RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:14:12 PM

rkr1958

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Turn 1. Sep/Oct 1939. Japan. Preliminary Production.

If I'm wrong please correct me; but I view our mission is maximize production production given convoys at sea and your (i.e., Warspite's) direction(s) with respect to lending agreements.

So working through the major powers, axis first this turn, preliminary productions screens: (1) Germany has no CPs at sea so not applicable, (2) Italy has 1 in the Italian Coast with 1 RP flowing to a factory so nothing more can be there and (3) lastly, Japan.

The top screen CAP is the preliminary production that was given and the bottom is my recommendation to maximize production given CPs at sea, trade agreements, etc. I freed up a CP in the China Sea by moving the save of the Balikpapan, NEI oil from Mukden, Manchuria to Canton. This freed up a CP in the China Sea which allowed the previous idle RP at Hainan to reach a factory in Japan; thus increasing production by 1 BP.

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< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 2/17/2021 5:16:43 PM >

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Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 31

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:16:01 PM

Centuur

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Of course, Mr. Warspite has done a good job in positioning his convoys. That means that it should be possible to give the CW maximum production (and save oil also). Oil resources are the key to proceed. Where non-oil resources are always going to a factory, oil resource can be saved. Also: any resource coming out of trade agreements are lost, if they are not used in a factory or saved.
The way the convoys are positioned in the game, gives me notice to do the following:

1. Save the Dutch East Indies oil in places around the Bay of Bengal.
2. Save the Birmese Oil in Birma.

The 3 convoy points in the Bay of Bengal are than totally used, and the 3 convoy points in the Arabian Sea need to be used for two non oil resources out of India. Remember, our garlic eating friends from Paris are using one convoy point to get the Indo China resource back to France...

So I check where those oil resource are going now, and change them (again: select the row, press the save button under Rail Ship and send those resources to Rangoon, Calcutta and Bombay).

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Peter

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Post #: 32

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:26:05 PM

Centuur

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Only one factory still idle. It starts to look better and better. However, there are still 6 idle non oil resources. So I stick at looking at the oil resources and the unused convoy screen.

Next: the Persian oil. That is using a precious convoy point which I would want to use to send a non oil resource out of the east to the UK instead. So I save that one in Amman (Transjordan).

After this, there are no more oil resources from the east going to the UK any more. So, it's time to check the idle non oil resources and the unused allied convoys again.

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Peter

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Post #: 33

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:47:06 PM

Centuur

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Now, for the big final. It's somewhat strange, but the button "unused convoys" is a somewhat strange thing. It gives the number of unused convoys according to the computer program. However, the program now shows that the Cape of St. Vincent hasn't got any unused convoys. Thats "Humbug", as mr. Scrooge would say. Didn't we conclude that Mr. Warspite did a good job by setting up the convoys for maximum production? At the same time, the Yellandu resource sits in our screen as being: "idle". However, it should be able to go to the UK.

So I select that resource, press the "produce" button under "rail/ship" and "recompute". This gives me full production!

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Peter

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Post #: 34

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:48:07 PM

rkr1958

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Turn 1. Sep/Oct 1939. CW. Preliminary Production.

In the file I got I saw you were saving 2 oil (NEI) to Glasgow. I took this as a minimum constraint with the objective to maximize production and/or oil saved given the CP distribution.

I was unable to increase production but I was able to keep it at the same level (i.e., 10 BPs) and significantly increase the number of oil saved by 6 points. Also I was able to increase the number of oil saved to the UK from 2 to 3. Here's what I did in the order I did it.

