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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

 
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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 12:27:34 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Moscow Sector

Here I sinned of gluttony ... there was that Rifle Corps without fortifications ... and I jumped on it. Including the 3 divisions at the 'wrong' end of the canalway.
A victorious outcome - that poor Rifle Corps, supposedly exausted from previous combat got smashed!

Another assault was made, as MSAG weakened another hex to do this attack - and here he got away pretty much scott-free; I believe the fortifications do a lot of difference there in containing the losses. Which is a good notion.
In fact that attack is hardly a gain for me - losses were pratically traded 1:1!





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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 12:35:23 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - TOE Digression

I just noticed this as I was checking on the Infantry TOEs.

I thought it was later that the Germans were going down to an almost binary divisional system.
4500 saved manpower per each division seems exceptional - I am not sure how that will bode with the 'fighting power' / staying power of the Infantry Divisions.

Losing infantry, gaining AT capability and some AA.

Considering the pending changes to the Air Support, the extra flak may come in well handy, exactly as all the Flak I've presently in the Reserve.

On another note though - there is something that bugs me here. Since the manpower returned to the pool has no memory, any 'veteran division' pratically will ditch an amount of personnel that has experience and convert it into ... Average National Morale 65 Manpower in the pool.

That is not a little change and this is a circumstance where I feel it would do good to be able to choose if to just add AA and Panzershreks or so to a division or 'shrink' it. (But I do not believe there is a possibility to 'fork' a TOE upgrade path with a player selection / decision there)

Or to retain some divisions with extra punch for localized offensives.






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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/6/2022 12:41:49 AM >

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Post #: 542
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 12:59:52 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Voronhez musings...

Here I am unsure of what to do, except to whack that Cavalry Corp. That is my only certainness.
I've other offensive options but the Soviets are replenishing their troops there. On the other hand to remain passive ... does not seem either smart...

Then I've also to decide if to keep the broken line wings or not.
With utmost chances 3 divisions of the 1st Armycorp will make a return to help this sector BUT it will take turns.

Let's look around elsewhere first ... and get back here. At times it works!




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 1:02:07 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Rhyazan

Not the finest of the initiatives in my musings ... that single Airborne Division seemed tempting to me.
But they have held their grounds nicely and my somehow once upon a time veteran German division now have morale almost normalized.

The Soviets just are not able to exploit this mistake I did here - I feel at least. (But I feel I'll get punished at Moscow for my gluttony).




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 1:15:54 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Morale of Units, again!

Just to underline the point further, here a Hungarian division that has 3 victories and 0 defeat, and has a 42 morale value, vs 50 of National Morale.

Even if at a previous stage Hungary Morale was lower (45), 42 is inferior to 45.

So brutal it can be to fail this or that test that are not specified - just labelled as fatigue tests or so on the manual.




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/6/2022 1:17:28 AM >

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Post #: 545
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 1:37:04 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Voronhez sector attacks

It was decided not to let the panzers idle and I used them again.

The SS corp and the finest Panzerkorp hammer some Infantry Corps. The Guard Corp alone fights well enough and get away decently from the combat, but the two mundane rifle corps suffer intense losses.

The Cavalry corp is too pounded. But something miracolous happen - for when they retreat in the wrong position and 2 more panzerdivisions pounce on it ... it slips away pratically avoiding the usual disaster that units that retreated get into.
Given these 2 panzer divisions were quite weary and fatigued and with an amount of elements damaged and I truly did not planned that last attack BUT -- the cavalry retreated on a hex all alone.

Funny here the wheel of fate wanted that the single, last AT Gun operational of the Cavalry Corp knocked out 6 different AFVs of the Germans out of the 8 destroyed!




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 1:43:24 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - That AT gun!

Showing the combat, as I find it very funny (truly I am not complaining for 1 AT gun!).

Someones in for whichever type of medal is given to panzer-busters in the Red Army!
I assume the 6 destroyed are AFV at least, considering the role of the AT!




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Post #: 547
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 2:12:10 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - Air Supply

Got intercepted 50% of the times at 5 hexes from enemy lines; I am unsure if that's a case of air superiority of the enemy here ...

It will be a case of trial and error to learn how far deep into my own lines I can safely air transport!




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Post #: 548
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 2:37:56 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T104 - More Digression...

I feel here a 'Reassign to' mass selection is needed. OR if anyone knows how I can assign many SUs to the OKH at once, please inform me.

It's very laborious to handpick all the SUs that are low on TOE and bring to them 1 by 1 to the OKH. It would be a massive quality of life improvement.

Also a 'negation' filter can come handy. For instance to exclude from the selection all that is already in the OKH.

Again if it is there - please do enlighten me!




