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RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01

 
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RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/2/2021 11:02:33 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		Maybe I am unlucky but when I've tried to use German bombers besides T1 either A) They fly in loads with only a handful of escorts and get decimated or B) Fly in loads, destroy nothing, damage no more than fingers of a hand, disrupt something.

Ground Attack-Unit is a function I'd gladly erase from the game tbh. There is ground support to represent bombing of units before they get attacked, to soften the target up.
Without the possibilty to spam it as it was before (Now at least it converts in Interdiction, good grace...).

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 31
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/2/2021 11:27:17 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

Maybe I am unlucky but when I've tried to use German bombers besides T1 either A) They fly in loads with only a handful of escorts and get decimated or B) Fly in loads, destroy nothing, damage no more than fingers of a hand, disrupt something.


You have to manually set the requested aircraft, and fly at 22,000 feet or above. If you use auto settings, you're going to have a bad time. If you fly low, you'll get shredded by 37mm flak, and your bombers won't get anything done.

quote:

Ground Attack-Unit is a function I'd gladly erase from the game tbh. Without the possibilty to spam it as it was before (Now at least it converts in Interdiction, good grace...).


Bad take imo. Without GA-unit, you'll never be able to achieve the amount of sorties that were historically flown. Also, the Soviets will still spam it as before, it's just half as effective. It doesn't matter if they miss because the Soviets have infinite supply. It drastically changes the calculation of German bombing runs though since freight is so precious.

Flak is so strong that attaching a motorized army flak battalion to my panzers pretty much solves all my ground attack problems against level bombers, and significantly reduces the impact of IL-2's.

quote:

There is ground support to represent bombing of units before they get attacked, to soften the target up.


That's not what ground support is supposed to represent - it's just how the designers decided to model it. I would prefer it if they took a second (long) look at their model. For one, the sorties should happen after the initial bombardment round.


< Message edited by jubjub -- 12/2/2021 11:48:07 PM >

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 32
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 1:48:30 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		We definitely have a different perspective on what should be 'ground support' then.

Given I'd have kept the air war in the style of WITE, bundled in general with the ground movement, and with 'per week' mission and not some subsystem that goes in days while ground operations have a turn long stuff.

Nonetheless - maybe I am the one wrong but the Stukas are not doing 'much' either. Now much can be subjective, but the question is 'do the Luftwaffe bombers usage justify the freight they steal to the ground army?'






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Post #: 33
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 1:49:46 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
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Status: offline 		Other Stuka situation which is similar to above, to show a pattern.




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Post #: 34
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 2:05:17 PM   
jubjub

 

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Status: offline 		You're showing results from deliberate attacks, where GS is outshined by ground elements. IMO, they should fly at least two full sorties per deliberate attack and continue strafing throughout the combat.

The most effective use of GS is during hasty attacks, where they can double the amount of destroyed/disrupted from ground combat. Also, try not to use the drop tanks on stukas unless there's no way to get them in range. Their 500kg + 4x 50kg bombs is a much better payload.


< Message edited by jubjub -- 12/3/2021 2:07:12 PM >

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 35
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 2:09:28 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		In general 'hasty attacks' unless made with overwhelming odds punish the Germans a lot. Despite other threats that I am confident show deliberate attacks in general that consume time and effort. My CV should be at least 4:1 on the map or I should have other solid basis to go 'hasty'.
But that's just how I play maybe, past the first turns the Soviets are nifty and in general resilient to hasty attacks unless they sit in open clear terrain or so.

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 36
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 2:13:35 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

We definitely have a different perspective on what should be 'ground support' then.


Yeah, ground support implies some sort of coordination and/or continued presence over the battlefield. Their formula is big dogfight -> drop payload -> go home. It seems over simplistic and not very realistic.

The problem is especially apparent when looking at the HS 127B, who's primary armament is the 30mm cannon. In their model, the HS 127B fires its cannon once and its machineguns once and then flies on home. It's totally useless in their model.


< Message edited by jubjub -- 12/3/2021 2:22:46 PM >

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RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 2:17:21 PM   
jubjub

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

In general 'hasty attacks' unless made with overwhelming odds punish the Germans a lot. Despite other threats that I am confident show deliberate attacks in general that consume time and effort. My CV should be at least 4:1 on the map or I should have other solid basis to go 'hasty'.
But that's just how I play maybe, past the first turns the Soviets are nifty and in general resilient to hasty attacks unless they sit in open clear terrain or so.


They're excellent against units that have already retreated. Rifle divisions in lvl 1 fort in clear terrain also can't really stand up to two pz divisions in a hasty attack. The Stukas help these kind of attacks a lot. They also cause routs to be much worse.


< Message edited by jubjub -- 12/3/2021 2:18:12 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/3/2021 2:44:32 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Well - IF that is how the model works in general needs to be reworked. Supposedly ground support should be 'continuous' and proportionate to Hasty or Deliberate attack (the latter takes more MPs so more time?). But I cannot know how to quantify it there. As per how many sorties would it have to be to be 'right'? And how to position these sorties in the 'rounds'? Ultimately whilst forces wrestle over a hex - the combat model resolves to a 2D linear A to B range meter that determines which and what elements are entitled to fire.

