A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and Caliber Rebalancing

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A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and Caliber Rebalancing

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> War Room >> A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and Caliber Rebalancing

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A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and Calib... - 7/6/2021 3:51:09 AM

Overlord015

Posts: 46
Joined: 1/20/2015
Status: offline

On light infantry, I think some changes that could be made to them, in order to further refine their role and usefulness could be to make them even cheaper to airlift and strat move than currently. On top of the aforementioned, the malus taken when moved in either of the two suggested ways could be reduced to guarantee that the unit's readiness does not go below 75%. I think these simple changes would open up a whole new realm of both tactical and strategic options for players, and maybe even the AI as well whether on the offense or the defense (seizing critical nodes and infra with paratroopers anyone?).

The topic of differentiating Mech artillery and towed artillery seems to be one that pops up frequently. In order to resolve this I think Mechanized artillery should get a bonus to both attack and defense when fighting other artillery, mostly to represent their ability to more effectively engage in counter-fires than traditional towed artillery.

To further differentiate them, and make choosing between calibers more meaningful it could be made so higher and lower calibers have an inverse relationship. This could also be introduced in the case of direct-fire systems, although not to the extent that high velocity rounds would be rendered obsolete by high caliber howitzers and vice-versa:

- This means higher calibers would trend towards higher hard target damage and maybe even the ability to reduce unit entrenchment bonuses (a neat way to introduce siege guns to deal with bunkerized positions IMO), and a movement malus at higher calibers.

- Meanwhile, lower calibers have higher soft damage until a certain point where they instead lose damage, but gain extra attacks against soft targets and a movement bonus. Maybe even the ability to equalize its movement to dismounted infantry instead of a flat movement bonus.

- The latter would have the bonus of serving as a simpler, and abstracted way to introduce mortars without having to add a new model. Maybe even consider having the unit art change to that of a mortar when using lower calibers if feasible too. This would introduce a neat way of simulating the use of mountain guns and/or mortars for dedicated light infantry.

Post #: 1

RE: A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and C... - 7/6/2021 3:53:29 AM

Overlord015

Posts: 46
Joined: 1/20/2015
Status: offline

Crap, just noticed I posted this on the wrong section. My apologies, admins please move? Or is there a way for me to do so?

(in reply to Overlord015)

Post #: 2

RE: A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and C... - 7/6/2021 12:46:15 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

For me the key rebalancing should be to nerf armored units (tanks and APCs) against entrenched units

right now it is too easy to steamroll once you get mechanized units

(in reply to Overlord015)

Post #: 3

RE: A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and C... - 7/8/2021 1:18:31 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

In order to resolve this I think Mechanized artillery should get a bonus to both attack and defense when fighting other artillery, mostly to represent their ability to more effectively engage in counter-fires than traditional towed artillery.

They already do, though not specifically against artillery.

quote:

- This means higher calibers would trend towards higher hard target damage and maybe even the ability to reduce unit entrenchment bonuses (a neat way to introduce siege guns to deal with bunkerized positions IMO), and a movement malus at higher calibers.

They already do, for both, coming from hard armour having higher thickness and higher calibre having higher weight (though the last one doesn't matter for towed artillery).

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 4

RE: A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and C... - 12/10/2021 7:31:42 AM

Don_Kiyote

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

...Suggestions come easy with this game.

Something like a Light Infantry or Paratrooper model would be great.

I also imagined dirt-bike troops for mountainous terrain. With tiny, ultra-efficient electric engines, and polymer body armour. The whole unit design module of the game is a mini-game in itself, and there are many easily imaginable ways to deepen it. I mean, there are looots of new units which come to mind, which would fit in nicely, for special purposes and "to suit your play-style".

Buuuut.... there is one big problem with all of these new dream-toys. It's a fatal one, actually. The AI would must be able to use the new models, too.

As you may have noticed, the AI is quite capable in simple situations, but it barely knows (as of my last session) how to use the Air Force for planes, let alone Paratroopers. In my video-game experience, bi-modal stuff, like Paratroopers or Amphibious landings, are almost impossible for an AI to execute at all, let alone with any competence.

