RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A)

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RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/3/2021 7:44:03 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

20 Sep 42

I'd moved a cruiser group to the west of Noumea, in a spot that could imply a bombardment of Norfolk Island. The ships were spotted, as expected. Just showing that I'm still in the South Pacific. KB is not though.

Battleship Maryland and cruiser Raleigh bombarded Adak Island, doing minor damage. Now that I saw an AKE in the Aleutians, this will become more frequent I'm afraid. 9 Vals will be in the area and will set up for naval attack in a couple of days.

Another big Japanese bomber strike hitting the light industry at Kunming netted just a couple of damaged factories. The weather was good, so I can't blame that.

I did trap the Allied light bombers in Australia, when Wirraways and A-24s tried to bomb my small tank company near Daly Waters. A6M3 Zeros shot down just about every bomber, getting 13 A-24s and 7 Wirraways.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 451

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/6/2021 10:05:48 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

21 Sep 42

Just one light industry hit with over 120 Japanese bombers hitting Kunming. Severe storms. The effort will continue, with some bombers occasionally changing to airfield attack to keep the base damaged.

Big attack east of Lanchow. Not great. Could have been worse if it had been 1 to 3 odds, which it almost was.

Ground combat at 82,34 (near Lanchow)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 48154 troops, 370 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 1472

Defending force 49986 troops, 157 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1533

Japanese adjusted assault: 785

Allied adjusted defense: 2051

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
3295 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 409 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 24 disabled
Guns lost 34 (3 destroyed, 31 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1882 casualties reported
Squads: 13 destroyed, 241 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 35 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 10 (1 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Assaulting units:
22nd Division
116th Division
68th Division
Imperial Guards Division
12th Army
16th Field AA Machinecannon Company

Defending units:
1st Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
3rd Group Army
4th Group Army

Not having a higher HQ contributing to the battle is noticeable. That's an area of my game that I've learned more about this time around. I would do better next time. The force multiplier effect can make a big difference.

One division is mostly disabled now, and will pull back a hex to rest and guard the flank. All units have high disruption from the shock attack and need a few days off.

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Post #: 452

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/7/2021 9:14:16 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

22 Sep 42

Sub chaser Ch 21 is escorting some xAKLs unloading supply at Marcus Island. Ch 21 hit Grayback with 2 depth charges after a dud torpedo hit xAKL Katsura Maru. 3 Japanese DDs are there also, providing ASW coverage, but only managed some minor damage on Grayback.

Warazup, NW of Myitkyina near the Indian border, is cleared.

Ground combat at Warazup (63,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22552 troops, 177 guns, 41 vehicles, Assault Value = 766

Defending force 9834 troops, 13 guns, 27 vehicles, Assault Value = 345

Japanese adjusted assault: 275

Allied adjusted defense: 115

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Warazup !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
594 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 90 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1563 casualties reported
Squads: 116 destroyed, 92 disabled
Non Combat: 77 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 27 (26 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Units retreated 7

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
6th RTA Division
20th Division
4th RTA/A Division
2nd Army
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
200th Chinese Division
96th Chinese Division
BFF Brigade
36th Chinese Division
88th Chinese Division
101st RAF Base Force
308th Base Group /1

Warazup and Myityina will be held by portions of a Thai division. The 20th Division will go to Rangoon to rest and recover. Considering moving it to Port Blair. A direct invasion near Rangoon, like what I did to OPilot in the last game, would be very difficult without Port Blair. Of course, the Allies can bypass just about any location in the game and go elsewhere. As the Japanese, you pick your defenses and do what you can.

Victory just to the SE of Sian.

Ground combat at 84,42 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 34284 troops, 350 guns, 491 vehicles, Assault Value = 1084

Defending force 18098 troops, 50 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 469

Japanese adjusted assault: 923

Allied adjusted defense: 409

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1308 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 128 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
6449 casualties reported
Squads: 204 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 124 destroyed, 48 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 13 (5 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Units retreated 6

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
63rd Division
11th Division
12th Tank Regiment
2nd Tank Division
23rd Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
9th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
7th Construction Regiment
4th Construction Regiment
2nd Group Army

This Japanese stack is well prepared for Sian, but is weaker than I'd like. Need to guard its flanks also.

