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Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 4:43:03 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		I am playing Axis and we are in July 1942. Allies have invaded Portugal and are slowly building up there.
Spain is still neutral and Vichy France also.

Thus, I can't even fortify a defensive line in the Pyrenees.

So what should I do? Wait?




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Post #: 1
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 7:00:15 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Let them attack Spain and build up on their border think of where you want to delay and defend.

If you built 8 subs they would have other troubles.


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RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 8:35:49 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me and Alvaro should fix this so the Allies can't DoW Portugal. This is bogus gameplay.

My advice to Star Trek is to bend over and kiss his behind goodbye! Scotty can't beam him up. Plus he should have been smarter about using subs to counter a large fleet maneuver like this. There are uses for subs besides convoy raiding. Plus with Diplomacy the Axis could connive Spain into entry with plenty of chances to sway Spain diplomatically. No need to invade England.

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Post #: 3
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 9:06:04 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Do you have enough Axis around to take out Vichy out? If yes, then I would take out Vichy France and build a defense along the border of France and Spain. I would not wait. Any air you can spare from the Russian front I would bring as close to the border for air interdiction and supply interdiction. I agree with Alvaro, move some subs around to interdict and some surface fleets, hopefully they are available. The more transport ships you sink crossing, the less you need to worry about on land. When they do come across, the mountains and rough terrain will make a good defensive line when you dig in. Good luck and have fun.

Show the UK and US that resistance is futile.....

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RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 10:13:34 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

There are uses for subs besides convoy raiding.


I must say that I often give only minimal escort to my land units transported across sea as German subs in our games are only raiding (or raiding 99% of the time). A switch from time to time to on map anti-shipping could have surprised me the wrong way a few times!

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Post #: 5
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 11:33:59 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		As the Allies you should be focusing on taking out Italy. I don't know how well your Barb is doing or Battle of the Atlantic.

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Post #: 6
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/12/2020 11:45:19 PM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		I'm @ncc1701e opponent. So I´m going to answer by the comments that I´m aimed towards me (or at least, by that Im think ids directed against me).
First and foremost...no one except me and mty opponent have a goddam idea about the hell that have been BOA in our game, so maybe instead of telling my opponent about how much subs the should have used, would be better to ask him if he have used them at all.
Since some military disaster (that I´m not going to discuss here) that happenned during the game in summer '40, @ncc1701e choosed for a '42 Barbarossa, as well he solved that disaster. So between summer '40 and summer '41 he released hell onm my merchant navy. And when I said hell I meant the loss of 189 MM and 1 carrier. So be sure that if he had been unable to stop that invasion is because I have to work my ass to remove him from the Atlantic. Kudos to you ncc1701e, you made me bleed there for real.
Portugal invasion was also the result of something that happened in Africa, and that also commented with my opponent.
This said, @Omnius:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me and Alvaro should fix this so the Allies can't DoW Portugal. This is bogus gameplay.


I think that your comment it's at least innapropiate. I'm just doing what the game let me do, and as far as I know I did not see you making this kind of comment in any thread in wich Axis players did a Sea LIon in wich they conquered all England except Liverpool, in order to get Spain in the Axis sides but avoiding an automatic US entry.
I can admit that invading Portugal is really cheap for the allies... as It was get Yugoslavia to the Axis or the fact the we can DOW Netherlands and Belgium one by one.
These situations are design decisions and we have to live with them (until the developer feel the need to fix them). Of course, if my opponent and I reach an agreement regarding some matters, for me that is like if that was written in the rulebook...everything else is free for all.

(in reply to Nirosi)
Post #: 7
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 4:15:06 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		You're facing the one place where an Allied Land Army can get fully supplied and access to both France, Italy and eventually Germany without immediate recourse. You can build all the u-boats you like and you can fortify the Hills... You will need a large army to defend against this. I have done it but the reality is how well as you've done up until this point in other regions is going to dictate how well you deal with this. If you have done poor you will likely get overrun and if you've done well you will likely have the forces to face this invasion force. D-Day happens in '42 in this game usually. . . The U-boats in The Dev's Theory would have eaten enough of the Production up to prevent this being an issue at this point, which I do think is possible. However you would then have an anemic force to face The USSR down since you've put up at least 1000-1500 in U-Boats. So -4 Panzers on the Eastern Front which could be essential...

Italy needs to be defended and so does France. I have faced this against 2 opponents and beat one cause the USSR was battered half to death and failed vs another cause I bled myself as the Axis too much. This isn't the end of the game, 2 or 3 hills and impassable mountains means you have 'some time'... to do something? But now you choose? Every decision made from '39 till now will dictate winner or loser soon! Or stalemate?

