Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I would put one Burmese base force in each base from the Burmese border to Kunming. You can then have fighters at each base with engineers and some AAA. They can also build up the base and fortifications. You can then use those bases to stage the Chinese Air Farce to India where it can train the fighter pilots as well as some bomber pilots.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I would put one Burmese base force in each base from the Burmese border to Kunming. You can then have fighters at each base with engineers and some AAA. They can also build up the base and fortifications. You can then use those bases to stage the Chinese Air Farce to India where it can train the fighter pilots as well as some bomber pilots.

My perspective was to send some AS from a fragmented HQ or something similar (like the mighty AF Coy of the Japanese player). Those BFs are badly needed in China proper, where my AS is awful.

Also, Chinese fighters are currently heavy engaged around. They don't do much, but they're doing their honest work without incurring in catastrophic losses. I use them as either second-line fighters or cannon fodder supporting the valuable Flying Tigers.



A question here: where and how do I use Chinese construction units?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I would put one Burmese base force in each base from the Burmese border to Kunming. You can then have fighters at each base with engineers and some AAA. They can also build up the base and fortifications. You can then use those bases to stage the Chinese Air Farce to India where it can train the fighter pilots as well as some bomber pilots.

My perspective was to send some AS from a fragmented HQ or something similar (like the mighty AF Coy of the Japanese player). Those BFs are badly needed in China proper, where my AS is awful.

Also, Chinese fighters are currently heavy engaged around. They don't do much, but they're doing their honest work without incurring in catastrophic losses. I use them as either second-line fighters or cannon fodder supporting the valuable Flying Tigers.



A question here: where and how do I use Chinese construction units?

I would send them to "must have" bases where you don't have a lot of ground troops with engineers. That includes those mountain bases from Kunming to Burma. The Allies can supply those from Ledo as long as you don't lose that base with its supply routes.

Eventually, you will have to remove your air units from China if he puts in a show of force, gets lucky, or both. Once the flying Tigers leave, then those Chinese P-40Bs made to a Swedish order will be available to Chinese air units - especially with PDU ON.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Soerabaja is always a trap for Allied ships in the first four months of the war. Force Z should bug out immediately and head to a place Netties cannot yet reach. After that, it must disappear for a while to shake of the hunters. If repairs or upgrades are needed, there is nothing wrong with retreating to Cape Town for a while. It will drive your opponent crazy not knowing if they are going to spring an ambush so he will have to strongly escort all his invasions.

The additional US carrier should be concentrated with the others IMO. Some players spread them around to pick at the Japanese perimeter here and there but that seems like more risk than potential gain. I say keep them from being sunk until you can get aircraft types and pilot experience up to levels that can fight KB with a good chance of even damage. Knowing where KB is and hitting elsewhere is good training.

quote:

- NOPAC
Objective(s): retaking the Aleutinians.
Rationale: threatening the Kurili/Hokkaido/Sakhalin area and entailing a vigorous defense from the Japanese side
Forces: minor
Carrier support: feeble

quote:

- CENPAC

Objective(s): holding the Line Islands and Johnston Island. Retaking Midway. Move against Canton Island or, if possible, Gilberts directly.
Rationale: Midway covers the southern flank of my operations in the Aleutinians and it's a pain in the @ss for my entire northern CENPAC area. Gilberts/Phoenix Islands/Ellice Islands make an eventual defense of Figi/Noumea very difficult.This should create the need for the Japanese player to possibly abandon Figi/Noumea and especially strongly defend Rabaul/Salomons/Marshalls. It also threatens to cutoff any eventual Australian adventure.
Forces: this will fall on the USMC due to the amount of amph landings needed.
Carrier support: heavy

quote:

- SOPAC

Objective(s): variable, ideally keeping Suva+Australia+PM+NZ. More realistically, I need to be prepared to be enclosed in two long sieges in Sydney and Melbourne in case IJA goes wild. From my direct experience, it requires months to reduce a 2,000AV fortress Sidney/Melbourne. And, more importantly, it blocks a dozen IJA divisions and all BBs/CAs for the time being.
Rationale: supporting CENPAC line of advance creating both threats to the western japanese flank and obliging the Japanese to further spread his forces
Forces: Australians and 3xUSArmy divisions (24th+25th+Americal)
Carrier support: feeble
Bonus: creating a threat on the Perth-Java axis

quote:

- DEI

Objective(s): hold as long as possible
Rationale: slowing down IJA and requiring KB intervention in the sector in order to gain time for my forces to be deployed around the map
Forces: what's initially there plus USN CVs and CAs
Carrier support: heavy

quote:

- CBI

Objective(s): counterattack and allow supplies to flow into China
Rationale: keeping China alive
Forces: a multi-national force with all the available reinforcements present around the map. Roughly, USMC + 3xUSArmy ID will be devoted to CENPAC and SOPAC, the rest goes here
Carrier support: feeble

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Some thoughts:

quote:

- NOPAC
Objective(s): retaking the Aleutinians.
Rationale: threatening the Kurili/Hokkaido/Sakhalin area and entailing a vigorous defense from the Japanese side
Forces: minor
Carrier support: feeble

Seems appropriate, but this is not an area that should be getting substantial reinforcements in 1942. Outside of Adak, there's not much worth holding up here. A good interim goal is getting the bases west of Kodiak developed so that you can fly the restricted air groups in the West Coast up here to contribute (and free up aircraft for operations elsewhere).


The bases between Cold Bay and Attu Island have been taken by the Japanese in the first days of war. Some of the units, accordingly to SigInt and common sense, have been pulled out.

My vision is to crawl forward from the said bases WEST of Kodiak for the reasons you outlined. This area is really just a side show to draw IJ troops into their northern flank. I think the main asset I have in the sector is the presence of such a high amount of bases: I can get in an undefended dot and develop it pretty quickly, "swarming" -if you get what I mean- Japanese defensive positions.

quote:

- CENPAC

Objective(s): holding the Line Islands and Johnston Island. Retaking Midway. Move against Canton Island or, if possible, Gilberts directly.
Rationale: Midway covers the southern flank of my operations in the Aleutinians and it's a pain in the @ss for my entire northern CENPAC area. Gilberts/Phoenix Islands/Ellice Islands make an eventual defense of Figi/Noumea very difficult.This should create the need for the Japanese player to possibly abandon Figi/Noumea and especially strongly defend Rabaul/Salomons/Marshalls. It also threatens to cutoff any eventual Australian adventure.
Forces: this will fall on the USMC due to the amount of amph landings needed.
Carrier support: heavy

Forget Midway for the moment, it's a nuisance - but that's all. For peace of mind send a AV and some floatplanes to Kure Island to keep an eye on that sector. You can take this back and your leisure when you've CVE's aplenty.

Instead, you should be focusing on Canton Island. It's the best port and airbase in the region by a few hundred miles. Your strategy here should be to leverage Canton Island to develop into an advance into the lower Gilberts. The islands are all fairly small, but even a 0(2) airbase can be dug up to level 5 by Allied engineers.

The main prize is Tabiteuea, but the smaller islands will give you a respectable toehold here. Essentially, it's salami tactics with these small islands, working your way up to Makin. Take the base by paradrop, land some engineers, build an airbase, fly in fighters, land more engineers and supply, fly in some bombers, proceed to the next base.

You'll either work your way up to Makin in short order, or the IJ will commit to garrisoning small islands with limited value to them at a point where they can be isolated and cut off.

As the Allies, I really like fighting here for the following reasons:
- close to a major port and shipyard (Pearl), while the IJN has to rotate back to the Home Islands.
- undeveloped nature of the islands means the IJ has to invest supply and engineers to keep up with Allied development. The Allies can outdig and outspend (in terms of supplies) the IJ.
- lack of large level airbases means the intensity of air combat is always going to be moderate at best (and with the small island sizes forces the IJ to make a choice between garrison units or aviation support).
- few bases in the Marshalls large enough for the IJ to develop to hold large numbers of combat aircraft, while plenty of islands in the Gilberts that the Allies can build to level 5.

You are completely right about Midway, but it's a relatively easy operation to carry out quickly.

Canton Island. I like the move in CENPAC towards Gilberts (namely, Tabiteuea) precisely for the reasons you outline so clearly. I cannot credibly move on Canton Island now. I need to set up something more structured.