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Post #: 453

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/8/2021 4:48:38 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

23 Sep 42

I-5 arrived on patrol way up north on the map edge, west of Karachi. It immediately found xAK Daisy Moeller, sinking the ship with a torpedo. Later in the day, it found xAK Admiral Chase, hitting it with 4 torpedoes and 4 shells, sinking it. Intel reports 12 Dutch 139WH-3s lost. I-5 will now move towards Karachi, figuring that any remaining enemy ships will do the same.

Massive bombing of Kunming's light industry again nets just 1 factory damaged. Severe storms. We continue to try to hit the LI.

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Post #: 454

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/9/2021 1:48:09 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

24 Sep 42

OPilot went after Mandalay, seeing no Japanese fighters there. I had a few recon planes and a big transport unit that was flying supply to Tsuyung. Many Hurricanes swept and then B-24s hit the airfield, doing moderate damage and destroying a Topsy. Mandalay is not a priority for me.

I-19 spotted the tanker convoy north of Male and missed TK Inge Maersk with 4 torpedoes. In this encounter, 2 tankers were spotted with a single PC for escort. A later mouseover showed more ships in the convoy.

At Tuyun, where I had hoped to break through the Chinese line a month ago, I've switched to bombarding every day, and I'm generally getting good results. 203 casualties with some squads destroyed. I'm not going to break through with just bombardments, but it is taking a toll and tying down 6 Chinese corps there.

The river crossing into Yenan occurred. The 2 smaller Japanese units that were already there were not set to attack. Results were good. Still not 100% decided that I will finish off the Chinese, not wanting the corps to respawn. If I take Sian, Yenan isn't as important for pulling in supply to the area. Waiting for disruption to come down, then I'll make a final decision.

Ground combat at Yenan (88,37)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28715 troops, 210 guns, 157 vehicles, Assault Value = 1086

Defending force 36681 troops, 83 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 536

Japanese adjusted assault: 961

Allied adjusted defense: 199

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
2102 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 144 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2275 casualties reported
Squads: 36 destroyed, 102 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)

Assaulting units:
23rd Tank Regiment
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
26th Division
4th Cavalry Brigade
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
138th Infantry Regiment
Mongol Garrison Army
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment

Defending units:
115th Red Chinese Division
120th Red Chinese Division
35th Chinese Corps
129th Red Chinese Division
22nd Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
3rd Prov Chinese Corps
83rd Chinese Corps
19th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
6th Group Army
18th Group Army
2nd War Area
13th Group Army
12th Chinese Base Force

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Post #: 455

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/9/2021 8:27:15 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

25 Sep 42

Destroyers Yugure and Ariake found the tanker convoy that they had been tracking, and the tankers were carrying fuel as expected.

Day Time Surface Combat, near North Male at 18,44, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yugure
DD Ariake, Shell hits 3, heavy fires

Allied Ships
PC Sutlej, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
TK Fenris, Shell hits 21, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
TK Ferncastle, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
TK India, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
TK Pan Scandia, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
TK Inge Maersk, Shell hits 23, heavy fires, heavy damage

Reduced visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards

Ariake is SYS 51/FLOT 26-7/ENG 26-1/FIRE 6 and can move just 4 hexes per day. The odds of escape are very low. Yugure has a better shot at getting back to Sabang, but I expect a strong response to come out of Colombo, and it's obvious where to go to cut off the Japanese destroyers.

A busy day with the subs.

Up north, west of Karachi, I-5 hit xAP Dunera with a torpedo. The sub sank 2 cargo ships yesterday.

West of Perth, I-165 sank PC Netravati with a torpedo. The patrol boat was escorting an AVP that was hit with a dud torpedo by the sub yesterday. No sign of the AVP today. It will make it to Perth.

I-176 moved into Dutch Harbor, knowing that there were a lot of US ships there yesterday. Destroyer McCalla went after the sub after 2 torpedoes missed the destroyer. No depth charges hit, but there were many near misses. I-176 is SYS 49/FLOT 21-0/ENG 0/FIRE 0.

Japanese troops moved into Sian from the southeast. I erroneously thought that it would be a river crossing. It was not. An attack is ordered for today.

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Post #: 456

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/9/2021 11:46:24 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

Those are some of the biggest tankers the Allies have. Shamefully under-escorted.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 457

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/11/2021 12:47:38 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Those are some of the biggest tankers the Allies have. Shamefully under-escorted.