1. Changed NEI Oil saved from Glasgow to Singapore. Note: Since NEI Oil is a trade resource (i.e., TR) is can't be used in the same turn for reorg. It can either be used for production or save. What I like to do with these 2 oil initial is save them locally (e.g., Singapore) and use these saved oil next turn for reorg.
2. Changed Persia oil from production to being save at Suez (which freed up a CPs for the idle Cyprus non-oil to be used for production).
3. Changed Estevan & 1 Venezuela oil being used for production to being saved at Glasglow.
4. Saved the Port of Spain oil in place (Note: This oil can be used for reorg without being saved as long a CP route exist. Significantly, this CP route can be fully in use. That is, no spare CPs. As long as it exist whether or not in use, the oil can be used for reorg).
5. Saved the Burma oil to Rangoon. Like the Port of Spain Oil this oil can be used without having to be saved for reorg as long as a CP route exist).
6. So, saving these oils as I did freed up CPs to route idle non-oil RPs to factories. I then noticed that CW production was 20 RPs x 0.5 = 10 BPs. Since production is rounded up (i.e., 19 RPs x 0.5 = 9.5 BPs rounded up to 10 BPs), this meant an additional oil being used for production could be saved to the UK. So I saved 1 of the 2 Venezuela oil for production to London.

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Ronnie

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Post #: 35

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 5:58:00 PM

Centuur

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I can save the Port of Spain oil (for the same reason as I did with the French oil). I'll send it to Canada.

After this, one should think you are finished now. But no, you are not. Everytime you press the recompute button, one of the other major powers on you side may be effected by the changes you have made. So again, I press the "switch major power" button and go back to the first major power (i.e.: China) to check if everything is OK. And if China is OK. I press again the "Switch major power" button to check on the USSR and on and on and on...

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Peter

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 6:03:30 PM

Centuur

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And look: the program did make a mess out of France. No maximum production anymore. Why isn't the Senegalese resource not going to France anymore? Again: that should not be possible. "Humbug"...

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< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/17/2021 6:04:05 PM >

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Peter

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Post #: 37

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 6:08:25 PM

rkr1958

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Turn 1. Sep/Oct 1939. France. Preliminary Production.

Like the CW, I couldn't increase production given your convoy lines however I was able to save the Iraq oil and maintain your current production. I saved it to Syria but as you see in the AFTER cap I could have saved it to metropolitan France and still maintained 4 BPs. The reason I left it in Syria was to show the unused CPs.

1. An additional CP in the Arabian Sea and in Cape St Vincent would allow the French to get the Hanio and Kayes RP to French factories.
2. An additional CP in either the Faeroes Gap or Bay of Biscay would allow the CW to get the Port of Spain oil to the UK for production or save. Note that at 19 x 0.5 = 9.5 = 10 BPs that to get the next BP would require 2 more PPs (i.e., 2 oil). That's a calculation each player must make. Is an additional BP for the CW at this stage worth more than 2 (more) oil saved to the UK?

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Ronnie

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 6:10:08 PM

rkr1958

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So now's the time for critical feedback. Is this of value and what was expected? And have I missed the mark and you want something else?

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Ronnie

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 6:13:31 PM

Centuur

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It looks like there are no unused convoys in the Med. Could it be that the Iraqi oil resource can't be saved in France? It looks like it. So let's save it in the "Paris of the Middle-east": Beirut.

To do so, I press the arrow button (next to Compute) to go to the default settings. Than I press the button "clear defaults", press the "save" button under Rail/Ship, select Beirut and press "compute".

Now, everything looks OK for France again? No. But now the solution is simple. Suddenly the Med has unused convoys. But the resource out of Indo China doesn't use them. So I clear the default of this resource and press "recompute". Et voil�!

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< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/18/2021 2:40:44 PM >

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Peter

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 6:14:26 PM

Centuur

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But is every other major power OK? I don't know. So again, press "switch major power" and check all other major powers. Only if you've cycled through the lot of them (all 5) again, and they are all OK, you can start pressing the "close" button for all major powers.

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Peter

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 9:02:49 PM

warspite1

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@ Centuur and rkr1958

Thanks guys. In the coming days I will go through these responses.

Much appreciated

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 9:54:46 PM

gw15

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Peter,
Show them how to specifically route a single resource from source to factory sea zone by sea zone.

The real challenge with production comes into play when lending resources beyond the default ones, I.e. build points to Russia. Those build points can come from India if you prefer.
Rkr, show them how to do that.