I feel anyhow that aspect is conditional to have the fighter escorts sorted out, and LW has the issue anyhow to provide fighter cover in '41 so the Soviets would be the ones dominating the air as they do presently (due to LW fighters absence in general).

And yes on the hasty on single infantry divisions or stuff that retreated - 100% in agreement with that.

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 39
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/8/2021 10:06:54 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Status: offline 		Any update on possible release date on the expected air changes up and coming?

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RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/8/2021 10:16:24 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		There are no other air changes planned until Pavel finishes his intensive work on the editor. Once he finishes that, he'll be available to start looking at issues in the Air phase, and looking at air items in the air phase that may not be meshing ideally with the air phase (like AS). Tomorrow the Steam release will have a 1.02.11 official version with a few more bug fixes and an artillery tweak, and I assume Matrix will be making that the official version as well. Is there something you are especially interested in getting looked at that hasn't been addressed by all the changes through 1.02.08?

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 41
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/8/2021 10:21:51 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Which other artillery changes?

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Post #: 42
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/8/2021 11:27:42 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		New Features and Rule Changes
• Reduced the chance of indirect fire disruption hits.
Bug Fixes and AI Improvements
• Game crashes during ground combat. Fixed.
• AI – AI warps units into an isolated pocket. Fixed.


We dialed back some of the increased disruption caused by indirect fire.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 43
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/9/2021 1:27:32 AM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

New Features and Rule Changes
• Reduced the chance of indirect fire disruption hits.
Bug Fixes and AI Improvements
• Game crashes during ground combat. Fixed.
• AI – AI warps units into an isolated pocket. Fixed.


We dialed back some of the increased disruption caused by indirect fire.


That sounds very good. Thank you for the continued work to improve the game. From my perspective, things seem to in general be getting better with every patch. I expect a bit less disruption and a bit more combat will end up leading to fairly historical losses for both sides. The various combat changes seem to have done a good job of raising Soviet losses up towards historical levels, but it seemed to me like German losses may have been running generally less than historical. With a bit less disruption and consequently more elements engaging in combat, I would guess Soviets will still take the high casualties they have been taking in the beta patch, but German casualties will be slightly higher in 1941 also (500k German losses by September '41 is what I have heard before for historical #s).

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 44
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/9/2021 11:59:34 PM   
Hardradi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There are no other air changes planned until Pavel finishes his intensive work on the editor. Once he finishes that, he'll be available to start looking at issues in the Air phase, and looking at air items in the air phase that may not be meshing ideally with the air phase (like AS). Tomorrow the Steam release will have a 1.02.11 official version with a few more bug fixes and an artillery tweak, and I assume Matrix will be making that the official version as well. Is there something you are especially interested in getting looked at that hasn't been addressed by all the changes through 1.02.08?


When he gets a chance to look at the air side, will there be any opportunity to look at some quality of life improvements to the air phase and its related matters?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 45
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/10/2021 6:06:48 AM   
Hardradi


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Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline 		Also are Air battle losses supposed to add up to the losses shown on the air losses screen?

For example, I look back on my opponents Turn 4 battles and see that I have lost 10 Bf 109s in battles. Then i looks at the air losses screen "since last turn" and I see I have only lost 5. I check some more numbers. I downed 33 Mig 3s in battles during my opponents turn but when i look at the air losses "since last turn" I see I only took down 11.

This brings back a distant misty memory of something similar in WitE1.

(in reply to Hardradi)
Post #: 46
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/10/2021 3:48:10 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I'm not exactly sure what you are comparing, but I think the total losses are the more accurate number. It seems to me that sometimes current turn may miss something, although not by as much as you seem to be indicating. If you are in air planning, then since last turn does not include the losses in your last air execution phase, but should include those lost in your opponent's phase. You say you downed 33 enemy in your opponent's turn. What phases were these in? Do the phase numbers add up to that total? What are you looking at that shows 33 lost? I have a feeling the way Air Superiority works that some numbers may get out of whack when involving AS losses, but that's more of a hunch as I don't have any hard case to point to. If you have saves and can point out the discrepancies, please post a tech support thread and I will take a look.

as for quality of life improvements, once he's focused on the air game, that would be a good time for him to make some. When we reach that point I'll try to remember to ask for some feedback at that time that he can look at.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Hardradi)
Post #: 47
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/10/2021 5:57:41 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There are no other air changes planned until Pavel finishes his intensive work on the editor. Once he finishes that, he'll be available to start looking at issues in the Air phase, and looking at air items in the air phase that may not be meshing ideally with the air phase (like AS). Tomorrow the Steam release will have a 1.02.11 official version with a few more bug fixes and an artillery tweak, and I assume Matrix will be making that the official version as well. Is there something you are especially interested in getting looked at that hasn't been addressed by all the changes through 1.02.08?


Specifically the issues in the Air Phase and meshing between the two programmers per the conversations about AS over a month ago in the threads.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 48
RE: The status of the air game as of 1.02.01 - 12/10/2021 6:21:37 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Yes, that's basically the main thing for Pavel to look into when he gets back to it.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 49
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