty Tubes for every 1 the Germans had. Historically the Germans had about 150 foot infantry maybe 20 Mech Infantry and what a dozen or so Armored Divisions, and remember the German Massed thier Armor not spent it in penny packets ? So Historically 4 battles out of 5 the Germans would have foot infantry and horse drawn support ?
What do you mean by Historical ?? please explain Historical to me ? Historical would mean for all intents and Purposes NO German Armor on the Western front after Jan 45 ? No Panthers and only 11 Tigers total on the Italian Front until after Mid 44, No King Tigers until about Sept 44 ? Historical would mean Most German Units would have next to no ammunition in any Staligrad battle the last two months and no artillery and almost all tanks would have to be stationary the last couple of months of the battle ?
Historical ROFLMAO yeah right , Please explain Historical to me .
Historical You Mean Every Bn of US Infantry would have at least a company of Armor AND a Company of TD's AND a Bn of Arty , and would be up against half thier number of foot infantry 4 battles outta 5 ? that kind of Historical ?
Or Do You mean Equal Points Historical with German Armor , usually heavy Armor with Arty Support in every battle Historical, With the Historical 16,000 German 251's ( inculding all 22 major variants ) made, being always present to run the infantry around while the US is in Trucks because only 60,000 US Halftracks and 400,000 US Jeeps were available . Or Historical as in US Mortars not having WP and having larger warheads on their artillery but all artillery of the same caliber having the same effect in the game and the 80/81/82 mm Mortars all have the same range because it is only fair and balanced Historical? that kinda Historical Good Gawd ..
Historical forces as opposed to anything goes .... explain this to me , this I gotta hear..
Rairity that has German Armor available in every battle yeah rairity really works , explain this to me really I wanna hear how this works ?

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 32
- 8/7/2003 3:08:08 PM   
rmjames

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 8/29/2002
From: Isle of wight England
Status: offline 		you are spot on with your well written reply:D

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 33
- 8/7/2003 3:46:25 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Whoups, no arty thread without some 'missioning' of our own artillerist. ;) (I meant that as a compliment, btw...)

Whoever said we imposed the 10% limit for historical reasons, it's SO NOT TRUE. We have the 10% limit because if not the PBEM games run a risk of getting unplayable due to both sides shelling the other into oblivion with 150+mm arty. :rolleyes: I've been on the receiveing end of this, and believe me it's just as funny as it sounds.

THAT is why we limit artillery. We want to fight with ground troops, not just see them hug ground for 25 turns.

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Post #: 34
- 8/7/2003 4:22:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		LOL I'll Take that as a complement ..
Come on on a 60 x 100 map you got 6000 hexes a battery effects what maybe 8 or 12 hexes .. use tactics use deception. Arty even massive Arty doesn't need to be a game stopper .. the only reason it is right now ( even as dumbed down as some Arty is , is because nobody has had to figure out a way to overcome it or negate it because everybody has been playing against limited Arty . Besides I think most folks would NOT buy exessive amounts of Arty once they found out how to avoid it and defeat it .. it ain't that hard .. uh I have been studying this situation :) .
The Object on not having limits is so the other guy can't plan on you having exactly 10% or whatever arty , no limts on Air so he can't plan to buy or not buy AA , ( although with air , you can pretty much guess if it is going to be a factor based on nation and weather and time of day ) .. I mean if ya set up on the start line on the roads and the other guy has 25% arty yeah ok yer screwed , but what if the other guy doesn't buy ANY arty and has an extra couple of platoons of tanks or an extra Company of Infanty instead or 3 platoons of mobile AAA .. thats the whole point. OK yeah even with 10% arty you could , but who does ? nobody 10% arty is not just a limit anymore .. it is a mental straight jacket and a requirement almost. Let Folks buy whatever the heck they want .. the most balanced force will still have the advantage , and even if somebody goes with 30% Arty they are just gonna mess themselves up maybe .. depends of course you could be playing somebody who thinks going first is an actual advantage and dumb stuff like that .. it is about tactics NOT percentages of stuff ... Geeze Louise at least try a game or two and at least try and work out some tactics so it is not such a game stopper .. Try and slove the problem tactically during the game not negotiate it away before the shooting even starts .
Heck maybe the other guy might even buy "Historical" forces ROFLMAO