Your idea of airdrop => ENG => etcetc is precisely my SOP and that's why I prefer to move in areas plenty of dots. The Japanese can smash and put high pressure on one. On two. But they cannot smash everything for ever unless they decide to go mad and it's ok at that point.


I plan the move on Canton Island as per your suggestion when the amph bonus expires. Before that date, I don't feel safe to do so (don't forget I take for granted KB lurking in New Caledonia area).


Honestly, there is also the "Suva situation"... If I hold Suva, I rather go Wallis Island => Ellice Islands and isolate Canton to: A) spare myself an atoll amph landing and B) threat Santa Cruz Islands.

What do you think about this? My perspective is that it's better than moving directly on Canton Island, since I nullify its usefulness and I threat multiple lines (Gilbert to the north and Santa Cruz Islands to the east). Basically, I can then land in Canton Island when it's strategically isolated without major issues.

quote:

- SOPAC

Objective(s): variable, ideally keeping Suva+Australia+PM+NZ. More realistically, I need to be prepared to be enclosed in two long sieges in Sydney and Melbourne in case IJA goes wild. From my direct experience, it requires months to reduce a 2,000AV fortress Sidney/Melbourne. And, more importantly, it blocks a dozen IJA divisions and all BBs/CAs for the time being.
Rationale: supporting CENPAC line of advance creating both threats to the western japanese flank and obliging the Japanese to further spread his forces
Forces: Australians and 3xUSArmy divisions (24th+25th+Americal)
Carrier support: feeble
Bonus: creating a threat on the Perth-Java axis

Seems sensible here.

quote:

- DEI

Objective(s): hold as long as possible
Rationale: slowing down IJA and requiring KB intervention in the sector in order to gain time for my forces to be deployed around the map
Forces: what's initially there plus USN CVs and CAs
Carrier support: heavy

Honestly, not convinced the USN CV's will fare well here. My recommendation is for raids on the Kuriles or Honshu, areas you can be confident where the KB won't be (as the IJ may decide to send KB to the DEI as a matter of course).


KB might come to DEI but I should be able to detect it on time and pull out, redeploying somewhere else (either remain in the Indian Ocean or going around SOPAC). Positioning of USN CVs in the DEI is precisely done to pressure the Japanese player to send KB there, reducing his push in the Pacific or leaving it without KB cover.

The basic assumption here is to be 100% able to detect any KB move into the DEI (which I'm relatively confident of being able to do).

quote:

- CBI

Objective(s): counterattack and allow supplies to flow into China
Rationale: keeping China alive
Forces: a multi-national force with all the available reinforcements present around the map. Roughly, USMC + 3xUSArmy ID will be devoted to CENPAC and SOPAC, the rest goes here
Carrier support: feeble

Against an IJ player of Desert Wolf's calibre, I think it unlikely that you'll be able to hold China at all, or Burma without Rangoon to be able to funnel the supplies in fast enough.



Well, what can I do then? Leave him China?

My idea is that it's worth the try, provided I am somehow safe from a random landing behind, which might not be a good idea for the Japanese in any case. I think I need to carefully balance my positioning, but it's feasible.

Honestly, I need much advice on how to do the trick. I see its strategic relevance and feasibility, but I am still too inexperienced with the allied early war ins-and-outs to create a proper plan. So far, my planning is limited to bring as much matériel as I can into the area and develop all the bases between Calcutta and Ledo.

quote:

My vision is to crawl forward from the said bases WEST of Kodiak for the reasons you outlined. This area is really just a side show to draw IJ troops into their northern flank. I think the main asset I have in the sector is the presence of such a high amount of bases: I can get in an undefended dot and develop it pretty quickly, "swarming" -if you get what I mean- Japanese defensive positions.

quote:

Honestly, there is also the "Suva situation"... If I hold Suva, I rather go Wallis Island => Ellice Islands and isolate Canton to: A) spare myself an atoll amph landing and B) threat Santa Cruz Islands.

What do you think about this? My perspective is that it's better than moving directly on Canton Island, since I nullify its usefulness and I threat multiple lines (Gilbert to the north and Santa Cruz Islands to the east). Basically, I can then land in Canton Island when it's strategically isolated without major issues.

quote:

Honestly, I need much advice on how to do the trick.

quote:


Re China, which few Allied players handle well (although Obvert is currently showing how China can be handled) and then blame the game rather than looking at their own play.

