Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Tech Support >> Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 5:20:08 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
To me it would appear that hasty attacks are very much on the low end now in terms of losses and to an extent combat results.

In order to test this, I've gone back to a 4 vs 4 PBEM game's turn 2 and recreated a few battles fought there in the new patch with the same moves done and with the same units.

Here are two different results of the same battle fought in identical conditions (save for leader rolls, potentially):

Old patch:



New patch:



In both situations, this was 36th Motorized's very first combat of the game, with 66 CPP on hand, against an NKVD border guard unit.
Post #: 1
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 5:22:20 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
I can send a save from the PBEM game if needed, as Erik proposed in AlbertN's latest AAR thread.

I also have more screenshot instances of similar results with powerful formations against weak units in .02.11 to upload if needed.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 2
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 5:27:56 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
To make sure it wasn't a one-off thing, I've run the attack once more:




And here is the follow-up hasty attack:

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 3
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 5:42:45 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
To my untrained player eye not privy to the game's code, it seems that artillery has, or had, a big weight factor in the combat simulation for inflicting damage at least in hasty attacks. And with the .11 artillery changes, hasty attacks seem to produce noticeably fewer casualties.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/11/2021 5:43:23 PM >

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 4
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 5:59:22 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
Also CV value of attacker is 7 times higher than in an old one, but NKVD just retreats.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 5
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:02:35 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline
With the artillery fix, this is how it should be. Direct losses from attacks have slightly decreased. In addition, the NKVD retreated not by 1 hex, but by all 3 hexes, which means that their defensive positions were seriously disrupted. The losses of the German side are everywhere 0 people.

In fact, it just so happened from history that the organization of small groups is easier to maintain in difficult conditions than the organization of large units, which is why I disagree with the view that in one hasty attack you can completely knock out a subdivision to an unusable state. It is also known from history that in some cases, Soviet border guards could well stubbornly defend individual defense units, which made it possible to gain time.
It seems to me that in these screenshots, an order of magnitude more reasonable battles are taking place compared to what was in the early patches. I would like to see how it works in 42, 43, 44 years.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 6
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:05:02 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
Well, have a Soviet hasty attack.



The regiment is at 75/87 TOE, barely any disruption, retreated the same number of hexes. I suspect the same happened to the NKVD border unit in the screenshot above.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 7
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:17:55 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
I’ll be posting in my AAR and I did quite a number of successful HA with out any real issues. Using latest of course.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 8
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:24:29 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

With the artillery fix, this is how it should be. Direct losses from attacks have slightly decreased. In addition, the NKVD retreated not by 1 hex, but by all 3 hexes, which means that their defensive positions were seriously disrupted. The losses of the German side are everywhere 0 people.

In fact, it just so happened from history that the organization of small groups is easier to maintain in difficult conditions than the organization of large units, which is why I disagree with the view that in one hasty attack you can completely knock out a subdivision to an unusable state. It is also known from history that in some cases, Soviet border guards could well stubbornly defend individual defense units, which made it possible to gain time.
It seems to me that in these screenshots, an order of magnitude more reasonable battles are taking place compared to what was in the early patches. I would like to see how it works in 42, 43, 44 years.

Turn 2, probably full TOE and supply/ammo/fuel not sure about CPP motorized division (it means higher than average German unit morale) with 14k people attacks 1.6k Soviets in perfect conditions (clear air, ground) which leads to a loss of ~450 and probably few more disrupted/damaged elements and you call this as this is how it should be?
Really?

Probably you are a Soviet player that would like to stop Axis around Novgorod/Smolensk/Kiev/Odessa. Will it be an interesting game for you?
I can understand that you was one of the loudest in a topic "Soviets has no playability now" as it was way to strong, but calling this one an intended situation...

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 9
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:29:40 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
Regardless of who plays as which side, I believe this is something that affects both Axis and Soviet hasty attacks. That security regiment sitting in clear terrain getting attacked by a not isolated tank division should have had a lot more casualties and perhaps even rout.

The fact that it got away with a mere slap on the wrist at 75/87 TOE with 0 CV against 17000 Soviet CV is not promising for the future of hasty attacks, especially when either side will attempt to pocket units in large scale encirclements and potentially hasty attack units along the way.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/11/2021 7:31:27 PM >

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 10
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:34:13 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Regardless of who plays as which side, I believe this is something that affects both Axis and Soviet hasty attacks. That security regiment sitting in clear terrain getting attacked by a not isolated tank division should have had a lot more casualties and perhaps even rout.

The fact that it got away with a mere slap on the wrist at 75/87 TOE with 0 CV against 17000 Soviet CV is not promising for the future of hasty attacks, especially when either side will attempt to pocket units in large scale encirclements and potentially hasty attack units along the way.