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/13/2020 4:17:12 AM >

(in reply to malkarma)
Post #: 8
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 7:13:28 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		I have seen the US transports coming.

I do not remember exactly but I have try before with Bismarck Grp to attack a surface fleet. It was at sea in Raider mode and I have taken the risk to go in Fleet mode. All I got was fail to find enemy. Thus, I did not even imagine attacking the transports with my surface or sub fleets.

Will try the next PBEM game. Now this is too late.

At least, a good Battle of Atlantic. I did not notice your carrier.

quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

And when I said hell I meant the loss of 189 MM and 1 carrier


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 9
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 8:21:29 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me This is bogus gameplay.



This is a ridiculous and deeply offensive comment. This is a game which sets out to give both sides many opportunities to do ahistorical moves. If there is too much freedom for your taste, you can agree house rules to curb some of them and/or play other games which are more restrictive.

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RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 11:36:28 AM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		Thanks

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Post #: 11
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 4:36:08 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@sillyflower - This is the kind of ahistorical garbage that paradox games puts in it's pathetic line of games. Sorry but the Allies weren't the ones going around invading peaceful countries, this is a pathetic bending of history just to get a sneaky underhanded advantage. I'd say that if Spain goes Axis then the Allies get to invade Portugal if the Axis doesn't do so first.

This is why I don't play PBEM, way too many cheaters who'll play any dirty trick to win.

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Post #: 12
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 4:38:57 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@malkarma - Yep the Yugoslavia cheap trick has been fixed and now Alvaro needs to fix this situation. I guess for now one cheap trick deserves another huh? Sorry but this is why I don't waste my time playing PBEM.

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Post #: 13
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 4:58:16 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		@Malkarma
I just want to say that I meant no offence and hope none was taken with my response to the map above. If there was, I'd like to apologize. I thought I was responding to one of those Armchair General type scenarios, what would you do in a situation like this.

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RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 5:56:09 PM   
Cigar King

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 10/10/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry but the Allies weren't the ones going around invading peaceful countries, this is a pathetic bending of history just to get a sneaky underhanded advantage. I'd say that if Spain goes Axis then the Allies get to invade Portugal if the Axis doesn't do so first.


Personally I agree with this. The Allies can invade anyone, and it's completely ahistorical. The Allies should suffer serious consequences for invading a neutral, with the possible exception of Norway.

I'd suggest making Allied DoW an option, similar to diplomacy. Fortunately single player has little of this. I understand house rules accomplish this for PvP, but, if we're going to have a WW2 game, it should model WW2.

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Post #: 15
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 6:23:55 PM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@Malkarma
I just want to say that I meant no offence and hope none was taken with my response to the map above. If there was, I'd like to apologize. I thought I was responding to one of those Armchair General type scenarios, what would you do in a situation like this.

You don't need to apologize me to me. I don't see any kind of comment by your side that would have been considered disrecpectful or offensive by any kind of sentient form of life

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Post #: 16
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 6:30:12 PM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

@malkarma - Yep the Yugoslavia cheap trick has been fixed and now Alvaro needs to fix this situation. I guess for now one cheap trick deserves another huh? Sorry but this is why I don't waste my time playing PBEM.


If you think that that was a cheap trick, I´m going to assume that you nbever played (and will never play) WWII tabletop games.
Because I´m going to tell you a secret...in every goddamm WWII game at strategical level, as soon as the US enters the war every neutral country is free fire area for the allies. IUn all of them.
Unless of course you think that WiF (and most of the games of this kind) are just tools to allow the devious minds of the players perform any obnoxious kind of ahistorical attrocity that crosses their mind.
This said, I really think that you are looking for a more railroaded game than this one. Maybe operational level ones are what you are looking for.

ps: I not really give a damn about what do you think, you are entitled to have an opinion, but you need to stop the "people are cheating" motto just because they do something that you think it shouldn´t be done.
ps2: Sorry for double post. I was quoting two different persons.
ps3: Fixed for typos.

< Message edited by malkarma -- 9/13/2020 7:02:14 PM >

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 17
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 8:15:18 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@malkarma,
I've been playing board games since the mid 1960's, solitaire and with others. Computer games since the advent of those solitaire and with others. If you haven't noticed I'm using a WiF unit icon, yes I play WiF and no I don't play crazy ahistorical strategies, I prefer plodding along rather historically and seeing if I can improve on that. I can think of quite devious moves but feel them beneath me.

