RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs Beethoven (S)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs Beethoven (S)

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RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/29/2021 1:07:39 PM

carlkay58

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Historically the Soviets had 5M casualties by Dec 1 41 and 6M casualties by Jan 1 42 so they lost 1M men during the first month of their counterattacks. This is agreed upon by Glantz, Sharp, and one other Soviet OB expert that I cannot recall off the top of my head. This is referenced in Stahel's latest book on the Soviet Winter Offensive.

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 61

RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/29/2021 2:22:27 PM

Gam3r

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/2/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

- The AAR at this point is caught up to the same turn as the actual game, so any thoughts/suggestions for what do do in winter from readers would be appreciated. I haven't played in winter before and am undecided about what would be the best course of action and where to focus any attacks.

Make a stack of 3 CavCorps filled with tank brigades. Do a series of hasty attack on 1-1, 2-2 units. Aim: train tank brigades to a guard status, and eventually create Guard TankCorps in spring.
Also: collect all RD with #wins > 0 to a stack against weaker units. At ~7 wins they will be awarded with Guard status - make Guard RC.

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 62

RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/29/2021 7:33:41 PM

Beethoven1

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Joined: 3/25/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Historically the Soviets had 5M casualties by Dec 1 41 and 6M casualties by Jan 1 42 so they lost 1M men during the first month of their counterattacks. This is agreed upon by Glantz, Sharp, and one other Soviet OB expert that I cannot recall off the top of my head. This is referenced in Stahel's latest book on the Soviet Winter Offensive.

Currently I have ~2.3 million losses (500k KIA, 960k captured, 810k disabled) as of Oct 5. If Germany doesn't keep pushing, that is not going to get up to anything close to 5 million by Dec 1.

Also, 1 million losses in December in the winter offensive sounds like significantly more than Soviets took in your game against the AI.

I think there are several contributing factors to this (in no particular order):

a) Germany focused on pushing the north/Leningrad, which is harder due to the terrain and makes it easier for Soviets to get entrenched with decent defensive CVs.
b) After initially trying to fight in the south, I started running away and avoiding combat there. This was because it seemed to be not really viable to fight in clear terrain, and troops were needed in the north anyway.
c) Soviet temporary motorization made it more difficult for Germany to pocket units in early turns.
d) Even aside from that issue, Germany often chose to rout units rather than pocketing them, and focused on plowing forward more so than trying to get pockets. It seems to me like routing units is not an adequate substitute for pocketing them.

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 5/29/2021 7:35:30 PM >

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 63

RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/29/2021 7:37:13 PM

Beethoven1

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Turn 16 Air Phase ---

With the Luftwaffe gone, open season continued, at least in the south. In the south there was "only" light rain, whereas in the north there was heavy rain. It was decided once again to fly bombers in the light rain so that they would get shot down by rain drops rather than by German fighters. All manner of ports and railyards from Dnepropetrovsk/Stalino and southwards were bombed. This raid for example did 27% damage to the port at Sevastopol, at the cost of 28 bombers.

Tactical bomber ground attacks against Panzer divisions were less successful, resulting in the total loss of 67 tactical bombers (mostly IL-2s) which only managed to destroy 2 German tanks. This upset Stalin, who concluded that after all it was probably not worth bombing Panzer divisions in the rain when they were not fighting. Insofar as there is any benefit from bombing, a lot of it seems to come from disruption of ground elements rather than destroying them. Stalin pointed out that 67 T-34s could probably destroy more German tanks than the two tanks destroyed by the 67 IL-2s, and so Stalin ordered that all production of bombers be halted, and that bomber factories all be re-tooled to produce T-34's instead. Unfortunately, his quasi-capitalist industrialist planners ignored this order and continued producing worthless bombers instead. Stalin also suggested that perhaps the Soviet air force should be disbanded and all the pilots should become infantrymen. This suggestion was also ignored by treasonous pro-German sympathizers who had infiltrated the military staff and who had been responsible for the losses of Kiev and Smolensk in the months prior.