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Post #: 549
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/6/2022 10:14:57 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		ok lets have one more go at the endless misinformation/misunderstanding in this AAR. I realise its far easier to decide the game is utterly pro-Soviet than to investigate our own game play choices

So to start, this only happens when you mismanage both your logistics and over-use your formations, this from another AAR is very relevant:

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T103 - Scavenging Reserves

I am kind of worried as in the Voronhez sector certainly successes were achieved, but the Panzerwaffe there rested a full turn and then triggered in action.
Half of the Panzer Divisions are at 'joke' level with lesser than 6 CV now. Some of them were well spottable.

While the Soviet Horde has stellar numbers.

...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I will be astonished if you can keep up the offensive down there! Logistics for me were a nightmare.


Without taking the Ordzhonikidze railyard late in 42 and taking time to repair and create a super-depot here, none of my units would have been able to dig in properly let alone receive full replacements and supplies. It took months especially all the while having to fight to avoid a breakthrough. It will be a stretch still I'm sure when ammo need to flow down mostly a sole double-track (and then not even fully all the way to the end). Airlift from around Rostov helps a little but barely at the range they need to operate to actually bring in extra rather than just moving supplies from further east of Rostov that doesn't really add anything if they were based closer. There are also supplies coming by sea to feed the mixed Romanian/German force at Maikop to at least add some extra, but yes logistics I fully expect to be a limiting factor that will only get worse.



So lets move onto this, your unit morale goes to NM due to your game play choices

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T104 - Morale of Units, again!

Just to underline the point further, here a Hungarian division that has 3 victories and 0 defeat, and has a 42 morale value, vs 50 of National Morale.

Even if at a previous stage Hungary Morale was lower (45), 42 is inferior to 45.

So brutal it can be to fail this or that test that are not specified - just labelled as fatigue tests or so on the manual.





So here are my Hungarian units (divisions, not those in Hungary) and they are clustered around 50 - they are on the front lines and actually defending important sectors and this for T119 - so I have had the lower NM for longer than in your game



quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

...
Also a 'negation' filter can come handy. For instance to exclude from the selection all that is already in the OKH.

...


yes set up a filter using 'unit name'

The plea here is, you are making choices (good or bad - doesn't matter), most of what you complain about is the consequences of those choices, its not game bias.


_____________________________


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Post #: 550
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/7/2022 2:15:16 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Loki: As said I can agree to disagree, you think the system works well. I think the system for Morale Drops and how Freight moves around is bogus - or better, the 'logic' applied to where freight goes. I stand by my case, having brought a crystal clear example of Axis tenuous logistics, that did not had some massive drop of troops quality: El Alamein.
For the Filter I know of the 'name' function, what I mean is that I want let's ... that that has NOT 'Infantry' in the name.

T 105 - North

Quiet sector for the Soviets this turn.

I can even spy some potential opportunity targets to be pounced on. (IN general anything with low numbers!)

I sought to include logists here as the net here is impressive at least for my usual standards.

You can see a backbone line of 4 Priority at the southern edge; these were used for airdrops pick-ups, and mostly as rearline fallback freight for that riverline about Borovichi.
In simpler term a Priority 4 depot once filled does not receive freight anymore or simply a minimum amount.

The main frontline is all horse-supplied pratically without problems - especially so after 5 divisions were stripped off the sector (You can still see the HQ to the left, of the 1st Corp)

Only the recently conquered sector has long red beams, because railyards here still need repairing and ultimately it wil lrely on a single track but it should suffice for a static front. Heck - everything has the bright green sticker or almost; and that's Supply Label.

I assume the fact it is closer to Berlin (than Rostov for instance) and there are Baltic Ports (Leningrad) to get freight in ... makes this whole sector better supplied?

Here it's like Freight Heaven.

I've to run air recon still. A front shortening may be evaluated by advancing and leaning north to the Rybinsk Reservoir. It would free up even more troops from my end - and certainly it will IF the Soviets fall back there to Cherepovets to form their new defensive line.






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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/7/2022 2:16:27 PM >

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Post #: 551
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/7/2022 2:28:25 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T105 - Finland Airforce ?

Finns may have a problem - their airforce is non existant I just realized.

Their units here are pratically barebone by now, except the few that receive Bf109s.

The Finns just do not have the production to withstand the perpetual air war that the TB imposes.

Realized this, I also know I've absolutely no way to affect it and anyhow the German presence here suffices to keep the % at 110% presently.




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Post #: 552
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/7/2022 2:42:01 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T105 - Caucasus

The 'shell' front of the Axis Minors here for now helds (though not far north the Tridentina got hammered by a Soviet Rifle Corps)

The Romanian cavalries hold the riverline, and down on the coast a better division appears, to hold the hills on the coast.
Should the Romanians attack this one as well? Considerations to have...