Allowing the Allies to DoW Portugal makers a mockery of history and the whole Overlord problem the Allies faced. Invading Portugal is the easy way out for the Allies to do Overlord, obviously you eschewed taking on the problem of Overlord the tough historical way, through North Africa, Italy and France. You took the easy path of hiding behind Spain while you build up your invasion farce and can then blow through Spain at your leisure. Very Brave!

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Post #: 18
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/13/2020 8:41:29 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@Alvaro,
I sure hope you'll look at how allowing the Allies to invade Portugal makes a mockery of history and your game. Why should any Allied player ever bother with the historical Overlord strategy if they're allowed to invade Portugal while hiding behind a neutral Spain? If the Axis player doesn't assume the worst and start preparing for this ahistorical cheap trick then this exploit of a bad rule will become standard operating procedure. Please fix this so that the Allies can't invade Portugal or any neutral country for that matter, it just wasn't in their nature. Yes Britain and France were tempted to make war on the USSR very early on because it stabbed their pal Poland in the back with Hitler. However they quickly realized that folly and throughout the war they never did the dastardly deed because they had ethics. Sadly too many players will throw ethics and historical reality out the window if they can exploit a poorly offered feature. Please don't allow the Allies to become the Axis, the other Evil Empire.

Right now I'm looking at France and Italy early on. How to exploit the new French colony garrison rule as the French. I'm sending oil to France from the UK and timing my colony bug out so that I can then use France to DoW Italy, but not the UK. If Italy does the DoW that tends to follow history. If Italy passes then I can DoW with France so I've got a few turns to abuse the French Navy in the Med while Italy is low on oil and will need big oil trade from Germany to catch up. There wouldn't even be a diplomatic penalty with the USA if this is done. It should work so that if the French do the colony bugout then Italy has the opportunity to DoW France but not the other way around. No UK first either, follow history and force it so that Italy makes the call and when it does that.

Ditto with Norway, the Allies should never be allowed to invade a neutral Norway. Too easy then to take Narvik then DoW Sweden and take the Iron before the Axis can respond. Considering how the Nordic trade route works to make it easy prey for British subs I definitely don't do the first turn trick any longer, not even against myself. When the Iron runs through the Nordic route the Allies will have their opportunity to raid it.

I prefer historical games that aren't too loose with history the way paradox's HOI4 warps reality beyond belief. I prefer they channel us into a fairly historical path, certainly with some deviation within historical guidelines.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 19
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/14/2020 5:41:57 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		Allies did quite a bit of throwing their weight around. Even if you don't count all the countries the USSR invaded.
Iceland - occupied in May 40.
Ireland - UK took a few ports over.
Portugal - allowed US to use base in Azores, but they already had close alliance ties to UK.
Iran - occupied by Allies.
North Africa (Vichy) - invaded by US.
Iraq - seems there was a civil war there supported by UK air. UK seized some oil fields.
Norway - UK planned to invade, Germans got there first.

I am not sure how much advantage Portugal is to the UK. While easy to take it will absorb a lot of their early Landing capacity. Once there they will have to garrison it. As an invasion route to France and Germany, it isn't all that great. Major bottleneck at border between France and Germany. I've only had one opponent use this route. They lost.

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Post #: 20
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/14/2020 10:09:37 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		WP is a WW2 grand strategy game based on history. It is not a historical simulation.

As for invading Norway, Portugal, Sweden.... It is much harder than you think and it also gives the Germans plenty of resources they need.

Norway they get a free corps if Norway is invaded.
They get 15 MMs and a naval unit. This creates a massive change in the battle of the Atlantic as usually the Allies get these.
They get 100% of their production.
It is easier for Germany to reinforce Norway than the Allies.
With the new map the Allies can't even invade Oslo which is a supply source for Germany but not the Allies.

Sweden gets a corps at the iron ore mines if Norway is attacked
Germany now gets 50 resources from Sweden. And say they lose Narvik. They haven't lost anything. Fine they lose the route but Sweden still produces for themselves. Also now you gave Germany 220 points of land units, extra logistics, naval unit, and air unit.

Spain
Portugal sure the Allies can take it. If they DOW on Spain now they gave Germany 10 extra resources, 2 naval groups, 175 points in land units, air unit, and a very good terrain. But you gave me an idea and I will add mobilization of extra units if the Allies take Portugal.

On top of all this WP has a layer of critical thinking in the management of resources which takes many games to grab on to. They Allies can do well in Spain if they choose that route but I have already experienced a game where they went that route and got kicked off by the Axis in 1943. Or another route where they landed and got stuffed. They did move the line forward but it cost them so much they were left with no choice but to continue pushing through the mountain line at the Pyrenees.

This game has a lot of strategic planning involved. Games might get wild early on with inexperienced players doing crazy stuff and their counters or lack there of but when you have 2 experienced players going at it the game becomes more like poker and chess combined.

