RE: Soviet T1 moves

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RE: Soviet T1 moves - 9/30/2021 8:00:45 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Larry

Looks like you�re a victim of the old �killer� first move. Wonder what Barbarossa would have been like if the Wehrmacht had a bunch of practice tries before the real assault. This is what�s expected when playing the same scenario multiple times. Everyone knows what�s coming and that is just the way the game is played. Maybe some random Soviet deployments would make the opening move more challenging.

What does bother me a little bit is the use of units in roles for which they were not designed or intended. In this game, and others before, MP, engineer, bridging and AA units are commonly deployed as deep reconnaissance maneuver units. I realize that this is all within the TOAW rules, but I find it unrealistic when an air defense or engineer unit makes a deep, unsupported, penetration behind enemy lines. Wish there was a way to make these units more valuable in their intended function so they wouldn�t be recklessly used in the deep reconnaissance or encirclement mode. Guess it�s a TOAW/scenario design issue.

Good shooting & best regards

Agreed. Generally I find the solution with the support units is to bundle them, so the MPs and AA go with the HQ. The HQ is going to want to be where most of the troops are anyway so this is more realistic.

In terms of the opening, I've said it before and I'll say it again: what's needed is a scenario that starts after the Wehrmacht was done chewing through the frontier armies. Then we won't be agonising over whether a panzer unit can reach Daugavpils on schedule, or over the perfect first turn, or whether the Soviets running away is realistic. Yes, researching such a scenario would be a lot more work- but it would save a lot of time of players going through the motions.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 9/30/2021 8:02:28 AM >

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Post #: 151

RE: Soviet T1 moves - 9/30/2021 8:08:53 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

. . . what's needed is a scenario that starts after the Wehrmacht was done chewing through the frontier armies.

My observation is that the greatest appeal of scenarios such as Barbarossa is playing the initial onslaught against an inferior force. Second would be playing the inferior force and denying the aggressor his pleasure. After the opening phase the game usually boils down to limited maneuver and brute force. This is true not only with Barbarossa, but others such as Italian Front - Caporetto 1917, Ardennes 1944 and Fulda 55 2.0. Starting the scenario after the initial phase has merit, but I think the designer would need to build in elements of maneuver and unpredictability in order for the scenario to escape the WW I brute force syndrome.

Maybe an alternate solution would be to add a Force 1 Theater Option on turn one to select either a historical scenario (as it is today) or a non-historical randomized scenario. Non-historical might add a few additional formations selected from a large pool, change supply levels, replacement levels, objective track, automatic R/R repair value or shock allocations. I think this would make the killer first turn more difficult and inject a bit of realistic �what-if�. Keep the scenario�s historical fidelity and add a bit of replay value. Just some thoughts.

Regards

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Post #: 152

RE: Soviet T1 moves - 9/30/2021 11:07:38 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
. . . what's needed is a scenario that starts after the Wehrmacht was done chewing through the frontier armies.

My observation is that the greatest appeal of scenarios such as Barbarossa is playing the initial onslaught against an inferior force. Second would be playing the inferior force and denying the aggressor his pleasure. After the opening phase the game usually boils down to limited maneuver and brute force. This is true not only with Barbarossa, but others such as Italian Front - Caporetto 1917, Ardennes 1944 and Fulda 55 2.0. Starting the scenario after the initial phase has merit, but I think the designer would need to build in elements of maneuver and unpredictability in order for the scenario to escape the WW I brute force syndrome.

Maybe an alternate solution would be to add a Force 1 Theater Option on turn one to select either a historical scenario (as it is today) or a non-historical randomized scenario. Non-historical might add a few additional formations selected from a large pool, change supply levels, replacement levels, objective track, automatic R/R repair value or shock allocations. I think this would make the killer first turn more difficult and inject a bit of realistic �what-if�. Keep the scenario�s historical fidelity and add a bit of replay value. Just some thoughts.

Regards

What a wonderful sparkling conversation. Good ideas from everybody involved. You guys are hitting on all cylinders and everything you say is spot on. May I make a suggestion?
Elmer has 5 tracks for the PO....may I suggest we use all 5 for differing goals? Is there a way to chose which track is used at random? By an event or something?

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Post #: 153

RE: Soviet T1 moves - 10/1/2021 4:53:09 AM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

What a wonderful sparkling conversation. Good ideas from everybody involved. You guys are hitting on all cylinders and everything you say is spot on. May I make a suggestion?

Sometimes it�s difficult to determine whether a person is sucking up or genuinely being a good guy. With you Mr. Spooky, I have no doubt that you are one of the good guys.

In the editor I took a look at FITE2. All 5 tracks are used for the Axis side. However, the Allied side is only programed for track #1. This indicates that when the scenario is played in the solitaire mode, the design is for a Soviet (Cheyenne) opponent against the Axis PO. Hence multiple Axis tracks and only one Allied track. The singular Allied track appears to be a diagnostic troubleshooting track.

To answer your question, yes. Objective tracks can be selected using Theater Options or events. They can be triggered by turn, event or Theater Option. The trick for the scenario designer is to ensure that switching objective tracks does not violate the orders of the original objective track. As an example, track #1 directs a formation to go right, track #2 changes the direction to the left. The designer needs to make sure that these orders are congruent and do not cause the formation to make chaotic moves.

Regards

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Post #: 154

RE: Soviet T1 moves - 10/1/2021 10:30:05 AM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
...

Agreed. Generally I find the solution with the support units is to bundle them, so the MPs and AA go with the HQ. The HQ is going to want to be where most of the troops are anyway so this is more realistic.
...

That just turns HQs into really powerful front-line units.