Completely agree. What Axis takes has to be taken back by Soviets later in the game. So they will face the same situation.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 11
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:38:56 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline
Let's imagine that you are in control of one of the regiments of this division, and you have a task to deal with the advice on the way, but also the corps commander presses on you and says that you don’t mess with them for too long and you have only a few hours for everything. ...
Will you waste your time to destroy the NKVD regiment in full? The NKVD fighters are also not fools to resist to the last person, especially since they do not have any heavy weapons, they will not. People will accept a short fire contact and after the distance is dangerously close, they will begin to retreat. At the expense of your better preparation, you will smash those who really bother you to pass, but the rest crumble too much so that you would continue to tinker with them having an order to continue moving into the roughness of the Soviet defense as soon as possible.

And although I am talking about the NKVD, this also applies to the German guard regiment.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 12/11/2021 7:45:29 PM >

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 12
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:46:43 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
Turn 2, probably full TOE and supply/ammo/fuel not sure about CPP motorized division (it means higher than average German unit morale) with 14k people attacks 1.6k Soviets in perfect conditions (clear air, ground) which leads to a loss of ~450 and probably few more disrupted/damaged elements and you call this as this is how it should be?
Really?

Probably you are a Soviet player that would like to stop Axis around Novgorod/Smolensk/Kiev/Odessa. Will it be an interesting game for you?
I can understand that you was one of the loudest in a topic "Soviets has no playability now" as it was way to strong, but calling this one an intended situation...


Maybe we could actually test out this new update for, say, a few weeks and many turns before giving up on it? Playing a campaign should mean playing it to its full length, not giving up if a few battles don't turn out exactly as we'd like.

From a historical standpoint, yes that battle result is also entirely plausible.

The CVs there in the second battle (which also seems quite plausible) at 0 and 17,000 are something we've seen before when one side goes down to zero. I would take that as a bit of an artifact rather than as especially meaningful. For display purposes, we could likely make it look better, but looking at the forces themselves and the fact that one side clearly made its checks and the other did not, the result seems ok.

Regards,

- Erik



< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/11/2021 7:47:36 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 13
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:46:53 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x amount of units.
With current CPP system where you lose 50% of CPP i would be surprised if 1/3 of motorized division in a hasty attack would not be able to route them.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 14
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:50:26 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x amount of units.
With current CPP system where you lose 50% of CPP i would be surprised if 1/3 of motorized division in a hasty attack would not be able to route them.


With all due respect, while occasional instances did occur when units were wiped out or surrendered en masse in a fight to the finish at the tactical scale, this type of result with say 10-30% losses and the rest of a unit being disrupted and routed were far more common in lop-sided battles.

The goal of the Motorized Division in this Hasty Attack was to take the ground and open a path, not to wipe out the enemy unit completely within that hex once it gave way. If you want to get the rest of them, encircle them and cut the off at the operational scale. You have that ability as a player, so use it.

My best advice is not to over-focus on your imagined balance for a given battle. Accept that battles have a wide range of possible results and that those above are quite plausible. Then see how an entire campaign unfolds before getting concerned. If real issues develop, we'll be watching.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/11/2021 7:53:23 PM >


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 15
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:50:54 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x amount of units.
With current CPP system where you lose 50% of CPP i would be surprised if 1/3 of motorized division in a hasty attack would not be able to route them.

Apparently you are not completely aware of how to conduct an offensive in real hostilities, because you describe a picture that is painted in a movie, it has little to do with reality.

No serious commander will divide his division into a bunch of small groups for a goal that is not worth the effort, 1,500 people are not equivalent to the capture of Pskov.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 16
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:52:17 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Maybe we could actually test out this new update for, say, a few weeks and many turns before giving up on it? Playing a campaign should mean playing it to its full length, not giving up if a few battles don't turn out exactly as we'd like.

From a historical standpoint, yes that battle result is also entirely plausible.

The CVs there in the second battle (which also seems quite plausible) at 0 and 17,000 are something we've seen before when one side goes down to zero. I would take that as a bit of an artifact rather than as especially meaningful. For display purposes, we could likely make it look better, but looking at the forces themselves and the fact that one side clearly made its checks and the other did not, the result seems ok.

Regards,

- Erik



I am not saying that is was not tested. I respect all of the work that developers/testers/all other people are doing.
If this results are intended - ok, i have no problems.
All of my posts are just my humble opinion.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 17
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:54:22 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x amount of units.
With current CPP system where you lose 50% of CPP i would be surprised if 1/3 of motorized division in a hasty attack would not be able to route them.

Apparently you are not completely aware of how to conduct an offensive in real hostilities, because you describe a picture that is painted in a movie, it has little to do with reality.

No serious commander will divide his division into a bunch of small groups for a goal that is not worth the effort, 1,500 people are not equivalent to the capture of Pskov.


But in a game you are forced to.
Otherwise you lose 50% CPP to a weak target that is just standing on your way. And without CPP units are pretty weak. This is how game works.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/11/2021 7:56:17 PM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 18
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 7:56:27 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
But in a game you are forced too.
Otherwise you lose 50% CPP to a weak target that is just standing on your way. And without CPP units are pretty weak. This is how game works.