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 35
- 8/7/2003 4:42:36 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I understand you point. :)

However, there's this small thing called "suppression". :rolleyes: With lots of arty, all you have to do is to plot your opening bombardement with a 3-4 hex separation all over your opponent's assembly area. Move in and chop up the stunned remnants. IMHO, it's gamey since artillery so easily allows for locking up large units, and there really is no way to tactically beat that except with lots of luck (enemy arty out of contact). Deception never works well in SP:WAW, movement is too restricted and you can't "masquerade" a unit since once spotted they're always identified correctly.

Maybe with C&C ON it's another story since then you'll have the command problem anyway, but as you know most players won't agree to play that way.

What I mean is, why have an arty-o-rama on the battlefield when, IMO, the game is so limited in other aspects? I'm thrilled with what Combat Leader will bring and its' "continous" area effects. :)

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Post #: 36
- 8/7/2003 5:57:39 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Bah Humbug If your biggest complaint is Arty locking large units with suppression and turning the game into WW1 then go to a 100 x 200 map with 5000 points .. that gets you a good solid Bn of maneuver Units .. about a 5 mile or 8 Km front which for a advance to combat is still on the smallish side but not that bad . plenty of room for maneuver plenty of room to hide , deception is a heck of a lot more than misidentifing a unit , How about Misidentifing a complete Company , and don't tell you can't do this in a couple of ways .. misidentfying an whole route of advance .
I biggest thing that turns this game into a toe to toe WW1 trench warfare sluging match instead of a WW2 style war of Maneuver is too many points on too small of a battle field.
For 5000 Points on a delay maybe a 120 x 100 and on defense maybe a 80 x 100.
If your units line up two deep the whole lenght on the map before you start your depoly . you KNOW the map is too small .
Go ahead get 50% of 5000 points , about 12 150/155 Batteries , on a 100x200 map and find me before I am doing you damage I'll take my 10% +/- Arty Offboard and half your offboard knocked out before you can pin a meaningful amount of my maneuver , and you are going to be severaly hurting on the map giving me a two to one advantage in manuver by doing so.
So don't tell me Arty can't be defeated by Maneuver .
What screws up more games is a too small map with too many points .. if you want a war of maneuver then you gotta have the space to use something resembling tactics ... lining folks up sholder to sholder and making them arty bait is not the fault of how much arty somebody has .. it is just lousy Tactics and a total lack of understanding of force/ frontage ratios .. thats NOT the Games Fault .. thats the players fault in most cases , in the rest the cases it is the fault of folks who set up these totally artifical limits and teach the newbies that there is some BS Reason for them to exist. I'll Bet 80% of the parrots that are yapping the 10% arty rule have never been in a high arty game , and are totally repeating the BS reasons they have heard because nobody has adjusted a map size since SPWAW was a 100 x80 max map

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 37
- 8/7/2003 6:23:45 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		Oh and when it comes to C&C concider that the whole C&C thing came from SP3 which had 250 meter hexes yet the C&C hex distance range stayed the same despite the 50 meter hexes. Couple that with a TOTALLY misassigned radio thing . I mean come on foot infantry with radios , even dismounted infantry with radios , not unless they are US .. everybody else had vehicle mounted , even the British, and I do mean Motor Vehicle , not horse carts and not run of the mill Opel Blitzes. Runners yes signal flags yes flares yes , motorcycle couriers yes . Heck in some WW2 Armies just having two wrist watches in the same unit to sycronize would be a big deal. land Lines yes in static positions. Dry cell batteries and walkie talkies US Only. sorry Franz . C&C for all of it's good intentions has not translated well to SPWAW and the maniditory upgrade of the Germans to two radios in every mess kit so they can be like the Americans is totally "fair and balanced BS Historical" .
Get the Force/ frontage right and most of the "too much arty" BS goes away.
By Doctrine the Halftracks are 100-150 meters / yards behind the dismounted infantry in direct support with the MG's thats the C&C limit in SPWAW . You know why the 251/9's and 251/10's have only room for 5 ? think it is the gun ? Nope Radio was so dang big took up more room than the gun in the troop area .. gun was overhead for the most part .

