Adjustments to the 1941 Start

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Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 4:19:50 PM

incbob

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There has been much talk about whether the Japanese are overpowered at the start of 1941 or not. Whether they have enough oil, etc.

#1 Japan should be overpowered.
If Japan is invading India or Australia before February 1942 they are leaving something wide open. The problem with right now is they can do this because the Allies cannot strike back and the player knows this.

#2 Japan should have about 80 more oil in starting stockpile.
Having played Japan a couple of beginnings I do believe Japan should have about a further 80 oil in their stockpile. On the first turn, to invade and do all they have to do, Japan uses around 50 oil. On their second turn Japan can use about the same. That means by the time they hit January 4th they have enough fuel for that turn, but nothing afterword. Japan should be able to last till February before they need are running out.

#3 The US should start with 20 transports and 20 landing craft.
Currently the way the game is setup the Japanese know they have 0 threat from the US. This threat of the US landing a division could reign in the Japanese a little preventing them from just bypassing places and going directly to India or Australia.

Example:
As the Japanese currently I have no need to invade Wake Island, Guam, or Tarawa. Why should I? The Americans cannot reinforce them. The earliest the US can get a single transport, good for 1 division, is March 23rd. This means I can effectively ignore Wake, Guam, and Tarawa and invade them in say February or so. With the US starting with 20 transports they do not have enough to drastically change things, but they have enough to move some air units and to be a threat that Japan has to take seriously. If I, as Japan, know that that US has some transports I now have to invade Wake, Guam, and Tarawa for fear that the US moves into them.

#4 It would pressure the Japanese to complete their conquest.
Currently the US can have landing craft, in numbers, by mid-March 1942. With 20 transports and getting some more in March and early April it would pressure the Japanese to get conquest done because by the Middle of April into June the US is ready to Strike.

Post #: 1

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 4:28:59 PM

incbob

Posts: 727
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One issue I do see with the above is that it could mean the US could invade in force by April and May. 1-3 months earlier than the really could have.
My suggestions for this are

a) hard code that the US cannot build landing craft till late February or March.
b) increase the time it takes to build landing craft.

(in reply to incbob)

Post #: 2

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 4:31:20 PM

gwgardner

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Make a small mod and try it out.

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 4:39:49 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Make a small mod and try it out.

The editor does not allow me to go above 200 in oil so now way of changing Japan.

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Post #: 4

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 4:52:23 PM

incbob

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Figured it out.

Uploaded to scenario and mods

< Message edited by incbob -- 5/17/2021 4:56:22 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 5:19:19 PM

stjeand

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I see you figured out the oil...
But if not...just give the Japanese say 20 per turn until you hit the 80...or 10 per turn for longer if they are not using enough.

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Post #: 6

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 5:48:21 PM

stjeand

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If you are going to start the US with landing craft instead make them build them. Then you may not have to "lock" them out of building them.

The issue with transports is they can try to get out some of their forces that are supposed to be destroyed...so maybe they get some in January that way the Japanese have say a month to expand before they can reinforce...

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 6:10:52 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand
The issue with transports is they can try to get out some of their forces that are supposed to be destroyed...so maybe they get some in January that way the Japanese have say a month to expand before they can reinforce...

I am not happy with giving the US landing craft and making them build the might be right.

As far as the Allies getting "out some of their forces that are supposed to be destroyed," I am not sure what you mean. The only units the US can get out are those in the Philippines and possibly the Wake Island garrison.

If they try to move the Philippine unit it should get destroyed by either Japanese naval or air forces. I could see them getting away with the Wake force, but do not know what I could do about it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 8

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 6:29:28 PM

eskuche

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I would at this point still wait and see how the meta shapes out. Philippines divisions can probably escape to Darwin unmolested.

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Post #: 9

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:25:12 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche
I would at this point still wait and see how the meta shapes out. Philippines divisions can probably escape to Darwin unmolested.

I understand what you mean by meta, but I do not understand waiting for it.

As the issue stands not there is no reason for Japan to invade Tarawa and Guam. I can understand invading Wake on turn 1 in order to keep the US Marines there from reinforcing and being a very strong division. But there is nothing on Tarawa and Guam and there won't be till mid-march at the earliest. So can anyone give me a reason why not to use the units slated for those invasions elsewhere and invade Guam and Tarawa in February?