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Post #: 155

RE: Soviet T1 moves - 10/1/2021 10:43:20 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima

That just turns HQs into really powerful front-line units.

Really? With 12 MP squads and 36 AA guns you're going to put the HQ in the frontline going toe-to-toe with infantry regiments?

Add that one normally sticks the artillery in the HQ as well. You're going to want the HQ behind the line doing HQ stuff.

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Post #: 156

RE: Soviet T2 moves - 10/6/2021 9:57:10 PM

larryfulkerson

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It's now T2 and Ken is arriving at Minsk already. I'm astonished that he got there so fast.

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Post #: 157

RE: Soviet T2 moves - 10/12/2021 4:18:29 AM

larryfulkerson

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Here's the T3 view of Minsk right now. Ken's units arrived last turn and now have managed to surround my valient defenders. I don't expect them to last very long.

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Post #: 158

RE: Soviet T3 moves - 10/12/2021 4:32:02 AM

larryfulkerson

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I've started to park my AAA units on those river crossings that are vulnerable to air attack in an effort to encourage Ken to go bomb something else. Ken has dropped over a dozen of my bridges already. This is something I should have been doing since the beginning of the game.

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Post #: 159

RE: Soviet T3 moves - 10/17/2021 1:02:21 AM

larryfulkerson

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It's now T4 and Ken's units are now arriving at Pskov already. My roadblocks won't last long.

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Post #: 160

RE: Soviet T4 moves - 10/17/2021 1:15:23 AM

larryfulkerson

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This is the Murmansk situation. The Axis units are slowly pushing my defenders backward and will be at the city in a few turns. I need to rail some more troops into this AO.

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Post #: 161

RE: Soviet T4 moves - 10/17/2021 3:21:43 AM

larryfulkerson

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I had occasion to rail 37 units of various kinds from the deep south areas near Turkey to near Rostov and I would have railed them to the extent of their MP's but I ran into a couple of busted bridges that Ken dropped either this turn or in one of the past four turns. Ken has been attacking my bridges like it's going out of style and my bridges are disappearing faster than a Russian journalist. I'm thinking of maybe building a huge tall thick wall around Moscow and making the Mexicans pay for it. I alone can fix it. And I'll make everyone wear a mask just because I can.

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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 10/17/2021 3:22:18 AM >

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Post #: 162

RE: Soviet T4 moves - 10/17/2021 3:26:37 AM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I would have railed them to the extent of their MP's but I ran into a couple of busted bridges . . .

Better hope the next round of air attacks aren't against your embarked units!

Regards

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Post #: 163

RE: Soviet T4 moves - 10/17/2021 3:28:54 AM

larryfulkerson

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Holy $hit. I hadn't thought of that and now none of my aa units can move. D'oh.

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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 10/17/2021 3:29:26 AM >

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Post #: 164

RE: Soviet T4 moves - 10/26/2021 9:44:28 PM

larryfulkerson

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Ken has surrounded my valient defenders at Minsk and has moved on with the rest of his forces. I'm not going to be able to hold out for very long. He will soon own the city.

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Post #: 165

RE: Soviet T5 moves - 10/26/2021 9:49:46 PM

larryfulkerson

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Ken is getting closer and closer to Kiev. I'm putting garrisons at the crossings in an effort to delay them getting on the east side of the river. But he's got engineers and getting across the river should be no big problem for his forces.

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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 10/26/2021 9:50:02 PM >

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Post #: 166

RE: Soviet T5 moves - 11/2/2021 10:03:33 PM

larryfulkerson

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Ken has gotten some of his Axis units across the river somehow and now Kiev is under threat. I'm thinking of railing some more folks into that area to deal with them.

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Post #: 167

RE: Soviet T6 moves - 11/2/2021 10:14:47 PM

larryfulkerson

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Ken has defeated my defenders at Pskov and now the way to Leningrad is completely open.

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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 11/2/2021 10:15:00 PM >

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Post #: 168

RE: Soviet T6 moves - 11/3/2021 12:55:47 PM

larryfulkerson

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This is the front lines in T6

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Post #: 169

RE: Soviet T17 moves - 11/12/2021 7:09:34 PM

larryfulkerson

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I have received Ken's T17 moves and watched the entire playback and he had over 34K events.

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Post #: 170

RE: Soviet T17 moves - 11/17/2021 6:37:02 AM

larryfulkerson

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Here's the end of the playback of Ken's latest set of moves. I received it about noon and watched the whole thing. He's crushing me again.

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Post #: 171

RE: Soviet T17 moves - 12/5/2021 4:34:30 AM

larryfulkerson

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There seems to be something wrong with our equipment file. One of the items is labeled "EMPTY" and it seems to be some kind of RR arty or something. I could fix that easily but I need to know what to name it. Anybody have a preference?

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Post #: 172

RE: Soviet T17 moves - 12/5/2021 2:56:02 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

There seems to be something wrong with our equipment file. One of the items is labeled "EMPTY" and it seems to be some kind of RR arty or something. I could fix that easily but I need to know what to name it. Anybody have a preference?

Gunny McGunface?

Judging by the HEAT rating and the defence value there's more going on here than an incorrect label, but since there are none in your OOB and none in replacements it doesn't seem critical to me.

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Post #: 173

RE: Soviet T17 moves - 12/23/2021 12:46:05 AM

larryfulkerson

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I have good news and bad news. The good news is that the development team has produced a new version and it needs to be tested before being released into the wild. I'm the one to test that bad boy so this AAR will come to an abrupt end. I'm posting about my test on the development board with the hope that they will eventually move it to the public board.