Not having adequate search set up at Male made the adventure possible. This will make OPilot more cautious, and that is always one of my highest priorities in a game.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 458

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/11/2021 12:49:38 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

26 Sep 42

Scuplin fired 2 torpedoes at huge xAP Aikoku Maru at Lautem, Timor. Torpedoes missed. The convoy is carrying an infantry division from Darwin to Singapore, destined to go to Port Blair.

Port Moresby got the treatment. First it was bombarded:

Night Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 49 damaged
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M2 Zero: 3 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CA Canberra
CA Australia
CL Hobart
CL Perth
DD Norman
DD Nizam
DD Napier
DD Nestor
DD Arunta
DD Stuart

Japanese ground losses:
297 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 31 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 20 (3 destroyed, 17 disabled)

Airbase hits 22
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 73
Port hits 17
Port supply hits 8

Very good bombardment. I had just moved planes into Port Moresby, guessing that the B-17s that had been bombing in central Australia would find something else to do. 2 Nicks and 2 Zeros were destroyed on the ground. But fortunately, the airfield was not knocked out of action, and the B-17s did appear. With B-26s.

At first, a dozen Nicks and a dozen Zeros went after 36 B-26s and 9 B-17Fs. Bombers were downed and minor base damage done. Then 12 more B-17Fs and 12 Marauders. Then another dozen B-26s. And 9 more B-17Fs. Get used to it. Many big Allied bases in range in Australia. It will only get worse.

The Japanese fighters did very well against the Marauders, downing 23 of them. 2 B-17Fs were also shot down. 2 Nicks and a Zero went down against the bombers. Good result, considering the bombardment.

First attack at Sian.

Ground combat at Sian (83,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 33264 troops, 350 guns, 420 vehicles, Assault Value = 975

Defending force 30272 troops, 115 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 657

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Japanese adjusted assault: 1653

Allied adjusted defense: 646

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1783 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 174 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
987 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 106 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Assaulting units:
11th Division
63rd Division
2nd Tank Division
23rd Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
9th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
37th Group Army
2nd Group Army
15th Group Army
38th Group Army

High fort levels. Now it's a race to take Sian before Chinese reinforcements arrive from the east and the northeast. I don't think I'll win this race. 4 units are now in the adjacent hex to the east. They will be bombed, in clear terrain, and some will probably be slowed. I have to rest today, for resupply. If the next attack doesn't take the city, and I don't think it will, Sian will be reinforced and become a stalemate. The difference here is that the front to the northeast and east is collapsing, so eventually, more Japanese units will make it to the area. I predict that I will eventually take Sian, primarily due to the clear terrain. I can bomb it at will.

The 2 Japanese destroyers west of Ceylon were spotted by Catalinas today but not engaged. The damaged one is moving 4 hexes a day and probably will be hunted down. At least its fire was put out.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 459

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/12/2021 3:49:37 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

27 Sep 42 - Gilbert Islands

Enemy task force, with just 1 ship spotted, moved to within 7 hexes of an unspotted KB, but Japanese bombers did not fly.

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Post #: 460

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/12/2021 3:50:48 AM

apbarog

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Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

27 Sep 42 - Indian Ocean

Destroyer Ariake, moving just 4 hexes a day, is tracked down and sunk by the British.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Addu at 20,52, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Ariake, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Exeter
CA Hawkins
DD Inconstant
DD Isis

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Post #: 461

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/12/2021 3:52:02 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

27 Sep 42 - China

Yenan is captured with a huge Chinese army surrendering.

Ground combat at Yenan (88,37)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 32441 troops, 256 guns, 207 vehicles, Assault Value = 946

Defending force 34735 troops, 74 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 418

Japanese adjusted assault: 1010

Allied adjusted defense: 125

Japanese assault odds: 8 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Yenan !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: HQ(+)

Japanese ground losses:
833 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 99 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
37166 casualties reported
Squads: 866 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2401 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 98 (98 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 15

Assaulting units:
4th Cavalry Brigade
26th Division
23rd Tank Regiment
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
9th Ind.Mixed Brigade
138th Infantry Regiment
Mongol Garrison Army
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment

Defending units:
19th Chinese Corps
120th Red Chinese Division
22nd Chinese Corps
3rd Prov Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
83rd Chinese Corps
35th Chinese Corps
115th Red Chinese Division
129th Red Chinese Division
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
18th Group Army
13th Group Army
2nd War Area
6th Group Army
12th Chinese Base Force

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Post #: 462

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/14/2021 7:28:34 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

28 Sep 42

The snooping enemy ships in the Gilberts turned out to be French destroyer Le Triomphant. The destroyer is an excellent ship and makes an excellent raider. Having spotted the ship, it disappeared today. KB was not spotted and remains in place.