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 9/14/2020 10:11:13 PM >

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 21
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/14/2020 10:51:32 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Norway they get a free corps if Norway is invaded.
They get 15 MMs and a naval unit. This creates a massive change in the battle of the Atlantic as usually the Allies get these.
They get 100% of their production.



I see in the intro screen that they would get a free corp and their is a shift +15 towards Axis for Italy,....if Norway is invaded by the allies, but I don't see that they get 15MMs and a Naval Unit. Where is that info? Is it in the manual?

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Post #: 22
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 12:25:43 AM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		Those MM and nval units are the starting ones of Norway. So if Allies invade Germany will get them, like the UK get the dutch ones whe we invade The Netherlands.

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Post #: 23
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 5:06:20 AM   
Magpius


Posts: 1632
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		If this game was a purely historical simulation... Germany never wins, all an axis player can do is what? change the date and time they lose?
I can watch a documentary for that. On repeat.

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Post #: 24
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 5:56:49 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		My opinion is that the Western Allies would have invaded Portugal if they felt it was necessary to prosecute the War. The Allies did in fact invade Portuguese territory in December 41, namely the occupation of East Timor. They also had plans (Operation Alacrity) to occupy the Azores. The latter Operation was never carried out only because the Portuguese agreed to allow the British (and later the Americans) the use of bases there.

My first problem is that if the Allies had invaded Portugal there is no doubt that Spain would have immediately joined the Axis, or at a minimum, invited Axis units to enter Spain. Franco was not an idiot (very much the opposite actually); he would have known that the only reason the Allies would invade Portugal would be as a prelude to attacking Spain. Of course, the same can be said for Belgium if the Axis had invaded the Netherlands. So it is a little two faced to ask that Spain will join the Axis if Portugal is invaded by the Allies (or vice versa actually) without also asking for Belgium to join the Allies if the Axis invade the Netherlands. So I think this rule she just be left as it is, even if it is, IMHO, ahistorical.

The other problem I have is that it is relatively easy for the Allies to conquer Spain in 1 turn. Madrid with its 2 strength unit is a piece of cake for an armour unit coming from Portugal. Bilbao with its 2 strength defender can be taken out by invasion as can Barcelona with its 2 strength defender. I did this myself in a recent game (well actually I took out Barcelona with a unit moving overland from Southern France, but I could have invaded as well). So I am glad to hear that Alvaro will be making some changes to the Spanish setup.


(in reply to Magpius)
Post #: 25
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 12:20:49 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		You need all the production locations to take them out.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 26
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 1:26:15 PM   
Nirosi

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 9/17/2017
Status: offline 		I wonder if a compromise could be to make it slightly more difficult for the Allies to use Portugal? A small reduction of the port just South of Lisbon (from 9 to 6 for example) would mean the equivalent of 2 large corps less. Still feasible to mount a large scale operation, but at least a little more complicated. For each size port, it is 2 less divisions.... once a sweet spot of units is found/agreed by Alvaro, that port can be adjusted for balance if necessary?

This of course an be done also with the other adjustments proposed...


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 27
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 2:52:09 PM   
malkarma

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		The I think that we need to do something with Ireland. It´s freaking easy to invade it by the germans in order to take Belfast by land.


ps: The irony here is that I didn't needed the Invasion of Portugal and Spain. I virtually won the game in '40 summer in Greece (I stopped cold the A>xis there, including several corps destroyed); in '41 summer when I conquered Italian NA (the rest was conquered in '42 spring) and in '42 summer in the URSS (I managed to stop the axis several hexes away of Minsk and Kiev, desstroying 4 armour corps in the process). I could have waited 1 year to build up troops and do a '43 overlord, or I could do this and check what kind of damage can suffer the Axis there. At this point I´m testing things just in behalf of my curiosity.
Anyways I don't give a damn more about this issue.

(in reply to Nirosi)
Post #: 28
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 6:39:04 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Norway they get a free corps if Norway is invaded.
They get 15 MMs and a naval unit. This creates a massive change in the battle of the Atlantic as usually the Allies get these.
They get 100% of their production.
It is easier for Germany to reinforce Norway than the Allies.
With the new map the Allies can't even invade Oslo which is a supply source for Germany but not the Allies.


I haven't checked this one from the Axis point of view, but from the Allied side the UK receives 48 Merchants if Germany invades Norway. Very nice addition to the UK's Battle of the Atlantic.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 29
RE: Portugal: help needed - 9/15/2020 6:56:35 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I've been checking 1939 scenario: Sorry for all the posts
I just declared war on the first turn on everyone.





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