As far as I know, when the attack comes with an overwhelming advantage of more than 10 to 1, there is little or no CPP spending.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 19
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 8:00:46 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
But in a game you are forced too.
Otherwise you lose 50% CPP to a weak target that is just standing on your way. And without CPP units are pretty weak. This is how game works.


As far as I know, when the attack comes with an overwhelming advantage of more than 10 to 1, there is little or no CPP spending.


I believe this applies only for defenders.

quote:

23.2.2
CPP ’s will be lost at a rate of one per hex as they move using the tactical movement mode.Units that participate in an attack will lose half their CPP once the battle is resolved.If a unit is attacked and forced to retreat it will lose all its CPP. If it is attacked and the attack fails the lost CPP will vary according to the final odds and the intensity of the attack:
if the odds were >=1.5 to 1, then the defender will lose half their CPP
if the final odds were >=1 to 1, the defender will lose one quarter of their CPP
if the final odds were less than 1-1 the defender will lose 10% of their CPP
A SU gains or losses CPP according to the actions of the unit they are attached to. In addition, if a SU is re-attached (either to a different HQ or to or from a Combat Unit) it will lose 50% of its existing CPP.Units sent to the National Reserve will also lose all their retained CPP.


P.S

That is why on turn 1 as an Axis you want to split divisions and make a hasty attacks on border fortifications, as later on you can merge them again and save more CPP for a serious battles.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/11/2021 8:07:02 PM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 20
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 8:10:15 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
CPP is always halved when attacking.


To get back to the thread's subject, I understand, Erik. Will continue the server game and see how things develop.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/11/2021 8:11:32 PM >

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 21
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/11/2021 9:43:03 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
Better to ask why are Germans have no losses in these attacks against NKVD unit.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 22
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 4:44:45 AM   
Gam3r

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/2/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps


It is easy - go offroad, they cant chase you there.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 23
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 6:04:35 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have hard time imagining how non motorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x amount of units.

Aren't these attacks was into the swamp hex?

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 24
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 10:42:07 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

To me it would appear that hasty attacks are very much on the low end now in terms of losses and to an extent combat results.

In order to test this, I've gone back to a 4 vs 4 PBEM game's turn 2 and recreated a few battles fought there in the new patch with the same moves done and with the same units.

....


In both situations, this was 36th Motorized's very first combat of the game, with 66 CPP on hand, against an NKVD border guard unit.


its worth bearing in mind the losses shown on the immediate combat screen are slightly misleading. The battle screen (23.10.2 and related sections) shows losses purely as an artifact of destroyed elements and assumes all the components of the element are 'killed'.

for a big normal battle this is a reasonably approximation to the real losses but for a small one-sided engagement it can be misleading.

Once the battle is over, some bits of a destroyed element are rescued to wounded etc, some bits of a damaged element become dead or wounded and so on.

This is shown in the losses table under latest battle (forget the actual title)

there is then the churn around damaged/destroyed elements and losses in the logistics phase


_____________________________


(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 25
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 10:49:52 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline
EDIT: I was mistaken, those attacks were indeed in the swamp hex.

Here's three separate sequences of attacks on the same unit in clear hexes, using only units that hadn't been attacked nor attacked at all in the game:

First sequence:






Second sequence:





Third sequence, I opened the attack with the Panzer division as usual and then brought all 3 divisions on the same hex to hasty attack again:




Uploaded these just to share some more preliminary, early campaign data I suppose. I am in agreement with Erik that more data over a longer period of time (into 1942/1943) is needed to assess the changes for hasty attacks and if they now behave as intended.

Perhaps some Stalingrad to Berlin AARs will be useful for this purpose.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 12/12/2021 11:51:26 AM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 26
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 2:11:33 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline
"No serious commander will divide his division into a bunch of small groups for a goal that is not worth the effort, 1,500 people are not equivalent to the capture of Pskov."

~You obviously are unaware of the 82nd Airborne's Anit Armor defense. The entire division was broken into a multilayered defense box consisting of elements as small as a squad. Serious enough for you.

"I have hard time imagining how nonmotorized infantry can disengage from motorized corps that has almost 10x the number of units."

~I learned how to do that at the Infantry school for boys almost fifty years ago. In the right terrain Light infantry has many advantages over those loud, blind beasts that are lumbering and thrashing around. Amazing what a bit of explosives, a couple of land mines or dropped trees can do.

~Erik +1 sometimes we need to be patient and not jump to conclusions.


_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 27
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 4:53:22 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 10/10/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete
~You obviously are unaware of the 82nd Airborne's Anit Armor defense. The entire division was broken into a multilayered defense box consisting of elements as small as a squad. Serious enough for you.


That is, using the example of defense, you want to show that in the offensive, division into small groups will lead to effective advancement?

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 28
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 5:05:20 PM   
jubjub

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline
Air support is now more important than ever when you're doing hasty attacks. It can easily double the amount of disrupted and killed units in combat.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)
Post #: 29
RE: Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks - 12/12/2021 8:12:11 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline
Jubjub +1

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Tech Support >> Patch 1.02.11 hasty attacks Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.938