RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions

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RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/25/2004 3:26:19 AM

KG Erwin

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Skotty, in each of the three aircraft at the bottom of your list, there is only one of the weapons mentioned. Are you OK with the ammo loadouts for these?

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RE: 8.0 Corrections/Suggestions - 2/25/2004 3:50:22 AM

Skotty702

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Skotty, in each of the three aircraft at the bottom of your list, there is only one of the weapons mentioned. Are you OK with the ammo loadouts for these?

I only mentioned the weapons I see to be in error in the number of guns equiped. The other weapons are fine IMO and really don't have a number of HE for them. Doesn't the game abstract MG shots as bursts? And the same with autocannons. Only the 75mm gun on the B-25H may be one shell per HE ammo shot. Not sure here if the 75mm cannon would be fired more than once per pass in a turn. Also, I am only refering to the US OOB. A quick look at that after a PBEM game when my P-39's clobbered four Tigers in four passes with 37mm fire. I assume this 100% kill rate because the P-39 is currently armed with six 37mm cannons.

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Post #: 182

HELP! - 2/25/2004 5:41:03 AM

Goblin

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Ok guys, I said I was done with this, but another amazing one has come up, and I need help on it.

-The US LMG team (a two man team) that comes with the Armored Infantry platoon has a FC of 5 and a RF of 4.
-The regular two man LMG team in the US comes with a FC 0, RF 0.

I pointed this out to the OOB team. A US HMG has a FC/RF of 4/3, and the MMG has a 3/2.

So they fixed both light MG's by giving the LMG teams a 2/1, right?

NO. They gave the LMG team with the FC/RF of 0/0 a boost to 5/4.

Am I the only one baffled by this? This is a two man team, that can move and shoot, and now outguns most crew-served, tripod-stabilized weapons.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/24/2004 10:58:43 PM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:18:10 AM

KG Erwin

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Goblin, I just got this from Bryan, so I'm passing it on:
"The 30 LMGs in 7.11 and 6.0 were not reflecting what these guns could do. These weapons rarely did any damage to enemy infantry. Many gamers complained about this and in order to have these weapons perform close to WW II era, the only thing that worked was to raise the FC and RF. Raising the warhead size changed the sound and graphic oddities were seen during testing. Only thing that could work for these was to raise the FC and RF instead. That is why they were raised - to get them to work correctly. You can pass this on to his request."
I can only add this-- make the changes yourself using the OOB Editor, and test them. You guys are getting this data, so incorporate it into your OOBs and see for yourself how it affects gameplay. Remember, ALL of you are potential playtesters, so take this as an example. Let the team know what you think. This is a preview of the changes we're making, BUT you have to make the changes on your own using the OOB Editor that comes with the game. Each and every OOB that features this weapon has to be changed.
I hope some of you will now realize how big of a job the OOB Team is undertaking for your benefit.
Speaking as a moderator, I think we should be appreciative of their volunteer efforts
to do the historical research and help improve our enjoyment of the game.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 2/25/2004 12:50:16 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:36:43 AM

VikingNo2

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maybe they are two goblin team insteady to two men

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:49:54 AM

KG Erwin

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I didn't quite understand that, Viking. Can you restate that? Should I buy you another beer ? The last time I saw that bowing routine, it was to the porcelain queen. Just kidding. Goblin deserves the honors. Now I'm REALLY just kidding.

Goblin, you know I love ya.

I really, really miss those Depot smilies! I'd be giving my friend a two-finger salute.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

maybe they are two goblin team insteady to two men

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 2/25/2004 1:01:51 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:52:40 AM

Goblin

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Well, it makes HMG's and MMG's pointless, thats how it affects gameplay.

I thought it might be a 'They didn't feel right' thing. I was told during the initial 8.0 development that making MG's more deadly was not a great idea, that just PEN was going to be included. I see that applied only to stable, crew-served weapons, not to light MG teams, which were brutal killers compared to a HMG...

You do realize that people will buy these exclusively when they figure out that they have better stats than just about any HMG, and can move and shoot. The only balance will be to make their price 50 or something. Or make heavy MG's a 7/6 and MMG's a 6/5. Of course, then you have to boost forts and such too. Definately a good change.

Now I am done. When plain stupidity takes over, then it is pointless to argue. You guys ignore the logical arguments that quote sources, and then change something like this based on complaints on how it 'seems'.

Goblin- A Goblin is in complete disbelief

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/25/2004 12:58:11 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 8:06:04 AM

KG Erwin

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Well, Goblin, on your behalf, I see that USMC .30 cal MMGs and HMGs did NOT get this boost, and they don't deserve it. Let me do some off-site wrangling, and I'll get back to you.