Maikop is about to be liberated by the Soviets, but with the railroad severed, alas the oil here cannot be brought away via tankers or so...






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Post #: 553
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/7/2022 2:46:14 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T105 - Rostov Sector

Here the quality Alpini division suffers a defeat but retreats in decent order.
Notice that it has a German battallion attached, using the same concept that Rommel applied, to mix German troops to Italians! (and hopefully Alpini divisions will get better after it was forwarded evidence they were larger too)

In the north the Soviets obliterate a Romanian division that gets kicked in the teeth twice in a row, and some other troops including a Gebirgjaeger Division (Mountain division for Germany).

This is where the major Soviet action took place this turn.




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Post #: 554
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/7/2022 2:52:40 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T105 - Voronhez sector

Here a single division is mauled - relatively so.
It was already a battered one that was left to soak up an attack. I feel it has been used as 'experience pungiball' for many Soviet units!

Otherwise the Soviets looms at the horizon - I expected hell here, especially as the own German numbers are shoddy for the most execept the central Panzer / SS units...
Supply here is a nightmare somehow.
Plenty of yellow and red stickers / labels here.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 2:17:05 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		* Game Concluded *

After the last turn I and MSAG had an exchange of mails.

There is the agreement the Soviets would not reach the HWM level needed at the end of '44.

I've asked MSAG if he wants to start a new game with me, I think it's fair to give him priority - otherwise I will look for another game. Not sure if I will AAR it, and not sure if I'll be German or Soviet either (but may try Axis again since I've a Soviet game ongoing).

I've asked MSAG to write his own final comments here.

I've been quite eloquent with my own opinions through the AAR but I will add some:

I think the Hungarian front south of Voronhez was to collapse and rather fast. Even if Germans got scrambled there the CVs of German units dropped fast and hard.
Logistics are still a nightmare for me and to see how the NM dropped for countless of divisions and the scripted decay is one of the major off putting details to play further Axis. Besides the issue Beethoven and John are covering in their own AARs.

The Caucasus would have fell quickly I think - if that was the selected pressure point of the Soviet offensive. I confirm my opinion of the Axis minors being far too weak and needing extra NM.

Things that favored me? Well - the Arty Patch that's for sure.
We both took good favor out of the non interceptable air supply.
To me it helped A LOT to survive the Soviet Winter and in general with logistics. The Soviets supplied Voronhez first for 6 turns and then Leningrad for way more!

What I liked the most it was the fast pacing of the game, in general a turn a day. May too fast paced but I think we found each other in similar league here.
Players that want to play a game and not descend too much into its viscera.
At times I study things - but it's not a perpetual check I do each and every turn!

I've still the turn in my hand - if anyone requests a screenshot of something I will post it.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 556
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 4:17:27 AM   
MSAG


Posts: 50
Joined: 10/7/2021
Status: offline 		After a couple of email exchanges with Albert we have decided to conclude the game.

It ends with MAJOR AXIS VICTORY. It has to be clearly stated. Congratulations to my Opponent for it is well deserved.

I have learned a lot during the game.
My major takeaway is that while I made a lot of "unenforced errors" during the game & they costed me a lot. The biggest ones of them are in my opinion of the "not so visible" kind.
- I failed to recognize the chain of manpower/HW bottlenecks and manage them properly (Soviet army is constantly either having abundance of or lacking something, with certain things falling into both categories). It resulted in massive inefficiencies.
- I failed in supplying the troops properly. After reasonably decent job in 1941 I mismanaged it in 1942. My most humiliating defeats of the game (losing Leningrad and almost losing Moscow in 1942) occurred during the period when I overbuilt the new Tank/Mech formations. My undersupplied army failed to perform to expectations.

Also, I do NOT believe that the game has pro Soviet bias. We have reached June 43 and still the Soviet army was markedly inferior to German units. Strength wise, well, Soviet manpower replacements slow down significantly in 1943 and I was struggling with keeping on map strength above 5M.

Overall, I am very happy with the game experience.

Thank you AlbertN!

< Message edited by MSAG -- 2/8/2022 7:09:40 AM >

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Post #: 557
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 5:06:07 AM   
Lovenought

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 8/21/2017
Status: offline 		Peace in our time!

So what were the final casualties and map condition? It'd be interesting to know how it compares to reality.

How far into Eastern Europe would the Soviets have had to advance in order to pass the December '44 victory check? I assume MSAG sat down and calculated the different VP clusters he would have to capture, and by when. It'd be interesting to see what those potential strategies were, and why they were all unrealistic.