Sonias bombed light industry at Lanchow and damaged about 16 refineries.

In the Aleutians, CM Tsugaru dropped mines at Adak Island, and was spotted by Silversides. 2 torpedoes hit but both were duds. OPilot can be pretty sure that I have mines at Adak now. Many more mines were dropped yesterday by a large group of tiny minelaying ships. Those small minelayers and Japanese destroyers were targeted at Ulak Island by a US carrier force that appeared to the southwest, at a range of 6 hexes.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Ulak Island at 160,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
SBD-3 Dauntless x 36
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 6 destroyed, 5 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CMc Enoshima, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Hasu
DD Tsuta
DMS W-2, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Asagao
CMc Ma 2, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Susuki
CMc Ma 3, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
CMc Toshima

An afternoon strike of 17 SBD-3s with 16 Wildcats missed hitting destroyers. Weather was severe storms in the afternoon. More SBDs were shot down.

The Zeros performed very well, considering that the pilots are only average quality. CMc Enoshima was scuttled, so 3 tiny minelaying ships were sunk and the destroyers were missed. I can't complain about that for a surprise raid. Total air losses were 29 SBD-3s, 8 TBF-1s and 6 F4F-4s, for the loss of 3 Zeros. I've noted that an "S" sub was at Ulak also. OPilot seems to use subs at enemy bases where he orders air strikes, possibly to help rescue downed pilots. If the sub is there ahead of time, it could tip me off to a raid coming. Difficult to notice though, as he puts US subs on lots of Japanese bases.

Japanese attack at Sian goes ok but with infantry division losses. Forts come down. Chinese reinforcements are still racing to Sian. One of the Chinese corps there today was fresh. I may or may not take the city. The 2nd Tank Division is taking few losses in the fighting so far, so that's a good sign. The 2 infantry divisions, however, are over 50% disabled now. We have supply and will attack again immediately. Bombers continue to support and also slow the Chinese approaching the city.

Ground combat at Sian (83,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 31927 troops, 350 guns, 420 vehicles, Assault Value = 838

Defending force 30713 troops, 115 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 568

Japanese adjusted assault: 1440

Allied adjusted defense: 739

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1042 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 143 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled

Allied ground losses:
793 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 100 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Assaulting units:
11th Division
63rd Division
2nd Tank Division
23rd Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
15th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
55th Chinese Corps
29th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps
31st Group Army
15th Group Army
37th Group Army
2nd Group Army
38th Group Army

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by apbarog -- 11/14/2021 7:29:05 PM >

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Post #: 463

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/15/2021 10:06:02 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

29 Sep 42

Big British [EDIT: American, obviously] air effort over Myitkyina. 2 squadrons of P-40Es and a squadron of P-40Ks (first appearance of the "K") sweep Myitkyina. B-24s and B-25s then bombed the airfield, doing moderate damage. Myitkyina is not important to me, other than that it is in Japanese hands. I don't plan on basing air units there. It's a free bombing target for the British. It would take 100+ Japanese fighters to protect it, and still take high losses.

Victory at Sian!

Ground combat at Sian (83,41)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 30963 troops, 350 guns, 420 vehicles, Assault Value = 734

Defending force 31700 troops, 114 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 504

Japanese adjusted assault: 1154

Allied adjusted defense: 213

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Sian !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1417 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 101 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
12213 casualties reported
Squads: 299 destroyed, 18 disabled
Non Combat: 382 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 30 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 18 (18 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 11

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

The 2 Japanese divisions are about 60% disabled and will remain at Sian. The tank division will stay also, for now. I don't have planes to advance out of Sian. Japanese units will clear the road from Yenan to Sian, coming from the Yenan area.