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 38
- 8/7/2003 6:42:05 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmmoSgt
[B]Get the Force/ frontage right and most of the "too much arty" BS goes away. [/B][/QUOTE]


There's the essence of it all.

With much different force/frontage ratios than is the "norm" today, I won't have a problem with 'unlimited' artillery. Then excessive artillery would indeed hamper your ability to locate/fight the enemy, all that units vs. artillery priorities. :)

I agree with you mostly, if that isn't clear already. But since we usually play with huge (5-8000p) armies in cramped areas, too much artillery [I]will[/I] ruin the gameplay. I'm not saying this is ideal, I'd rather fight with less on more surface, but this is the norm and this is why we have experimented to find that a 10%-15% limit doesn't upset the game too much yet allows for effective fire support. This isn't perfect either, but most is happy with it at the moment. And again you're right in that it is sort of a 'straightjacket' for developing your tactical skills but hey, the limitation isn't carved in rock, I'd be happy to try something different.

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Post #: 39
- 8/7/2003 7:08:54 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		perhaps we can find a cosenus about that arty thing ? i´m starting 2 games next time with 2 guys from the board, so it would be helpful to have limits that everybody agrees on.

questions are:

a)what kind of arty count into the limit ? 81mm and above or ALL indirect fire ?

b)what about FO + ammo count that in or not ??

c) how much ammo trucks etc. should be allowed? let´s say 1 truck or dump for 4 pieces or so ? or is it not important ? i mean if a player decides to buy much ammo it´s his personal thing, or ? they are quite expensive, so that "money" would then not available to buy combat troops

d) also accepted point rates would be cool to standardize a little. let´s say in meetings the usual rules apply.. while in assault scens the attacker should have more points + arty... 2:1 or so perhaps ?

e) what about "special rare weapons" like sturmtiger,jagdtiger,flametanks etc... big diameter rocket weapons ( katjushas, nebelwerfer ) were also not that common...

or just throw it all over and do what ammo sgt. says: buy what you want :D

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Post #: 40
- 8/7/2003 7:14:25 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]There's the essence of it all.

With much different force/frontage ratios than is the "norm" today, I won't have a problem with 'unlimited' artillery. Then excessive artillery would indeed hamper your ability to locate/fight the enemy, all that units vs. artillery priorities. :)
[/B][/QUOTE]

if you want to play more "historic" than
the german late war player mostly would have a problem, because on all fronts the enemies had air + arty suppority ranging from 1:3 up to 1:10 ( see perhaps the last eastern front battles and the d-day - here the support from ships makes quite a difference, too ). while i can only think of a german suppority in arty at the beginning of the ardennes offensive..

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Post #: 41
- 8/7/2003 7:24:55 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]There's the essence of it all.

With much different force/frontage ratios than is the "norm" today, I won't have a problem with 'unlimited' artillery. Then excessive artillery would indeed hamper your ability to locate/fight the enemy, all that units vs. artillery priorities. :)

I agree with you mostly, if that isn't clear already. But since we usually play with huge (5-8000p) armies in cramped areas, too much artillery [I]will[/I] ruin the gameplay. I'm not saying this is ideal, I'd rather fight with less on more surface, but this is the norm and this is why we have experimented to find that a 10%-15% limit doesn't upset the game too much yet allows for effective fire support. This isn't perfect either, but most is happy with it at the moment. And again you're right in that it is sort of a 'straightjacket' for developing your tactical skills but hey, the limitation isn't carved in rock, I'd be happy to try something different. [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly and the whole reason it is the "norm" to fight large groups on small battlefields is because the ONLY example of tactics most players have is the AI , You cram up the battlefield with units and whine about limiting stuff you don't understand and you never have to even learn tactics .,.. you just use first person shooter concepts and hope for the best .. it is really sad .
Folks who don't even understand frontage ( other than "frontage" means their are 5 victory hex groups instead of three duh ) much less study actual tactics and think Historical means tanks in every battle are the ones running the game development with their toadying syncophant BS among the clic that does the OB's .. it's a crying shame.
Frank W there is not a right or wrong way to do arty .. there is NOTHING in any rule book that says 10% or 81mm are in or out or ammo trucks count or don't count , all that stuff only favors the Germans , and if you ain't playing the Germans and are falling for the limit BS you are getting screwed by the more experienced players who are talking advantage of the newbies with this nonsense .. pure and simple

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 42
- 8/7/2003 8:03:21 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vathailos [/i

Just let me know what is best for you buddy.

