Operation Folgore, destroying runnways?

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Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/10/2020 8:11:14 PM

Swant

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In the briefing to the senario Operation Folgore, it says you get 100 points for destroying runnways.
But runnways can't be destroyed, correct?
I have caused 99% damage to a few runnways, but no points.
Anyone have thoughts on this?

Post #: 1

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/10/2020 9:54:33 PM

thewood1

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That's pretty old scenario. I saw it came out in the community scenario pack under CMNAO. It hasn't been touched in looks like six years. I think something was changed about single unit airfields a while ago in one of the later CMNAO releases that might have impacted it. The only thing I can think of tracking down the author and see if its been updated.

Whenever you play a really old CMNAO scenario, you have to pay attention to if its been updated or if it is doing something that got significantly changed in recent CMNAO and CMO releases.

(in reply to Swant)

Post #: 2

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/10/2020 11:43:51 PM

pbrowne

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From: Perth, Western Australia
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I asked about whether runways can be destroyed at:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4864960

and quoted Dimitris from the Steam CMO forum:

quote:

As we've said repeatedly, open-air facilities cannot be destroyed 100% with conventional weapons.

This was on the Shifting Sands scenario Hit Hard Hit Fast on the 1968 Six Day War's Operation Moked (Focus). In that scenario the runway destruction is required to get full points; the trigger is for Egyptian Facility Destroyed of type 'Unit is Destroyed' not 'Unit is Damaged'

Never got a reply.

I guess it doesn't matter if runways can't be destroyed (i.e. beyond repair/restoration) or not. What matters is the degree of damage achieved to be successful (e.g. 75%), but I don't think this is currently possible to set, i.e. a percentage of damage.

On this, there was talk I think of having a runway repair facility...

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/10/2020 11:48:14 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 3

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/10/2020 11:49:31 PM

thewood1

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What I'm not sure of is if something was changed between 2014 and 2017 when D mentioned that. It could also be that the scenario designers in 2014 didn't understand how airfields and scoring worked.

There are a lot of older scenarios that were very good at the time, but haven't aged well as more features were added or we understand more how the game works.

(in reply to pbrowne)

Post #: 4

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 12:01:01 AM

pbrowne

Posts: 147
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OK, but I think there should be the functionality to specify when creating a scenario, a degree of damage that renders the unit/facility to become non-operational. This could apply to facilities, as well as larger units like aircraft carriers and other large ships that require RTB for repair.

At the moment, from what I have discovered in my limited time with the game, is the trigger is either damaged or destroyed. I guess though that this all depends on what currently constitutes 'damage' in the logic that makes a unit non-operational, a bit, a lot? Possibly it may be useful when designing scenarios to specify this degree that takes a unit out of operation.

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/11/2020 12:07:14 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 5

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 12:08:21 AM

thewood1

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I know there are a number of threads from a few years ago that laid out what it takes to make a runway In-Op. In the meantime, here is an updated scenario with the scoring set to kick in at 95% damage. Try that and see if it works.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to pbrowne)

Post #: 6

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 12:22:05 AM

pbrowne

Posts: 147
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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OK, I guess this percentage is set through a Lua script then.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 7

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 12:53:25 AM

thewood1

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No its not Lua. In the event editor, a trigger is set for a destroyed runway. That is supposed to kick off an action that increments the score 100 points. But because the runway is never quite destroyed, the trigger never activates, hence no score.

All I did was change the trigger to a "damage runway" trigger. I set the damage for 90%. I just ran a couple tests in scenario and confirmed that between 80& and 90% damage, the runway is in-op. I I figured if you hit 90%, you can call it damaged enough to get the points. Changing scoring things like this is one of the easiest things you can do in the scenario editor.

The question is what it takes to repair. Never tested that before. Might play around with it while sitting on some inane conference calls at work. Or since the Patriots aren't playing tomorrow, maybe then.

If the original designer has an issue with it, he can have the mods delete the attachment.

Edit: I think this is an example of designers not knowing what destroying a runway meant back then. I could be completely wet on a lot of my assumptions, but its the best I got. And interestingly, my test of runway repair showed 0.1% over 24 hours. So 95% damage is basically a mission kill for the runway over 99% of CMO scenarios.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/11/2020 1:15:16 AM >

(in reply to pbrowne)

Post #: 8

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 2:53:11 AM

pbrowne

Posts: 147
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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OK, thanks, I missed the drop down for the percent selector for the Event Trigger 'Unit is Damaged'. There appears to be no option to change a trigger then from destroyed type to damaged type. You would need to create a new trigger, is that correct? I should read some scenario creating tutorials...

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/11/2020 2:58:06 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 9

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 3:08:26 AM

thewood1

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I created the new damage trigger. Then I deleted the destroyed one. Then I had to go into the event and re-select the trigger.