2 Japanese units attacked southeast of Sian also, taking 630 casualties and inflicting 183, with a 1 to 1 attack against unsupplied Chinese. The Chinese are showing movement to the north, wanting to move to the east of Sian. We'll attack again after resupply.

The US carrier TF in the Aleutians disappeared.

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< Message edited by apbarog -- 11/16/2021 2:22:18 PM >

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Post #: 464

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/17/2021 12:31:03 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

30 Sep 42

A quiet turn. I did the usual bombing, near Sian, at Kunming, at Bandoeng (yes, the Dutch are still there and still have supply). Bombed Ankang, west of Sian, to show some interest after taking Sian. I may show ground movement towards Ankang, off road, but it would be with small units.

Once I clean up around Sian, I think that the bulk of those forces will move back to the Kunming-Tuyun area, for the final push there. It would be a long war of attrition, off road, but for those restricted Japanese troops, it would be worth it. The goal remains to isolate China from Burma to restrict supply (done), and hold all bases in the mountains in western China to keep that isolation going even after I lose Burma (working on it).

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 465

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/18/2021 2:18:40 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

1 Oct 42

Chinese cleared out from south of the river, southeast of Sian, and pushed to the north side of the river, just east of Sian.

Ground combat at 85,42 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 28718 troops, 230 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 891

Defending force 10254 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 331

Japanese adjusted assault: 761

Allied adjusted defense: 133

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
608 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 71 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Allied ground losses:
3063 casualties reported
Squads: 98 destroyed, 40 disabled
Non Combat: 78 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 3

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
32nd Division
35th Division
41st/A Division

Defending units:
40th Chinese Corps
8th New Chinese Corps
24th Group Army

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Post #: 466

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/19/2021 4:16:13 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

2 Oct 42

Transport Kongo Maru is traveling with another fast xAP from Port Arthur to Hong Kong, destined for Java. The 2 ships are carrying 2 engineer units bought out from Manchuria. They have a speed of 21 knots, so they are fast, and I didn't assign escort to them. Near Wenchow. Albacore spotted Kongo Maru and fired 4 torpedoes. All missed. Albacore attacked again, firing 4 more torpedoes, and all missed. Near Foochow, Kongo Maru was spotted by Flying Fish, which fired 4 torpedoes. One hit, but was a dud. A lucky day for Kongo Maru. Speed helps against torpedoes, but only somewhat.

Nothing else notable. Some units are leaving Sian, including the tank division, and heading to Tuyun. Other units northeast of Sian will do a river crossing against a Chinese corps as they move towards Sian to clear the trail.

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Post #: 467

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/19/2021 11:55:17 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
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3 Oct 42

British sub Trusty sank small tanker Juko Maru southwest of Rangoon, in deep water. My early-war convoys to Rangoon were coastal, and OPilot got wise to that and started moving subs to the shallow waters. I adjusted and moved my convoy route out into the deep water, and it took a couple of months until that was discovered. I'm going to move it further out towards Port Blair now and see how long that works. I put a lot of effort into my convoy routings, and avoid losing ships by using slightly unexpected routes. And I don't talk much about this work, as I've done such work in all of my games. The effort is worth it. Just move a little bit beyond what an expected route would be, and the route may never be discovered.

We went back to Cocos Island and invaded it, taking it back.

Ground combat at Cocos Islands (33,101)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 3720 troops, 40 guns, 88 vehicles, Assault Value = 132

Defending force 649 troops, 16 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 17

Japanese adjusted assault: 60

Allied adjusted defense: 1

Japanese assault odds: 60 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Cocos Islands !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 3 destroyed
Swordfish I: 4 destroyed
Sea Hurricane Ib: 1 destroyed

Combat modifiers
Defender:
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
383 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
629 casualties reported
Squads: 43 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 66 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 22 (22 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 9 (9 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
3rd Ind Engr Rgt /2
19th Tank Regiment
21st Ind.Mixed Bde /4

Defending units:
1st Somerset LI Battalion

The engineer unit will stay. The tank regiment begins loading up immediately. The infantry will be removed in the next couple of weeks.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 468

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/20/2021 9:10:15 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

4 Oct 42

Little to report. I did the usual bombing in China. Troops from the Sian area continue to pull out to the south, to be redeployed in the Kunming/Tuyun area. Troops from Yenan will cross the river towards Sian in 2 days. Looks like the single Chinese corps that was on the other side of the river is gone now. Small Japanese carriers are covering supply and fuel delivery to Attu in the Aleutians. Big Japanese DD force to patrol to Adak during the night, but return to the west during the day. Some kind of enemy combat force spotted to the east yesterday. I do have mines at Adak now but OPilot had spotted the minelayers, so it is not a surprise.