~Vath [/B][/QUOTE]

how about a ammo sgt. game ?

no rules at all.

and remember: in H2H the US is somewhat weaker than in normal SPWAW.

we play H2H , or ?

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Post #: 43
- 8/7/2003 8:31:54 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		Sure, but I've never used it. I'll have to find the link and install it when I get home from work.

I've promised Dwayne I'd do this for a week, and have been unusually busy.

I've got 7.1 installed now, but H2H is fine, want to make a scenario up?

If it operates like 7.1 (the play mechanics), I should be fine.

I really like the idea of upgraded OOBs. Are there any that are "broken" in H2H on the GE side? Just like to know prior to purchase, so I don't by 50 of them ;).

Look forward to it. Let me know when you're ready. I'm playing 5 games right now, but seem to get them played quickly (even forgot to watch the VCR in the latest with Wombat :eek:, that one's a bloodbath).

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 44
- 8/8/2003 12:09:21 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vathailos
I really like the idea of upgraded OOBs. Are there any that are "broken" in H2H on the GE side? Just like to know prior to purchase, so I don't by 50 of them ;).

Look forward to it. Let me know when you're ready. I'm playing 5 games right now, but seem to get them played quickly (even forgot to watch the VCR in the latest with Wombat :eek:, that one's a bloodbath). [/B][/QUOTE]

we can play normal SPWAW , too.

your choice . i don´t mind.

we can wait till we play, too.

i have 4 games in the moment in 2
i´m not very good ( or better my units suck ) these 2 are against viking + rbrunsman as german :(

while my russian game goes okay ( will be a draw i think ) i wonder how much 85mm side hits tigers + panthers can take from near distance in H2H before blowing up :mad:

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Post #: 45
Fair enough - 8/8/2003 1:43:53 AM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		How about this. I'll make a battle in H2H.fr with the following (assuming I can manage)

ME: GE

YOU: US

Points: 8000

Map: Random

Weather: Random

Visibility: Random

Restrictions: None (muwahahaha!)

Historical Controls: All except "C&C" and "Rarity" turned ON

Date: some time after say OCT 1944?

If this is OK, please let me know.

See you on what promises to be one ugly battlefield :D

~Vath

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 46
- 8/8/2003 2:16:01 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Frank in H2H take a good look at your tanks ammo load out, so far I have found some of my Russian tanks have very limited amounts of AP and Heat rounds.


And if you figure out how to kill Tigers, in H2H let me know

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 47
- 8/8/2003 4:12:25 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		ammo sgt, I think, in your enthusiasm, you forget that, first and foremost, this is a GAME. The object is to make it fun to play. To me, it is merely a fancy game of chess.

I don't change my "standard rule set" based on what country I'm playing. I play whatever country my opponent wants me to play and none of my "standard rules" are carved in stone. I freely accept whatever is suggested. So for you to suggest that it's all a big conspiracy against the newbies is B.S. I seldom get the feeling during game setup negotiations that my opponent is trying to box me into a corner so he can win more easily. I certainly don't do it.

To me "Historical" = anything that isn't a clearly game mechanics influenced purchase (e.g. heavy AAA being able to move and shoot when small AAA cannot do so, etc.).

You shouldn't assume that your definition of a word is the one that the writer meant when you read a post. Sometimes a single word is used as a shorthand for a much longer meaning and most people usually understand it as such.:rolleyes:

It is a game after all.