Sometimes you have to be careful messing around with stuff like this in newer scenarios. A lot of newer scenarios use lua and you have no superficial way to see if any lua functions are in some way using triggers/actions/etc.

(in reply to pbrowne)

Post #: 10

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 6:22:51 AM

KnightHawk75

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re: Repair part of this.
Just an example (unless you want to wait a week in game):
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4820766

Some other info on strats regarding what it takes and how the single unit facilities and general air facilities get disabled might be worth knowing. (I get that here the only concern was a specific runway - just providing for those interested, if none than ignore)

%'s it takes, what happens when RAP's are hit but Runways are fine,etc...
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4845648

Little back and forth about consideration for pop-runway repair script\feature. (still thinking about it)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4844108

Some tricks of the trade for using single-unit airbases to reduce unit count, while still offering up targets to destroy\disable said airbase with normal munitions via extrenal runways\raps.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4838499

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 10/11/2020 11:18:01 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 11

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 6:38:46 AM

Swant

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Ok good stuff, thanks

(in reply to KnightHawk75)

Post #: 12

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/11/2020 2:10:44 PM

decaf

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Joined: 8/1/2008
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Dear Swant

You are quite right. There are some old scenarios that have/had scoring tied
to destroyed runways (destroyed as in -- not on the map anymore).

See the thread, and post #7 by Dimitris, Oct 24, 2017 @ 2:07pm
https://steamcommunity.com/app/321410/discussions/0/1483232961051567859/

Note it is possible to destroy a runway (destroyed as in -- not on the map anymore),
but it takes a nuke.

CMANO / CMO has an incremental damage model described by Dimitris, 7/6/2017 8:15:30 PM
Note post #15 of:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4310316

The key extract:
------------------------------------------------------------
* At between 75% and 100% integrity level (ie. 0-25% damage), the runway can handle very large aircraft.
* Between 50% and 75% integrity it can handle up to large aircraft.
* Between 25% and 50% integrity it can handle up to medium aircraft.
* Between 10% and 25% integrity it can handle up to small aircraft.
* Between 1% and 10% integrity only STOVL aircraft or helicopters can operate

And, just to provide some context:
------------------------------------------------------------
very large aircraft (26.1-75m long) C-5B Galaxy
large aircraft (18.1-26m long) F-15E Strike Eagle
medium aircraft (12.1-18m long) F-35A Lightning II
small aircraft ( 0 -12m long) RQ-1B Predator UAV
STOVL/helicopters AH-64D Apache Longbow

So, you see, it is possible to get a mission kill on a runway, depending on
the type of aircraft it serves. Also note, at the end of the Dimitris post:
"We do also model repairs...". So that, for a long scenario, one may need to
go back and re-damage a runway.

For these old scenarios, I would easily recommend firing up the editor, and
altering the scoring criteria to some damage number in the ranges indicated above.
And for new scenario designers, I would also suggest the same if you want to
reward your players for runway carnage. <smile>

(in reply to Swant)

Post #: 13

RE: Operation Folgore, destroying runnways? - 10/12/2020 1:01:37 AM

pbrowne

Posts: 147
Joined: 8/7/2020
From: Perth, Western Australia
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This sounds like there is an assumption that damage is only towards one end of a strip. That is, the Minimal Operating Strip (MOS) at one end of the strip is reduced as damage is increased. Or the MOS is composed of sections that are usable. The latter would require the aircraft to either be able to navigate around the damage (craters and spall, which would be everywhere...), or else have Minimal Airfield Operating Surfaces (MAOS) which include taxiways, to enable access to the MOS sections. Otherwise, the only option would be to access the MOS section/s would be off the MAOS and risk damage to undercarriage and engines. Not particularly realistic IMO, especially with jet intakes sucking in spall from damage and dirt.

If this assumption is correct, then I suggest that to make this more realistic, probability and randomness is added to the mix to accommodate variations on MOS e.g. hits down the length of the strip, resulting in zero MOS? The probability/randomness would be based on the type of ordnance and delivery system and perhaps other factors.

As perhaps suggested by SeaQueen:

quote:

Need 1000 ft to take off? On a 2000 ft runway, I need to put more than one big hole in the right places and if I do, it's completely closed to that aircraft type. You might shut down a runway with one hit in the right place, or 3 hits, or 2 hits, or 4 hits. It just depends on placement and what kinds of aircraft are there. Command doesn't really capture that. You just get a sortie rate reduction that might eventually get down to zero.

There is an interesting document produced by the US Department of Air Force on Minimal Airfield Operating Surface (MAOS) Selection and Repair Quality Criterial (RQC) at https://www.wbdg.org/FFC/AF/AFTTP/afttp_3_32.12.pdf

Peter

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/12/2020 3:29:16 AM >

(in reply to decaf)

Post #: 14