In the big picture, I'm just waiting for the US hammer to fall. I've seen a USMC regiment months ago when the US retook Midway, but I haven't seen a USMC division at all in the war. I'm sure that they are prepping somewhere. When OPilot does go on the offensive, it will be with overwhelming force.

Remember, a couple of months ago, I had spotted a large armada moving to the northwest, arriving at a spot east of Luganville. A Japanese sub hit a US carrier, and the whole armada turned around and went back to Pago Pago. That could have been the first attempt at starting the US offensive.

KB has stayed in the same hex for weeks now, west of Tarawa. Not spotted. Still, probably not wise to stay there. You never know what SigInt that the US is getting.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 469

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/21/2021 5:29:25 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

5 Oct 42

Hit the airfield at Kunming very hard. Kunming still has supply, no matter what I do. I've been hitting the light industry occasionally. It has a lot of heavy industry, but I'm assuming that fuel is almost non-existent in China. I've destroyed most of the refineries. So I don't bomb HI.

Approximately 41 B-17s bombed Daly Waters in Australia. Not worried about it. It's my most southern base in Australia and I have no plans to base aircraft there.

Small cargo ships are now in the Aleutians. They will move to the 4 Japanese bases and unload. A carrier task force, with small carriers, will support the move to Adak.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 470

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/21/2021 9:04:27 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

6 Oct 42

I'd noticed a US sub moving through Toboali and a nearby base island. Both have resources. The sub is looking for cargo ships, so now I'm looking for it. A sub chaser spotted Perch at Toboali but didn't hit it.

I did more LI bombing in China, wiping out most of the 20 LI at Changteh. More refineries damaged at Lanchow, and I'm hitting LI there now too. Just a couple LI hit at Kweiyang. I'm going all out to make the supply situation in China as rough as I can. And keep it that way for as long as possible.

B-17s hit Gove for the first time. It's an easy target and recently built the airfield to size 1. I'm using it as a search plane base, and I plan on defending it on the ground.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 471

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/22/2021 5:19:41 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

7 Oct 42

I-156 spotted a combat force north of Wellington. Light cruiser Leander and destroyers Parrott and Humphreys are spotted, and 4 torpedoes missed Parrott. Seeing Leander, I'm figuring that this is not a big US task force. There was another task force spotted in the hex during the night though. I decide that KB will remain in the Marshalls.

xAP Kongo Maru has led a charmed week. It was attacked by US subs several times near Taiwan, as it headed from Port Arthur to Batavia. All but one torpedo missed, and the one was a dud. Next to Batavia, now it was attacked by Permit, but 4 torpedoes missed. The speed of Kongo Maru and its sister ship is 23, not 20, as I had stated last week. 2 construction units will unload at Batavia.

Bombed refineries and light industry at Lanchow again. Only 6 refineries remain operational, and unless I'm mistaken, they are the only refineries operational and in Chinese control. Sonias will continue to target Lanchow.

B-26s and B-17s bombed Port Moresby. I had fighters at Buna covering a big troop reinforcement convoy, and fighters at Lae resting. Heavy damage to the airfield but 2 B-26s were shot down by flak. Hard to guess the right day to fly LRCAP when the bombers arrive so infrequently.

My carriers and destroyers and cargo ships are spotted at and near Adak Island in the Aleutians. Yamato and Mutsu will split off from the carriers and bombard the nearby US base (the one 2 hexes due east of Adak, forgot the name). The enemy base has 2 units on it, and is a size 1 port and size 0 airfield. I'd like to slow the building. Sallys from a western airfield will hit the troops there too.

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Post #: 472

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/23/2021 6:50:26 PM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

8 Oct 42

Yamato makes its first appearance in the war, bombarding Atka Island along with battleship Mutsu. It's a very poor showing. Just 97 casualties from the 87th Mountain Regiment, and 4 port hits and 2 supply hits. The battleships and carriers will now retire to Attu Island. Supply is unloading at all 4 Japanese islands in the Aleutians.