Being able to do those things proves you are a master which I�m not because I have to ask Peter all the time, �tell me again how to route that resource away from Bay of Biscay�.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 43

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/17/2021 11:28:59 PM

craigbear

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I think strategicly saving oil, or not transporting it as it will be reorganizing units later anyhow, is part of the trick. For example, I almost never move the Port of Spain Oil nor NEI resources once it is aligned. This tactic was well used in the examples. Saving Persia and Iraqi oil like was done allows non savable resources to be used/transported to factories rather than oil for production... which should be done as much as possible.

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Post #: 44

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 3:35:57 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Peter,
Show them how to specifically route a single resource from source to factory sea zone by sea zone.

The real challenge with production comes into play when lending resources beyond the default ones, I.e. build points to Russia. Those build points can come from India if you prefer.
Rkr, show them how to do that.

Being able to do those things proves you are a master which I�m not because I have to ask Peter all the time, �tell me again how to route that resource away from Bay of Biscay�.

warspite1

Centuur and rkr1958. Please don't do this. We will come to this as the game works through and the challenges on production get tougher.

Thank-you.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to gw15)

Post #: 45

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 5:58:30 AM

Orm

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So will CW trade resources, and oil, to France? And France a BP or two to CW?

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(in reply to warspite1)

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 7:46:14 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

So will CW trade resources, and oil, to France? And France a BP or two to CW?

warspite1

Yes, it's supposed to reflect the sort of things that happen in a 'typical' game, otherwise there is no point.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 2:35:39 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Peter,
Show them how to specifically route a single resource from source to factory sea zone by sea zone.

The real challenge with production comes into play when lending resources beyond the default ones, I.e. build points to Russia. Those build points can come from India if you prefer.
Rkr, show them how to do that.

Being able to do those things proves you are a master which I�m not because I have to ask Peter all the time, �tell me again how to route that resource away from Bay of Biscay�.

Hi Gerry. I will, but at the moment those things pop up for them.
And you are a master, since it has been a long, long time ago since you asked me those questions during netplay

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Peter

(in reply to gw15)

Post #: 48

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 6:53:03 PM

gw15

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Peter,
Show them how to specifically route a single resource from source to factory sea zone by sea zone.

The real challenge with production comes into play when lending resources beyond the default ones, I.e. build points to Russia. Those build points can come from India if you prefer.
Rkr, show them how to do that.

Being able to do those things proves you are a master which I�m not because I have to ask Peter all the time, �tell me again how to route that resource away from Bay of Biscay�.

warspite1

Centuur and rkr1958. Please don't do this. We will come to this as the game works through and the challenges on production get tougher.

Thank-you.

Sorry, I should not hijack your thread.

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 49

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/18/2021 7:19:32 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Peter,
Show them how to specifically route a single resource from source to factory sea zone by sea zone.

The real challenge with production comes into play when lending resources beyond the default ones, I.e. build points to Russia. Those build points can come from India if you prefer.
Rkr, show them how to do that.

Being able to do those things proves you are a master which I�m not because I have to ask Peter all the time, �tell me again how to route that resource away from Bay of Biscay�.

warspite1

Centuur and rkr1958. Please don't do this. We will come to this as the game works through and the challenges on production get tougher.

Thank-you.

Sorry, I should not hijack your thread.

warspite1

No biggie. We'll get to the more difficult bits all in good time

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to gw15)

Post #: 50

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 11:22:42 AM

wobbleguts

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Commonwealth

Please shout if these numbers are unclear

I can't see any numbers. They are invisible.

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 4:41:39 PM

warspite1

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Right so....

Germany first. As rkr said, there are no convoys at sea (the French cruisers took a heavy toll) so this is straightforward. The Germans get 15 BP's and can save 1 oil without reducing that number. The oil is saved in Berlin.

SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/19/2021 4:42:08 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 52

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 4:46:14 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

Similarly with Italy. They have the Sardinian convoy at sea. They decide to save an oil (in Milan) and all looks fine.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 53

RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 4:51:52 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

And finally Japan. Yes, the oil moves from being saved in Manchuria to Canton and so Japan still saves its two precious oil, but there are no longer any idle resources.

The Saved Oil Points look good for all three Axis powers.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 5:06:16 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

Bizarrely - or perhaps not with MWIF - Centuur said that in the game save I sent he said all 7 resources were flowing to factories. That wasn't the case with my game?!?! There were 2 idle resources showing.