At most the only thing I can see is that that in February the US navy might come out to play. Fine, I take my 6 CVs, who are free now that I have 2 more units to conquer everything else, against at most 4 CVs and maybe a CVL if they take the Hermes out of the Indian Ocean.

Even if lose 1 to 1. I am left with 2 CVs, I get a CVL in April, A CV in May, a CV in July, and another CVL in Nov. The US is left with 0 CVs, getting one in March, one in June and one in December. At the absolute worst I have a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 advantage until The US gets their early 1943 CVs.

As I further look into it, I can see that perhaps giving landing craft to the US is to much, but I think they need some transports to be a threat.

< Message edited by incbob -- 5/17/2021 9:26:02 PM >

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:35:09 PM

eskuche

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I use only the 1-3 strength garrisons to invade undefended islands, since they cost fewer landing craft. This should probably be re-visited in terms of balance. The timer for invasion is emanation of recon from untaken islands, which can really ruin your day if you're planning any kind of secret moves.

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:39:53 PM

incbob

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I had not considered the recon value.

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:43:46 PM

eskuche

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:46:39 PM

eskuche

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 9:48:06 PM

incbob

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I also want to say your idea of invading with the smaller weakened divisions is brilliant.

But is also points out to why there needs to be some kind of threat to make the Japanese want to take the US islands. You can wait. The Japanese didn't want to wait for fear the US would reinforce the islands and put aircraft on them, something I, as a player no is IMPOSSIBLE.

I don't want to recreate re play out history. I want a game that makes is realistic enough that I have to make some of the same choices the real people made.

Perhaps giving the islands a certain small amount of VPs that tick and add to the Allies total each turn they haven't been taken?

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/17/2021 10:49:44 PM

Peek101

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I think an idea worth trying is to reduce the amount of Japanese landing ships at start to just enough to cover landing all the ground units that begin the scenario already embarked in transports. This wil give the Japanese the capability to invade the DEI, Phillipines, Borneo, Rabaul and some of the islands in the Central Pacific but prevent them from making total unhistorical moves like landing in Australia at the same time as all the other invasions. The Japanese could start building more landing ships to support further invasions but the earliest they would be ready would be mid March, which is also the time the Allies start getting transports. So if the Japanese didn't take the Central Pacific islands in their initial turn they would run the risk of the Allies being able to get to them first.

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/18/2021 3:16:12 PM

stjeand

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As for the US escaping units...

I think if you give the Allies 10 transports say on turn 3 or 4...that would be early enough to do something...AND it give the Japanese time to destroy those units so that they can't get away.

IF they do not want to destroy them then their loss and US gain.

That would put a timer on the Japanese having to take Wake and the Philippines, not that they plan to leave either for to long.

Regarding Japanese landing ships...you could reduce them but then add them in the future on specific dates...
Time to invade the DEI...here are 50 LC...

(in reply to Peek101)

Post #: 17

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/19/2021 2:02:39 AM

Blond_Knight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

The editor does not allow me to go above 200 in oil so now way of changing Japan.

So how did you work around the 200 oil limit in the editor?

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Post #: 18

RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/19/2021 2:22:59 AM

incbob

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Reloaded and it let me go higher. Not sure why. Not sure what happened.

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RE: Adjustments to the 1941 Start - 5/19/2021 12:23:19 PM

CreamyGoodness

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When the Dutch surrendered the NEI on March 8, 1942 the Japanese had already taken Borneo, Celebes, Ambon, Timor and Bali. Most of the Allied ships defending the region had been sunk, Singapore had surrendered and the Americans in the Philippines were just hanging on in Bataan. The Dutch situation was clearly hopeless without any prospect of help. I'm not so sure the Dutch would have been surrendering the whole of the NEI in the second week of December, 1941 if so far only Java had been lost.

The first turn surrender of the NEI seems to be giving the Japanese player a free pass to invade India or Australia early in 1942. If the Japanese player had to do more to secure a surrender of the NEI than the game currently requires then that would tie up assets that would otherwise be rampaging elsewhere and burn some of that oil stockpile that seems to be lower than it should be. The operational tempo of the Japanese expansion might better match history as well.

The counter-argument is that if the Japanese player doesn't take the NEI on the first turn then the Allied player will pull out all the stops to protect the NEI and starve the Japanese of oil. I'm curious what that strategy actually entails since the comments in this thread indicate that it can't include American land forces and that the Allied player is initially powerless to halt the Japanese anywhere.

(in reply to incbob)

Post #: 20