Blens attacked the 1st RTA Division just east of Akyab. Lots of Hurricanes swept above, coming from Chittagong. Very minor losses in the jungle. B-25s and B-24s bombed the airfield at Myitkyina, doing moderate damage. Lots of Flying Tiger P-40s swept from India.

B-17s from Australia bombed the airbase and port at Milne Bay. OPilot had spotted my big reinforcement convoy there. Minor damage to the base. The B-17s can generally go wherever they want. If they run into strong fighter defense, a few may be lost and many will be damaged, but that is just a delay. Not like catching the Blens and shooting most of them down. It's a sign of things to come, and it isn't good for the Japanese.

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Post #: 473

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/24/2021 3:46:39 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
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9 Oct 42

3 Japanese subs were on the move yesterday, trying to catch a big cargo convoy westbound from Ceylon towards the western map edge. The ships had been spotted 2 days in a row, and were moving 6 hexes a day, due west. The subs moved to intercept, but OPilot wisely jogged 2 rows to the south, still headed west. KB Fressia showed up in the exact hex predicted with a 6 hex move due west, and it got a depth charge hit on I-32, doing moderate SYS damage. All 3 subs will continue the hunt for one more day, picking different hexes 6 hexes towards the map edge. It's less than 50-50 for an intercept.

The Australian B-17s went back to hitting Daly Waters, doing heavy damage. The rotation has included Daly Waters, Gove, Port Moresby, and Katherine. I'm guessing that Katherine is next. Nicks from Lae and Zeros from Darwin are moved to Katherine.

Ansi in far, far northern China is captured. I had been chasing one of the weakened Chinese units into Ansi from the south with an armored unit, slowly wearing down the enemy that continued to take losses to a much smaller, but armored, unit. For the move into Ansi, I sent the armor back south to cover the base there, and moved a bigger infantry unit into Ansi. That worked.

Ground combat at Ansi (80,23)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6733 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 210

Defending force 9209 troops, 40 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 232

Japanese adjusted assault: 165

Allied adjusted defense: 75

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Ansi !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: op mode(-), leaders(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
274 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2702 casualties reported
Squads: 121 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 35 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units retreated 3

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade

Defending units:
38th Chinese Corps
303rd Brigade
9th Separate Brigade

The 2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade will now chase the enemy to the northeast. I didn't expect to be able to pull supply anywhere near this far north in China, but I'm doing it. I'm contemplating going after that big oil producing base 2 more cities to the north. I think other Japanese players have had issues pulling oil out of there, so it may not be worth the trouble.

Northwest of Tuyun, Chinese units moved into the woods and attacked a small Japanese unit holding the flank. I had a division and armor here previously, but pulled them back into Tuyun. I wonder if OPilot will reinforce this fight. I won't order reinforcements.

Action in the South Pacific?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by apbarog -- 11/24/2021 3:57:34 AM >

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Post #: 474

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/25/2021 2:41:12 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

10 Oct 42

Nothing showed up east of Luganville, but my armada with KB didn't move an inch. I had planned for them to move 8 hexes to the SW, moving within range of Luganville, but that did not occur. No idea why. Fuel was not an issue. I did have 4 task forces, with 3 following the first one, and I have seen this happen rarely in the past, when multiple TFs are following.

I've ordered the ships to move back to the NE towards Tarawa.

My convoy intercept west of Ceylon didn't occur. My 3 subs guesses different hexes on the west map edge, and the convoy moved between 2 of them. Just missed. All subs will head to the Rangoon area for repair, refuel and more torpedoes.

I will probably lose the battle in the woods NW of Tuyun.

Ground combat at 73,50 (near Kweiyang)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11870 troops, 70 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 399

Defending force 1812 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 59

Allied adjusted assault: 55

Japanese adjusted defense: 91

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
113 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
123 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
9th Prov Chinese Corps
69th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps

Defending units:
88th Naval Guard Unit

The Chinese have many more men and will wear my troops down, even with the Chinese being out of supply. I've ordered some bombers to hit the Chinese.

(in reply to apbarog)

Post #: 475

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/25/2021 8:32:32 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apbarog

10 Oct 42

Nothing showed up east of Luganville, but my armada with KB didn't move an inch. I had planned for them to move 8 hexes to the SW, moving within range of Luganville, but that did not occur. No idea why. Fuel was not an issue. I did have 4 task forces, with 3 following the first one, and I have seen this happen rarely in the past, when multiple TFs are following.