Alas :/

Some other stuff you mention might come easier though.

quote:

Meanwhile, lower calibers have higher soft damage until a certain point where they instead lose damage, but gain extra attacks against soft targets and a movement bonus.

An Infantry Gun/Mortar design would definitely be cool.

BlueTemplar is right about this "inverse relationship" (as you call it) already existing to some extent. But because movement for regular artillery is always simply achieved via being towed by an invisible, free 'artillery tractor' lets call it, so then in game terms, smaller artillery just means the 'tractor' is also proportionately smaller, I can imagine lower caliber guns being towed by something like a Kettenkrad (as in Girls Tour), or maybe a tiny cargo robot about the size of a breadbox. And the infantry are slowed as they follow around this pokey little tractor... if you can picture that.

So, yes, the bare-bones simulation of Artillery is limited in this way: there is no advantage to small guns. But in real life, light guns have a good history of being important all through the ages to all sorts of infantry. afaik. So, assuming the AI could use them, lets say this is a good suggestion.

< Message edited by Don_Kiyote -- 2/18/2022 3:51:49 AM >

(in reply to Overlord015)

Post #: 5

RE: A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and C... - 12/10/2021 12:17:42 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

On light infantry, I think some changes that could be made to them, in order to further refine their role and usefulness could be to make them even cheaper to airlift and strat move than currently. On top of the aforementioned, the malus taken when moved in either of the two suggested ways could be reduced to guarantee that the unit's readiness does not go below 75%. I think these simple changes would open up a whole new realm of both tactical and strategic options for players, and maybe even the AI as well whether on the offense or the defense (seizing critical nodes and infra with paratroopers anyone?).

While I agree paratroopers would be awesome, for practical purposes they are not a thing that far above the strategic level.
Remember that each Hex is 200km. Each turn is 2 months.

The entirety of Opreation Overlord - including all paratrooper landings and the liberation of paris - fits in to 1 hex and 1 month.
So that operation - from SE point of scale - was fighting over one hex and "still having AP left over afterwards". That is how far up the scale is. Paratroopers are more a combat action (like firing artillery) then a strategic choice.

quote:

The topic of differentiating Mech artillery and towed artillery seems to be one that pops up frequently. In order to resolve this I think Mechanized artillery should get a bonus to both attack and defense when fighting other artillery, mostly to represent their ability to more effectively engage in counter-fires than traditional towed artillery.

They kinda do by being able to carry armor. And armor is quite effect agaisnt artillery (low damage per attack, 1/3 the callibre in ranged attacks).
Not sure if it needs more bonus.

quote:

To further differentiate them, and make choosing between calibers more meaningful it could be made so higher and lower calibers have an inverse relationship. This could also be introduced in the case of direct-fire systems, although not to the extent that high velocity rounds would be rendered obsolete by high caliber howitzers and vice-versa:

- This means higher calibers would trend towards higher hard target damage and maybe even the ability to reduce unit entrenchment bonuses (a neat way to introduce siege guns to deal with bunkerized positions IMO), and a movement malus at higher calibers.

- Meanwhile, lower calibers have higher soft damage until a certain point where they instead lose damage, but gain extra attacks against soft targets and a movement bonus. Maybe even the ability to equalize its movement to dismounted infantry instead of a flat movement bonus.

- The latter would have the bonus of serving as a simpler, and abstracted way to introduce mortars without having to add a new model. Maybe even consider having the unit art change to that of a mortar when using lower calibers if feasible too. This would introduce a neat way of simulating the use of mountain guns and/or mortars for dedicated light infantry.

I had a similar idea:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4952524

My idea boils down to:
Artillery has a fixed base Firepower.
Bigger Artillery has a bigger divider. So with a bigger gun so you got fewer attacks, that hurt a lot more.
While small artillery has a lot of attacks, but lacks killing power (and range).

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 12/10/2021 12:18:13 PM >

(in reply to Overlord015)

Post #: 6

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> War Room >> A few suggestions: Light Infantry, Artillery, and Caliber Rebalancing

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