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 48
- 8/8/2003 5:49:40 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I don't think AmmoSgt is saying that you do it to intentionally box your opponent into a corner, nor your opponent to do the same to you; I think the result is you put yourself in a box. Agreed, some things are a lot more annoying than others. I don't like mines, air power, masses of arty, and I hate infiltrators -- mostly when they're on the other side ;) . They were part of the WW II battlefiled, however, and to adequately portray the tactical situation, I prefer learning to live with them. Variety and surprise add to the game -- otherwise it gets repetitious.

There have been occasions when I've wondered if my opponent bothered to buy any regular infantry -- especially when I see about three companies of armor, lots of those scouts and more bazooka squads than I can count. I don't ask they be limited, I just go about trying to find a way to stop them before I get wiped out. A good challenge is more than just an even match of points/arty/armor/what have you.

IMHO the challenge is defeating any force I come up against -- or at least putting up a decent fight. :D

I'm not saying others do not feel that way. I'm saying too many limits reduce the options, which reduces the variety, which reduces the need to get creative. To me it's a detriment leading to a sameness of tactics across the board.

As for the AAA thing rbrunsman mentioned: Big guns take longer to set up and the ammo is slower to load. A RR gun can't be dropped and working in the same time as a small field gun. (Extreme example, I know) but the principal is the same.

_____________________________

Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 49
(should have done this earlier) - 8/8/2003 12:18:06 PM   
Vathailos

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/13/2003
From: In a van, down by the river.
Status: offline 		My apologies for diluting what is otherwise an interesting discussion in-progress.

Quick note to Frank W.

Take a look in the AAR/DAR Forum ;)

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 50
Rb has some good points. - 8/8/2003 9:31:49 PM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		Its all too easy to try to compare this game to history and find faults. One of the big attractions for me is its evolving nature. We ALL combine to try to make the game more enjoyable. There are countless versions of it since SP1. Each with its own pluses and faults.

I have been on both sides of 30% plus artillery. You cannot hide from it for long on any size map. You must mass to make an attack and when the mass is found...well... I have tried various limits on all types of units to balance the game and make it more of a challenge. The game , as a game, needs balance. As history? Well, history is always written by the victors and is slanted in its truth as such. The loser is seldom the good guy. But in a game, the loser is often the good guy.

We all pretend to be in command of "real" armies. Gladly, its not real, and then again it is. Its a real game with real limitations not unlike the playing of a trump card in Bridge. You may only do so if certain conditions are met. If you wish to hold all trump cards, you might have trouble finding opponents.

You make for interesting reading, Ammosgt. As it applies to game, if we all wanted "no holds barred" it would be the norm rather than the exception. The players decide, negotiate look for a challenge and it is that which has brought a new dimension to the game. The banter, discussion and brotherhood of the forums, for most of themembers, is as important or more important than the game itself.

It is very correct to say that this does not reflect historical facts. It has, however, history as its base and that is another appeal. We can all look at and many touch and feel the equipment that we purport to command. We can all compare our exploits with those of history as well as our fellow players. You are also correct in that we are missing many challenges of the game. Many of the challenges that you allude to have beed tried. Large Maps , one gun per meter of front. Massed armour, no amour, little armour. Some of this , lots of that. What the experienced players bring to the newbies is just that, experience in what makes an enjoyable game. They are free to set their own limits. There is no conspiracy. If a new player comes along with new tactics and methods that win (or lose) they are discussed for all to decide whether or not they condone or abhor the methods.

I am a proponent of "Gary's rules of engagement". From my experience, this is the most complete list of what makes for an interesting game. I would like to see it or its like incorporated as a standard of play with no restrictions of variations, of course. Even though we have a manual of play we do not have a bill of rights or a constitution, if you like. Something that defines fairplay while allowing for your own ideas to come forth and be welcomed. No one would object to anyone playing under whatever conditions they want and can get an opponent to agree to.

I am still waiting for this challenge from VikingNo2
"[B]Join us next time fight fans, when the only stipulation on the game is that I have to fight with 3 snipers and a Ammo truck with a vis of one. But that will be fair because the other guy only get tanks.[/B] ":) :rolleyes:

I think he might win.:eek:

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 51
- 8/9/2003 12:08:32 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Challage is on the Opponents want forum Mr Buzzard, did not want to invade this intresting post

(in reply to Paddington)
Post #: 52
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