I've ordered the ships to move back to the NE towards Tarawa.

My convoy intercept west of Ceylon didn't occur. My 3 subs guesses different hexes on the west map edge, and the convoy moved between 2 of them. Just missed. All subs will head to the Rangoon area for repair, refuel and more torpedoes.

I will probably lose the battle in the woods NW of Tuyun.

Ground combat at 73,50 (near Kweiyang)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11870 troops, 70 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 399

Defending force 1812 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 59

Allied adjusted assault: 55

Japanese adjusted defense: 91

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
113 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
123 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
9th Prov Chinese Corps
69th Chinese Corps
72nd Chinese Corps

Defending units:
88th Naval Guard Unit

The Chinese have many more men and will wear my troops down, even with the Chinese being out of supply. I've ordered some bombers to hit the Chinese.

The AI moves TFs in order of their TF #. It can handle a single follow order if the other TFs are set to follow one leader, but if you daisy-chain follow orders without regard to TF#, you can set up a logic loop that the AI cannot parse, so it does nothing. Never daisy-chain the follow order!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 476

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/26/2021 12:20:40 AM

apbarog

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Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline

[/quote]
The AI moves TFs in order of their TF #. It can handle a single follow order if the other TFs are set to follow one leader, but if you daisy-chain follow orders without regard to TF#, you can set up a logic loop that the AI cannot parse, so it does nothing. Never daisy-chain the follow order!
[/quote]

In this case, I had one carrier task force which is TF#1. The other 3 task forces had orders to follow TF#1. You are right about the daisy-chain issue, but in this case, they were all following the same task force, which was TF#1. All could have moved 8 hexes, and weren't close to needing fuel. The task forces didn't move at all.

As it turned out, it didn't matter. I don't think there are any any ships in the area after all. But if there had been, not moving would have affected a big battle, and I wouldn't have been happy.

I ordered them all in a different direction for the next turn, with the same following orders. We'll see if they move.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 477

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/26/2021 3:24:16 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

Interesting. Now I wonder what the explanation for lack of movement could be ... Thanksgiving Dinner?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 478

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/26/2021 3:34:20 AM

apbarog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Interesting. Now I wonder what the explanation for lack of movement could be ... Thanksgiving Dinner?

Don't know. The ships all moved as planned today.

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Post #: 479

RE: Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A) - 11/26/2021 3:35:44 AM

apbarog

Posts: 3769
Joined: 5/23/2002
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11 Oct 42

Huge Allied air effort over Magwe, but just with fighters, no bombers. 2 elite Japanese fighter units couldn't withstand so many sweeps. Initially, I had 34 Tojos and 40 Nicks on CAP, with the Tojos at 32000 feet and the Nicks at 11000.

Sweeps included:
16 Hurricane IIb
16 Hurricane IIb
16 Hurricane IIb
16 Hurricane IIb
24 P-40K
25 P-40E
16 Hurricane IIb

The Hurricanes came in above all of the Japanese fighters, and got the bounce on the Nicks every time. The Nicks and Tojos held their own with the first couple of Hurri sweeps, but then they started to tire and the losses mounted. The P-40s came in just below the Tojos, but by this point, there weren't as many Japanese fighters still in the air, and the ones that weren't were no longer effective.

Total air losses were 29 Nicks and 14 Tojos while downing 14 Hurricanes, 5 P-40Ks and 3 P-40Es. I'll try to defend Magwe off and on, but being so close to so many bases in India, I can't fight the entire Allied air force over one base.

OPilot was cautious and didn't send any bombers to Magwe. After today, I think he will. I moved 3 fresh fighter squadrons to Magwe, and stacked them from 11k, 20k and 30k.

Surprisingly, OPilot did not attack again NW of Tuyun, and even shows movement out of the hex to the NW. I did bomb the Chinese there today and caused some casualties, with at least one of the enemy units probably in movement mode.

The Australian B-17s split up and hit Buna and Gove, doing moderate damage to both. For now I'm keeping 2 fighter squadrons at Katherine. They are not spotted and I still hope to catch some B-17s there.

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Post #: 480

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