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 8:09:04 AM

Goblin

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Thank you, KG, it is appreciated, but you will most likely get them boosted to 7/6 or something by pointing that out (since they are MMG's and HMG's). I no longer care. I have had my say, just like prior to 8.0's release. Still, thanks for being willing to check.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/25/2004 1:32:21 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 4:20:04 PM

o4r

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Maybe the recon status for the command unit of any company may be removed. It is noted that during some email game, some of them purchase such unit in mass. They will purchase the company and delete the rest, leaving the 2 or 1 company commander unit which will automatically equip with recon status. Such unit is espically good at scouting. Now I know why some ppl purchase so many unit in 2... they didnt purchase the section but they are using the company commander.

Losing such unit loss more point but they are harder to ambush thus making them hardier to kill.

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 5:16:22 PM

Voriax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

-The US LMG team (a two man team) that comes with the Armored Infantry platoon has a FC of 5 and a RF of 4.

Goblin

Thanks for pointing this out..<editor>..0 and 0 for now. Perhaps that 2/1 later.

Voriax

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 6:17:52 PM

harlekwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Voriax

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

-The US LMG team (a two man team) that comes with the Armored Infantry platoon has a FC of 5 and a RF of 4.

Goblin

Thanks for pointing this out..<editor>..0 and 0 for now. Perhaps that 2/1 later.

Voriax

hey Vor how ya doing? PM me please.

regards,
sven

< Message edited by harlekwin -- 2/25/2004 11:22:58 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 6:18:18 PM

Goblin

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I have to say, to everyone reading this thread or others like it, and agreeing with the guys trying to correct these mistakes, that by not posting your opinions, it contributes to the degeneration of the OOB's. The OOB team will listen, but not to me, or anyone else that has been less than congenial with them. So stop reading and post. Same goes for you people that like the changes, post in support of them. Have your say one way or another.

Goblin

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 6:28:00 PM

VikingNo2

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Yes, Yes another beer would be good, buy the reast of the guys at Matrix beers too, but please look into what Goblin is saying looks like a simple fix that was most likely overlooked.

< Message edited by VikingNo2 -- 2/25/2004 8:27:41 AM >

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 6:43:29 PM

rbrunsman

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Can I complain again that I think it's a bad idea to link a unit's purchase cost with its availability? This scheme makes it very difficult to have balanced PBEM games. It will keep me playing v7.1.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:35:32 PM

Goblin

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Goblin

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 7:50:12 PM

Voriax

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I have posted, last time just before the great crash. Just that I cannot spot everything :)
Btw Erwin, did you manage to capture all the aircraft bugs I had listed? Something like couple dozen or so in several oob's.

Voriax

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 8:19:49 PM

Goblin

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I know. I was addressing those that have not posted yet.

Goblin

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RE: HELP! - 2/25/2004 9:05:12 PM

VikingNo2

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I know I have brought it up several times in the past but is the US 75mm Halftrack TD being changed ? No one has ever said yes or no to the question, currently it can only kill busses and halftracks

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Yeah this is all get guys but..... - 2/25/2004 11:55:34 PM

Commander Klank

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What about my T-50 tank?

The armor is wrong on it's front and sides by 5mm and the front slop should be at 50% not 30...

T-50 tank stats

I play tested the tank withthe new armor stats and it's a little more toughter for the smaller German guns to penetrate: esspesally the 37mm.

This would be an easy change for the 8.2 patch.

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RE: Yeah this is all get guys but..... - 2/26/2004 5:22:38 PM

harlekwin

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I have a query. more of a philosophical line of query. Some people at another forum say that people wanting fact based OOBs whenever possible are "high priests" of grognardhood.

What I want to know is if whenever there is a judgement call on say how effective Tigers should "feel" is the baseline every Tiger should function like Wittman is in the crew?

What I mean is how is that a realistic benchmark for how "Tigers" should feel, or the position of Melvin that ATGs stopping entire tank platoons solo is somehow the benchmark?

Going down that path I guess we should have had Alvin York teach marksmanship to all our recruits and then the MG would be obsolete.

I dunno it just feels right.

Thing is a lot of us think that whenever possible OOBs should be 9 parts fact for 1 part "feel" since "feel" seems to be based a lot of the time on exceptional behavior and myth rather than an averaging of likely outcomes.

Then again maybe that is just me.

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RE: Yeah this is all get guys but..... - 2/26/2004 5:56:31 PM

JJKettunen

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I think it is rather simple. Either the game tries to

1) model history, which means that OOBs should be based on more or less verifiable data,

2) or to model fantasy, which means that OOBs should be based on anecdotes and myths.

The problem with the former is that real values may not work with the game engine as desired. However if still strictly applied, we are dealing only with a systematic error that treats all the OOBs the same, which is very acceptable.