1. The commonly deployed MLR concept is a certain recipe for failure. It spreads out Chinese units to every neighbouring hex which is the complete opposite to what Japan does. Every decent Japanese player develops a schwerpunkt which concentrates his forces against dispersed Chinese forces. Most hexes in the MLR have only Chinese units, noticeable being the absence of any Japanese units.

2. Outflanking. Another commonly misplaced Allied concern. The real world problems of outflanking just do not exist in this abstracted game. Supply always gets through to outflanked units. Only completely surrounded units are cut off from supply.

3. IRL units totally out of supply are totally useless. This is not the case in this abstracted game. Out of supply units, which are not in close contact with the enemy, are almost as good as units with full supply in accomplishing many tasks in this game. The need for water daily just does not exist in the game.

4. Unlike every other theatre and nationality , totally destroyed Chinese divisions respawn. Combined with the 12:6 VP ratio, provided a real strategic/operational benefit is gained, no Allied player should be concerned about having Chinese troops cut off and destroyed.

5. In China, the Allied player needs to both concentrate and disperse his units. All divisions must be concentrated with their Group Army HQ = corps. Mass is required to force the enemy to deploy sizeable forces to achieve success in battle. In turn the consolidated corps must be dispersed to

(a) threaten Japanese LOC
(b) overwatch enemy cities to force enemy garrisoning of their own cities to protect industry
(c) force the enemy "off road" which slows down their manoeuvre speed

6. Ultimately China is all about time. Japanese assets deployed to China are not available for use elsewhere. This provides Allied opportunities elsewhere. The opportunity cost for Japan can be huge.

7. A passive defence of China will not succeed. What is required is an active defence, based not on seeking combat but by manoeuvre which threatens enemy positions which have been weakened by the desire to create an overwhelming schwerpunkt. The firepower of the Japanese puppet forces is weak. those units are even more fragile than most Chinese divisions.

Bearing in mind the above, these are starting points for blocking and manoeuvring forces.

(A) Immediately evacuate (includes air force) everything north of Lanchow except for minimal garrison forces at Urumchi/Hami/Kinchuan. The latter two are blocking positions and will survive on Urumchi generated supplies.

(B) Immediately withdraw from Yenan except for the required garrison. If the garrison is provided by the Base Force, you will be able to fly recon missions from Yenan. Otherwise that city is simply a death trap which need not even be captured by Japan.

(C) To slow down any Japanese move on the northern oilfields, the 3 key blocking positions are:

93,34
92,34 (Paotow)
92,38

All three hexes are mountain. The first two protect the eastern approach to Lanchow and the southern approach to Hami. The last cuts the railway and overwatches the enemy bases of Taiyuan/Chengting/Tatung, the latter being an important resources generator.

(D) The blocking positions on the eastern approach to Sian are:

90,40
90,41
88,41
87,41
88,42 (Tsiatso)

These positions must not be simply given away as almost every Allied player does when they immediately start an unforced retreat back towards Sian. These positions disrupt the enemy LOC and therefore weakens any Sian schwerpunkt which bypasses them. Do not overlook the auto generated supply at Tsiatso.

The absolute key Sian blocking position is 88,42. It is the junction of the eastern approach from Loyang and the southern approach from Nanyang. It is the closest position to the Allied supply depot at Sian and conversely the furthest away from the enemy supply depots. It does not make sense, as Allied players reqularly do, to defend in multiple wooded + rough hexes to cover both potential enemy axes of advance and close to the enemy supply depots.

Sian itself needs to retain its good garrison to meet any river crossings from the east. If the enemy bypasses all the blocking positions and elects to undertake the river crossing, not only will it be weakened from it's less than optimal LOC but it becomes very vulnerable to a single LCU being detached from the blocking position at 88,42 to come in from behind and trap the enemy.

(E) Consolidate the Lusu corps around and continue to threaten Kweiteh. Another valuable auto generated Chinese supply source which happens to lay right in the middle of a key enemy railway. Doing so also helps the defenders of Loyang and Chengchow.

