Scrapping stratagem ideas

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Suggestions and Feedback >> Scrapping stratagem ideas

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Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/8/2021 11:22:58 AM

Maerchen

Posts: 348
Joined: 6/16/2020
From: Germany
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As Vic in the podcast mentioned,

we will be able to recycle stratagems more or less soon.

Ideas on how to:

- Checkboxes on which stratagems we want to recycle or always want to keep. An estimate on how many points this will generate.

- As we already payed them with BP, we should get the BP back at a ratio depending on the admin or mainly used skill of the relevant director.

- Recycled stratagem BP can only be used for related research. Recycling prospecting push could yield economic research points.

- Recycling FP cards should give always back different FP cards, not the same. Ratio 3:1

- Recycling FP cards can be boosted by investing 1 FP to get a choice of 3 cards, or 2 FP to get a specific card.

- Recycled stratagems can be used to get access to otherwise not accessable stratagems, like Governor Convention when not using government profile at a 10:1 ratio, taking PP costs into account.

- Difficulty levels influence recycling costs and chances.

- Option to design/mod our own stratagems. I would like to have a stratagem like 'close combat survival training' to train a specific skill - personal combat - on a leader. Success depending on actual skill level, so getting early points easy, but already good skill better more difficult. Depending on admin skill roll, those cost -10 - +100% more than estimated.

- recycling stratagems to reverse-engineer tech on surrendered units with unknown tech. Like 'recycle X PP worth to reverse engineer Y points of discovery advancement, as the BP can be used that way.

What are your ideas?

Edit: As scrapping is now introduced...

< Message edited by Maerchen -- 1/18/2021 7:45:39 PM >

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The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

Post #: 1

RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/18/2021 7:53:40 PM

Maerchen

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From: Germany
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*bump*

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/18/2021 9:10:33 PM

newageofpower

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I'd prefer more control and not another "RNG Empire Extension" tbh

(in reply to Maerchen)

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/19/2021 3:41:01 AM

Maerchen

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From: Germany
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You mean more control of the system as it is now, so not random stratagems but like 'I want a recruitment/research/whatever related stratagem' ?

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/20/2021 7:31:10 AM

beyondwudge

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Joined: 12/22/2020
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I have to admit, I have mixed feelings about recycling stratagems. As a gameplay mechanic, being 'cards that you get dealt as if from a deck', they give a real sense of the changing political reality of your empire. You can't just do what you want to do, you need the infrastructure, people and support to try the action out.

As cards dealt with weightings, they could also allow Vic to change what cards you get to suit what is happening in your game. This can give the sense that the people and government you lead are actually responding to your game and not just a series of dice rolls every turn. The system has a lot of room for expansion and integration with the rest of the game.

Recycling the cards you don't like or don't want, as opposed to hiding them from the menu or adding them to a custom favourites group you default to when you open the stratagems menu, erodes the point of having cards.

You might as well just get rid of the cards and let people do whatever they want. That is really what we are talking about here, players who don't want to be restricted at all. To be blunt, you might as well just put a toggle in the planet creation phase that enables an unlimited supply of all stratagems (a new one generated everytime the last one is used for random PP costs, etc). Then with a favourites category most of these players can fix the problem of large numbers of potentially unused cards.

< Message edited by beyondwudge -- 1/20/2021 7:36:18 AM >

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/20/2021 5:04:27 PM

V4ndall

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While the idea is sound as having stratagems abstracts political opportunity for something like peace talks and the like, having a one-size-fits-all system means some actions turn out weird. Recruiting leaders at random somewhat assumes there's no screening process for, say, SHQ commanders... Inability to retire them without a card seems even weirder to me. As such, the scrapping mechanic makes the card system a little more flexible, especially as the new cards differ from the regular ones, and tend to be more precise. But most of all, it recycles otherwise useless cards that would otherwise just clutter the pool.

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Post #: 6

RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/20/2021 6:56:29 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

Inability to retire them without a card seems even weirder to me.

You can "retire" people by not giving them a job. However they will still be a entity the game tracks. Someone that can become mad enough to start a rebellion.

The Retirement card is there to get the person permanently out of your hair. Without using a Bullet.

quote:

Recruiting leaders at random somewhat assumes there's no screening process for, say, SHQ commanders

There are 10 to 100's of Millions of people in your country of Origin.
How many of those people would actually be in a position to be given the Leadership of your Countries SHQ equivalent?
What are you realistic chances to be assigned or voted into that job tomorrow?

Leaders are not random Soldiers or Police Officers. They need some serious clout to even break into the circle where they can appear as a candidate for any Cabinet post.