In total, 300 Soviet planes were lost, compared to 0 German planes, due to the fact that the Luftwaffe was nowhere to be seen:

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 64

RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/29/2021 7:39:02 PM

Beethoven1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

- The AAR at this point is caught up to the same turn as the actual game, so any thoughts/suggestions for what do do in winter from readers would be appreciated. I haven't played in winter before and am undecided about what would be the best course of action and where to focus any attacks.

Make a stack of 3 CavCorps filled with tank brigades. Do a series of hasty attack on 1-1, 2-2 units. Aim: train tank brigades to a guard status, and eventually create Guard TankCorps in spring.
Also: collect all RD with #wins > 0 to a stack against weaker units. At ~7 wins they will be awarded with Guard status - make Guard RC.

I will try to do that, currently though I still have a lot of tank divisions with a decent # of tanks, so I may get fewer converting to tank brigades early. Also at least so far I have put the tank brigades that have been added in reserve to 50% TOE, and most of my tanks are going into the tank divisions that are on the map. Hmmmm.

(in reply to Gam3r)

Post #: 65

RE: The Great Temporarily Motoriotic War - Bread (G) vs... - 5/30/2021 1:42:21 AM

Beethoven1

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End of turn 16 ---

Nothing much happened...

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE VELIKIE LUKI GREAT PATRIOTIC MUD OFFENSIVE!

At the appointed time, Soviet officers all along the front between Starya Russa and Velikie Luki blew their whistles, and the troops of the Reserve Front climbed out of their trenches and marched forward. They were greeted by... nothing... no Germans, empty hexes (at least some of the hexes).

If heavy forest hexes are undefended during heavy mud, there is not much risk for me to walk into them. So I will. This makes the front line awkward in this sector for Germany, and he will have to deal with it somehow. I simply have more hexes that I can slide around in the wilderness, and if he doesn't do something to withdraw and/or reinforce the sector, I could encircle an infantry regiment or two. This is good defensive terrain that, if I can take some if it now, will be easier to take while it is undefended than it will be later in the game.

Of course, there are downsides... Mainly, it makes my logistics a bit worse, and falling back improves German logistics somewhat. But... Free heavy forest hexes!

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 5/30/2021 1:43:11 AM >

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 66

RE: The Great Patriotic Mud Offensive - Bread (G) vs Be... - 5/30/2021 2:20:45 AM

Beethoven1

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Start of turn 17 ---

The weather forecast for next week is heavy mud in the north, light everywhere else. It is basically the same weather this week:

For the first time, Soviets have more men on the map than the Axis does:

It appears that at least some of the Luftwaffe is back (presumably a few fighters):

The only real action was in reaction to the Great Patriotic Mud Offensive. Two Soviet Mud Offending divisions were routed and Germany started straightening out its line a bit, but there are still some gaps:

And that is all there was, just those two battles in the German action phase.

Also, I discussed with Bread, and we agreed that for now I will plan for a normal winter offensive, and we will see how things go and if necessary make some adjustments later on to ensure that 1942 is fun. Bread explained that his reason for stopping attacking is that in another game he was playing, he ran out of trucks in 1942 and all his Panzer divisions only had 6 movement points (!). So this German strategy may end up working out better than that. We shall see!

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 5/30/2021 2:21:41 AM >

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 67

RE: The Great Patriotic Mud Offensive - Bread (G) vs Be... - 6/10/2021 9:05:29 AM

Hardradi

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Joined: 2/9/2011
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I didn't realise that the OOB only shows on map units,eg, in this case the Luftwaffe has gone to ground. Something to keep an eye on.

To me, I imagine that winter 1941 the first time period when you get to have some real fun. What does a "normal winter offensive" entail?

(in reply to Beethoven1)

Post #: 68

RE: The Great Patriotic Mud Offensive - Bread (G) vs Be... - 6/12/2021 7:56:40 PM

Beethoven1

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End of Turn 17 ---

The Great Patriotic Mud Offensive resumed with further marching through the muddy wilderness:

End of Turn 19 ---

The Great Patriotic Mud Offensive has finally been stopped more or less by German troops finally managing to fill in their line. Other than that, nothing has really visibly happened and the lines have not changed. There is no attempt by Germany to attack anywhere really right now, they are just digging in for winter apparently:

< Message edited by Beethoven1 -- 6/12/2021 8:06:02 PM >

(in reply to Hardradi)

Post #: 69

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