But no matter. I clicked on one of the 2 idle resources, then clicked produce in the rail/ship and both idle resources suddenly found a home.

So China all okay. No change to their oil situation.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 5:14:24 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

The USSR is all good. One of the ten Soviet oils is saved (to Moscow) and so the USSR are saving maximum oil and there are no idle resources.

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 5:25:05 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

Next its the US and the Alaskan oil is saved (I choose Baltimore but any city will do). The resource is chosen and then save and Where To. Sometimes I notice you have to press save first.

So so far all very standard stuff and no mention of overrides and defaults and whatever.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 5:25:47 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 EoT

Now to France and the Commonwealth....

The Iraqi oil starts in production (which we want to maximise production) and the French Indo-China and New Caledonia resources start idle. There are no convoys for New Caledonia but FIC can be transported. Again I click on this idle resource and then press produce in the rail/ship box. I choose Lille (as this is one of the idle factories).

Ordinarily I would close France off, but Centuur says don't at this stage. And I can see why. As he says, because of the production multiple, I can save the Iraqi oil after all and still maintain 5 BP. I click on the trade received button, then the Iraqi oil and finally the save button in the rail/ship box.

However, there is room for Mr cock up bearing in mind the CW and French may share convoys and so I switch and don't close.

But this is where it gets frustrating because when the CW start to plan, so the French convoys get mucked up. But I'll post a summary of how this was fixed below.

Ultimately rkr1958 and Centuur have come up with slightly different ideas for the CW

- rkr accepts a BP less (10) but has (8!) saved oil
- Centuur keeps maximum production (11) but has 5 saved oil

Both have France with 1 saved oil, and Centuur has 5 BP for the French.

But I think something has gone awry with France for rkr1958 as there are two resources idle - and so only 4 BP instead of 5.

Either CW option is of course valid, depending on your strategy.

So this first turn has been relatively straightforward. It is obvious why the French can't increase production (no convoys for New Caledonia) and it is clear why the CW can't do the same (not enough convoys for Australia and Malaya). There are no idle oil points.

Before posting how the CW and French totals were achieved I will go through this without reference to rkr1958 and Centuur's notes to see how easy/difficult this is to maximise without a crib sheet to work from.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/20/2021 2:23:26 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 6:19:28 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 France (pre-CW)

So looking afresh at the French (and accepting I can't not see what I've seen) I think its still pretty straightforward. I know that I can't get convoys to New Caledonia but I should to everywhere else.

However if I try and transport the oil from Persia I will be using up convoys I need from the Far East. So the oil is saved in Beirut and all other resources are used.

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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/19/2021 7:58:02 PM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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RE: Centuur and rkr1958: a production masterclass - 2/19/2021 6:19:41 PM

warspite1

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SEP/OCT 1939 Commonwealth

The program default is - as Centuur says - really poor. The furthest oil from the UK is being sent to Glasgow to be saved, all other oil is used in production (transported to the UK), except the Burma oil which sits idle.....and two perfectly usable French resources are sitting idle... I suspect a lot of work is going to be needed here to make an AI even remotely capable.

It's useful to have the unused convoys box ticked here so as I stop the more extreme and wasteful convoy routes, so I see the convoys appear on the map becoming available.

So, first things first. I know I want some oil saved this turn and what I don't save I want to be the closest to the UK to save convoys.

So Burma oil is saved in Rangoon
NEI oil x 2 is saved in Singapore
Persia oil is saved in Amman

I only need 21 factories producing because of the production modifier to get the maximum 11 BP.

I now have 11 BP but only 4 saved oil. It is not obvious where I can get the fifth saved oil from. Ah - but then I see it. There are spare convoys from West Africa to South America. I can use these to get a South African resource to the UK (together with the convoys that transported the oil from Port of Spain to the UK - but won't be now doing so). Port of Spain oil is saved in place instead.

I have now achieved Centuur's nos. I quickly check the French and they too are okay. I'd never thought of keeping the unused convoy screen open when doing this before. It really helps!