(F) The valuable industrial region of Changsha/Siangton/Shaoyong/Hengyang/Changteh is defended by garrisons in the cities themselves, not units outside the cities. In particular, Changsha is not to be abandoned under any circumstances. The units which start outside of Changsha are to immediately be brought back into Changsha to build forts. The auto generated supply combined with the terrain and one of the most powerful at start Chinese consolidated corps means Japan can be bled white here. Destroyed Chinese units at Changsha will get to Chungking before their exhausted opponents do. Plus by maximising the engineers, a wrecked industrial price might be all that the enemy gains ultimately.

(G) For the southern region, the key blocking positions are Pingsiang, Pucheng and 87,56. All lie on the best enemy LOC. If captured by the enemy aim to get new units to recapture them as it is unlikely the enemy will stop to safeguard these conquests.

(H) Two key ports to be retained are Kwangchown and Wenchow. Consolidate forces in their vicinity. These ports can be resupplied by sub (Wenchow is itself a significant supply centre) and provide excellent "naval search eyes" on enemy convoys to assist the Dutch and S class subs.

(I) The blocking positions for Chungking are:

71,48 (also key for Kunming)

81,40 (most of the eastern approach is covered by holding Sian)

76,46
75,46
77,47
75,48
74,48

these cover the southern approach.


By consolidating corps and positioning them in blocking positions it means that it is possible to detach units to close the door after being bypassed. Plus by not maintaining a linear MLR, mobile consolidated corps to threaten weakly garrisoned enemy rear bases can be created.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

To give you an idea, mind_messing, of my intention to skip any operation in Canton Island if Suva is still in my hands:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

To give you an idea, mind_messing, of my intention to skip any operation in Canton Island if Suva is still in my hands:

As with post 137, not worth going around.

The Ellice Islands don't give you much beyond a nice floatplane base. Baker island at least is a level 1 airbase, but that's all.

Canton gives you a potential level 5 port and a level 2 airbase off the bat. That means you can get CL/CA task forces under a decent CAP without massive effort and can shovel supply, fuel and tenders into the base from Pearl. If the IJ want to oppose you, they're either working off of tenders or going back to the upper Marshalls (and even then the tenders will need to go back there to reload anyhow.)

At this point in the war, with bases so under-developed, it's a naval war. If you're based as far back as Fiji and the Line Islands then the tempo of your operations is slowed by the couple days transit times. Having Canton in your back pocket means you can be running missions into the Gilberts and be rearmed and refuelled at a much faster pace (and much faster than any IJ units sent to oppose!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

It's hard to figure out what your status is because you haven't said the game date with each post. In general, it sounds like you are still early in 1942 and expecting to make significant offensives or set up solid barriers to the Japanese. That will not happen - the Allies are still trying to concentrate from their dispersed game start and they need to recruit and train new troops. Even the veteran reinforcements arrive far away and need to be brought to the action.

In the first six months of 1942 the Allies are not going to stop a major IJ effort in Burma, nor create a solid roadblock in China if the IJA tanks show up. I think harassing raids are possible on land but would not expect to do much beyond that yet. You should expect to work on the foundations of your comeback well beyond the lines and forget about throwing weak units at the Japanese spearheads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Allies need to focus heavily on pilot training for the first six months as they don't have the airframes to throw away that Japan does. I focus on setting up my logistics between USA and Australia. Staying and fighting in Burma makes it easy for Japan to land at Chittagong and then drive to Ledo to cut them off and force a retreat into supply starved China. Patience my young Jedi!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for explaining your thoughts and near-term plans. Your previous posts made it sound like you were despairing of the Allied problems and without a general plan other than trying to hit in a weak spot - of which there will be few at this stage.

RE: India, the only two key bases you must keep are Karachi and Bombay - all the others can be ceded in a "space-for-time" campaign. Karachi and Bombay allow you to bring in reinforcements from Aden, fuel from Abadan and supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.

Australia's key bases are Sydney and Melbourne and a corridor between them to help supply Melbourne. All else can be ceded in a space-for-time campaign. Once US troops and aircraft become available in numbers the Japanese will suddenly find themselves hitting a brick wall with threats all around their expanded perimeter, and you will have the pleasure of picking where to strike suddenly.

Good Luck, and stay positive during this time of hardship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

…supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.