(in reply to V4ndall)

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/21/2021 12:45:39 AM

Maerchen

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The actual scientists in my country went through intensive academic training, grading and needed to prove their knowledge in front of their peers to become acknowledged scientists.

Not so much the RL "council directors", who represent the political system, mostly by modern nepotism. But those do not do the research and have almost no influx on the RL research, as this is done at the universities, far away from the politicos.

The SE council directors represent the scientific research community. That is a problem in my opinion.

And I never seen a INT 8 guy running successfully for office in RL. That is another SE problem.

But this is not the theme of this thread.

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/21/2021 8:03:55 AM

beyondwudge

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I would note that the university is discovered during the course of the game. I think within the post-apocalyptic empire-building theme it is entirely reasonable to expect that human-capital institutions which take hundreds of years to build (Oxford and Cambridge universities for example) would not exist at the start of the game or be possible to build over the course of the game.

If there was a second phase to the game, where after conquering the planet you must then build the means to leave the planet and colonise another (reminiscent of the old Output 1 dos game in concept), then it would be appropriate to expect that you would then have the means to obtain leaders at the 'push of a button' in whatever reasonable quantity you might desire.

In the end, I suspect this is how Vic might approach this problem.

1. Create an unlimited supply of capacity I (I.e. lowest tier) leaders that can be obtained for a nominal sum of PP, most likely via the secretary's actions menu.
2. Devote the recruit leader stratagems to capacity II, III, IV and V leaders, with a clearer link between the tier of card, PP cost and the level of leader obtained.
3. Allow institutions (represented by a unique public asset like 'Great University' and a profile like "Academics') to be created by a Decision. These institutions would have a limited sub-story (like Cults or Corporations) which offer the player the ability to spend PP to obtain certain stratagem effects on-demand. In this case, a Great University could offer on-demand recruitment of higher level civilian leaders of some sort.

I imagine this kind of idea could be extended to solve many problems with the stratagem system without trivialising the Stratagem card system and what it has to offer. It won't be the same as the current system, but it is a compromise that I think a lot of players could live with.

(in reply to Maerchen)

Post #: 9

RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/21/2021 9:04:44 AM

Hazard151

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SE Council directors represent the top level managers of the organization. Your BP investment is the abstracted investment by the government in something. And yes, a really poor director can really screw up the efforts of skilled subordinates.

But then, top level officials may not necessarily be selected for their skill in management or their capacity to do a good job. Political reliability may be a key asset.

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RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/21/2021 2:34:07 PM

V4ndall

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With seniority being a unique number, recruiting more weak leaders into the pool, gradually makes them more important without ever being assigned a position, and as such no real chance to get any recognition. This paired with heavily disproportionate weights of recruit and retire stratagems (in about 3:1 in favor of recruitment) creates an ecosystem of leaders existing only for the very sake of being clutter, reserve pool becoming somewhat similar to the stratagem pool in pre-recycle versions of the game. Exactly the reason I mentioned it in the first place. If nothing else, there should be an instant option not to recruit someone when playing a recruitment card and reviewing their stats.

< Message edited by V4ndall -- 1/21/2021 2:36:35 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Scrapping stratagem ideas - 1/22/2021 3:21:19 AM

beyondwudge

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I think there are at least two issues being conflated here (treated as one issue).

The first issue is the User-interface (UI). When using stratagems often you want to either:

a) Look through your list of stratagems to see if there is something you can do.
b) Find a particular stratagem within your list.

In the first case, cards that are deemed 'useless' are noise. They take up room, force you to click through more pages and distract you from the cards you are looking for. This is made worse by the fact you can't sort cards within a category or know for certain which page they will be on each time you look.

In the second case, 'useless' cards force you to search through more pages and more cards to find what you are looking for. They slow you down and make you ask questions that are irrelevant to what you are trying to do.

But, these issues are prevalent through-out the entire game system. A lot of issues would be resolved if the order that objects were presented to the player could be customised and simple string searches were implemented. These sort of systems have already been developed for phones, tablets and modern desktop interfaces and with a little tailoring could be used to make finding the unit, stratagem, profile, piece of information that you are looking for much more quickly and predictably.

However, now we come to the point of the game. The galactic empire has blown itself up and you are given an unfair, inconvenient and messy job to do -- rebuild civilisation amongst a bunch of warring tribes intent on killing you. The game interface reflects the theme, you are there to subdue the disorder, to interact with events, objects and people who will not do it your way and most importantly, roleplay being someone able to run an empire that is subjugating an entire world.

With that being said, having extra leaders is not that big of a problem but implementing a convenient system to manage them I think would become a big problem.

(in reply to V4ndall)

Post #: 12