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Post #: 558
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 9:12:20 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		MSAG was not lucky to play as a Soviets during arty patches, and if you make 1 turn per day, then it is huge amount of turns under that patches.

AlbertN showed really useful examples what is not working as it should, for the Axis. I hope developers will take a look into it.

Thanks for the game AlbertN and MSAG!

(in reply to Lovenought)
Post #: 559
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 10:03:34 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Great game guys and good to see how things are panning out mid war.
I would concur with your conclusion, Soviets don't have enough manpower to make a sufficient recovery for victory. I think this could be the key to the late war game, if Axis can strangle Soviet manpower then they can survive. If not then the Soviets can build up enough momentum for a rapid advance - well that is how it looks to me but have not really seen it happen in game yet.

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Post #: 560
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 11:14:20 AM   
RedJohn

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 9/20/2019
Status: offline 		I think the artillery patch played a fairly large role in crippling Soviet momentum, and is likely a large reason for the Soviets being unable to build the steamroller in late 42/43.

Good AAR.

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Post #: 561
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 12:15:24 PM   
Beethoven1

 

Posts: 754
Joined: 3/25/2021
Status: offline 		I'd be interested in seeing the graphs of total # of men and total #s of men in the field.

I do think that a lot of the Soviet problems are a result of the artillery patch. It would be interesting to see if we can see the effects of that in those graphs.

I also agree with MSAG that probably a lot of people are not aware that Soviets can have a (relative) manpower problem in 1943, I have seen that in StB also. However, in the case of this game that was probably especially problematic because of how far Axis pushed in 1941/42 with the artillery patch. Leningrad obviously fell, and the front was up right near Moscow rather than halfway back to Smolensk (as in StB), so naturally this hurts Soviet manpower yet further. And I doubt the front would have been there if not for the artillery patch.

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Post #: 562
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 12:30:40 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Lovenought:

Map Situation (Including OOBs)

The Axis line pratically descends from east of Leningrad to hug Moscow, spanning east to Rhyazan and descending down to Voronez, down to Rostov.
The Caucasus is in the process of being abandoned and the Summer '43 defensive line plan was the Don without the 'bend' pretty much there, anchoring on Rostov and Kerch and using the sea of Azov to shorten the line.

Situation of June '43




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 12:35:50 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Casualties:

I'd like to underline the air war for the first part was pratically ruled out or limited by house rules til the Ground-Attack(Unit) converts in Interdiction was applied.
Even after that it was ... barely used.

I suspect once there is effective Ground Support, the air war will take different chromes and colours!




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 2/8/2022 12:36:20 PM >

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Post #: 564
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 12:42:28 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Beethoven:

Total Men in absolute terms:

As reference from Start to April / May 42 we had 'Arty Patch'.
Then we had 'Defender Patch' across the '43.
I think early '43 we hit the more present betas that rebalanced a bit the game to the attacker not going to crash into a wall of massive HPE values.

I do agree though the 'Arty Patch' plus a honest way of playing from MSAG (as per not vacating the south) has got me in the well off position in 'number terms'.




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Post #: 565
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 12:43:56 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Manpower on the Map:




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Post #: 566
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 4:55:22 PM   
Gunnulf


Posts: 686
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline 		Ah, well done both of you. A very interesting contest, a bit sorry to see it wrap up as would be nice to see how played out into 44 with the tables slightly shifted, even if getting to a Soviet win looking unlikely. Certainly a hard fight with plenty of action and drama, especially the tantalising prospect of Moscow falling. What was the HWM in the end and what was the best guess of how far back the Soviets might have pulled things?

_____________________________

"Stay low, move fast"

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Post #: 567
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 5:13:43 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		HWM is 753.

I do not know much of the game - I expected the Soviets to repel me already from the Caucasus in winter 42-43.

I think I'd have finished '44 in Poland frankly - a worry is the TB replacement system that as soon as the Allies land in Europe pretically sucks all the replacements for Italy / West I suspect.
The shrinking divisions also in terms of ToE ought to have less staying power I suspect.

(in reply to Gunnulf)
Post #: 568
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 2/8/2022 5:25:55 PM   
Gunnulf


Posts: 686
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline 		As much as the USSR might like to mythologise about winning WW2 alone does seem nice that the game does a great job of reflecting that neither the western allies or Soviets were likely to win alone, unless they started throwing nukes around. While I have been sitting nicely repelling Soviet attempts to break through until now N.Africa surrendering and the garrison requirements for Italy have sucked in many more divisions than I would otherwise be comfortable with, and the future Italian surrender and subsequently D-Day sucking in many many more divisions will absolutely make sustaining the Eastern front untenable. Likewise without the war in the east raging hard D-Day would be nigh on impossible.

_____________________________

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