The problem with the latter is that it is impossible to systematically apply data from anecdotes and myths, since they are so varied and some of them even contradict each other.

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Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 9:50:27 AM

Orzel Bialy

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Ok...I'm not an OoB expert by any means...but I am doing some research and have a question. In the OoB's I came across the following data for 37mm ATG's:

_________Ger Pak35/36____Pol wz.36____Czech vz.30____Finn 37 K/36
Max Range_____160_________160___________160__________160
Max APCR______72__________40*___________72___________72
Accuracy_______44__________48____________70*__________70*
Warhead_______2___________2_____________2____________3
HE Kill__________2___________2_____________2____________2

Pen Vaues
AP Pen_________64__________56____________43___________56
HE Pen_________12__________12____________11___________15
APCR___________94__________74____________71___________74
HEAT___________0___________0_____________0____________0

Research
Muzzle Vel_____762m/s______800m/s_________N/A________830m/s

Pen of 30
degree Armor:
at 500m______29-32mm____33-35mm________N/A_______33-37mm
at 1000m_____15-22mm____18-25mm________N/A_______18-28mm

Now from what I have been able to find on the net thus far it seems that ALL these weapons were modeled after the Bofors produced 3.7 cm ATG...so why the wide variance between the Polish wz.36 and the rest of them on the Max APCR range? And then why the jacked up Accuracy of the Czech and Finnish models?

If the Czech and Finnish versions are getting that big of a spike in accuracy for having an additional 30m/s on muzzle velocity...then the German accuracy should be even worse....right? Not to mention the German gun reportly has the lower of the historical penetration values of 30 degree sloped armor...yet has the best penetration value in the game.

I would love additional input from some gun gurus if possible to make light of any of this data...since it's just the tip of the iceberg for me.

< Message edited by Orzel Bialy -- 2/27/2004 2:01:26 AM >

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 5:51:04 PM

harlekwin

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Well AmmoSgt could have explained things a lot better but the only possible explanation if the hardware is the same is ammo.

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 6:12:43 PM

Orzel Bialy

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Sven,

I could understand better quality German ammo allowing a better penetration value despite the inferior performance data of the PAK35/36 versus the others...but that would not account for the 25+ point advantage in the Czech and Finnish guns accuracy values if you ask me. As far as I know neither the Finns nor the Czechs were making ammo that was THAT superior to the rest of Europe.

These guns were all basically home-produced, lincensed, versions of the Swedish gun...and the Czech / Finnish guns did not employ better optics/ranging systems to their models as far as I can find...so it would still raise the question in my book what basis was used to determine such a hefty spike in accuracy?

Ohhh AmmoSgt....where are you????

< Message edited by Orzel Bialy -- 2/27/2004 10:17:27 AM >

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 8:22:49 PM

AmmoSgt

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Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 8:30:13 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

I tend to agree with you here.

Unfortunately

But I still belive that it will be possibly to alter the results. I tend to belive that Matrix wouldn�t allow such a flawed perception of things to flourish.

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 2/27/2004 6:36:31 PM >

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 8:34:43 PM

harlekwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

Ammo if you stay reasoned and present your case you can still accomplish something.

Please don't go.

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 8:56:20 PM

Orzel Bialy

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First of all...

AmmoSgt please consider sticking around...it be a shame to lose someone with your knowledge.

Second of all...I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started poking around with the early 37mm ATG's because I'm becoming very confused with the data I pull from the OoB's against information I find on the web or in armament books.

Here is a data table of 37mm guns that were almost all patterned off of the Bofors 3.7cm ATG of 1935...although the Soviet obr.30 was a home-developed, up gunned piece based off of an earlier Bofors 25mm gun if my research is correct.

Anyway, what I see are numbers that are all over the place...I mean we have Bulgarian and Greek guns with the best Accuracy ratings...yet they have some of the worse penetration values.

My understanding of ballistics would say that if their accuracy was that good then it was because their muzzle velocity was good...which should also mean that their penetration values were better. Even with sub-par quality ammo these two guns would have better penetration values than what is stated...or am I crazy to figure it that way?

*** NOTE!!!*** Goblin pointed out an error in the data box...the Soviet HE Kill should be 2 not 20...my apologies.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orzel Bialy -- 2/27/2004 1:27:43 PM >

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RE: Early 37mm ATG's - 2/27/2004 9:12:30 PM

Goblin

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From experience and observation, I have to agree with Ammo.

Pointing out obvious errors nets no result, or increases the errors to other places. I have even been asked to do the OOB teams research for them, after pointing out mistakes, with them telling me that if they had to look up the mistakes, it would take away from other things. I am completely disheartened and frustrated by all of this. It really does feel good to just make the decision to sit out. Less stress, and most assuredly less Tums.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/27/2004 6:34:12 PM >

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