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RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 3:57:24 AM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

Well, the people who want a balance experience don't require a tweak in the weapons systems themselves. It can all happen in the values upon force selection. If my forces are way inferior I have to pay less. But how much less? Now were in the realm of opinion. There really need not be any changes to what people think are historically accurate oobs, but this is a trap. Problems come up when trying to make what looks like accurate oobs at the individual unit stat level because the system itself doesn't 100% accurately reflect reality (which is an unreasonable goal really). Given that the system can't reproduce 100% realistic results the oobs can't be 100% realistic/historical if the values are set according to real world numbers. Armor penetration (which is quite awesome as it is) is a good example. The complex calculations represent the dev teams best formula for trajectory and penetration, but its not perfect. That means that giving every weapon it's real world penetration value and armor thickness will NEVER produce 100% accurate results. The oobs and the system need to meet part-way, and that's where all the misunderstanding and opinions and ideas come in. What do YOU think will happen when a Sherman with a short 76mm hits a Tiger on the front of it's turret at a 15 degree angle from 800 meters away and 4 meters above? Well it depends, and a lot of things have to be abstracted and a lot of assumtions have to be made for the system just to work. Mathematic abstractions of reality tend to have some degenerative results at the ends of its ranges, especially if a random variable is thrown in there.

This is not as cut and dry as people who want history and people who want balance. They want the same thing... for things to represent real world challenges and real world results. Since only a small amount of the real world challenges are mathematic trying to create them organically in a system is not easy. (And so far, unattainable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try tho!)

Tomo

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 31

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 4:38:09 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

Yes, Tomo. Now we're getting on the right track. My other responsibilties take precedence over all of this (family, work and all that other real world stuff), but I will keep you abreast of the general flow of the OOB Team's efforts.
However, I am NOT their spokesman. My overriding responsibility is to this forum. Over the next few weeks, you may not see me posting so much, but you guys are being exemplary in your conduct and quality of postings... Keep it up.

_____________________________

(in reply to Tombstone)

Post #: 32

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 2:01:20 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

"Fair and Balanced" vs. "Historically Realistic"

As already pointed out, balancing can be done with proper unit pricing, not by making disneyland versions of certain weapons and all the aircrafts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSPI for one like a little of both...I don't want to play with "fantasy" weapons, but I also don't enjoy playing a battle as the French in 1940 and watching my troops flee the field on Turn 2 because a couple of Stukas flew overhead.

So you really think that happened in western front 1940? Oh, please...

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSPOne last comment...the amount of rancor being shown about a freely-available game (and it IS only a game) is disturbing. Negative criticisms and sarcastic digs do not improve a product; they divert attention from the real issues to defending against personal attacks.

I haven't seen any rancor yet, and if all criticism is seen only as negative and sarcasm is outlawed, then it's no wonder that once credible OOBs can be mutilated at will.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 33

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 2:09:24 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombstone

Well, the people who want a balance experience don't require a tweak in the weapons systems themselves. It can all happen in the values upon force selection. If my forces are way inferior I have to pay less. But how much less? Now were in the realm of opinion. There really need not be any changes to what people think are historically accurate oobs, but this is a trap. Problems come up when trying to make what looks like accurate oobs at the individual unit stat level because the system itself doesn't 100% accurately reflect reality (which is an unreasonable goal really). Given that the system can't reproduce 100% realistic results the oobs can't be 100% realistic/historical if the values are set according to real world numbers. Armor penetration (which is quite awesome as it is) is a good example. The complex calculations represent the dev teams best formula for trajectory and penetration, but its not perfect. That means that giving every weapon it's real world penetration value and armor thickness will NEVER produce 100% accurate results. The oobs and the system need to meet part-way, and that's where all the misunderstanding and opinions and ideas come in. What do YOU think will happen when a Sherman with a short 76mm hits a Tiger on the front of it's turret at a 15 degree angle from 800 meters away and 4 meters above? Well it depends, and a lot of things have to be abstracted and a lot of assumtions have to be made for the system just to work. Mathematic abstractions of reality tend to have some degenerative results at the ends of its ranges, especially if a random variable is thrown in there.

There are no 100% accurate results in any case...Anyway what we can expect is that if there's a systematic error produced by using real values based on hard facts, then all the weapons have to be tweaked systematically in same way, not cherry picking certain units to fit some anecdotes and myths. 'Nuff said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TombstoneThis is not as cut and dry as people who want history and people who want balance. They want the same thing... for things to represent real world challenges and real world results. Since only a small amount of the real world challenges are mathematic trying to create them organically in a system is not easy. (And so far, unattainable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try tho!)

Realism, however difficult to achieve, should be the goal. Balancing is done with unit pricing, not by tweaking unit data to fit their "fixed" prices.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Tombstone)

Post #: 34

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 3:18:27 PM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombstone

Well, the people who want a balance experience don't require a tweak in the weapons systems themselves. It can all happen in the values upon force selection. If my forces are way inferior I have to pay less. But how much less? Now were in the realm of opinion. There really need not be any changes to what people think are historically accurate oobs, but this is a trap. Problems come up when trying to make what looks like accurate oobs at the individual unit stat level because the system itself doesn't 100% accurately reflect reality (which is an unreasonable goal really). Given that the system can't reproduce 100% realistic results the oobs can't be 100% realistic/historical if the values are set according to real world numbers. Armor penetration (which is quite awesome as it is) is a good example. The complex calculations represent the dev teams best formula for trajectory and penetration, but its not perfect. That means that giving every weapon it's real world penetration value and armor thickness will NEVER produce 100% accurate results. The oobs and the system need to meet part-way, and that's where all the misunderstanding and opinions and ideas come in. What do YOU think will happen when a Sherman with a short 76mm hits a Tiger on the front of it's turret at a 15 degree angle from 800 meters away and 4 meters above? Well it depends, and a lot of things have to be abstracted and a lot of assumtions have to be made for the system just to work. Mathematic abstractions of reality tend to have some degenerative results at the ends of its ranges, especially if a random variable is thrown in there.

There are no 100% accurate results in any case...Anyway what we can expect is that if there's a systematic error produced by using real values based on hard facts, then all the weapons have to be tweaked systematically in same way, not cherry picking certain units to fit some anecdotes and myths. 'Nuff said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TombstoneThis is not as cut and dry as people who want history and people who want balance. They want the same thing... for things to represent real world challenges and real world results. Since only a small amount of the real world challenges are mathematic trying to create them organically in a system is not easy. (And so far, unattainable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try tho!)

Realism, however difficult to achieve, should be the goal. Balancing is done with unit pricing, not by tweaking unit data to fit their "fixed" prices.

There just seems to be this strange need for 'balance' all the time, which incidentally usually even extends to individual units themselves, such that one's Sherman would stand up against another's Tiger etc. I thought part of the idea to playing wargames was to "get away" from the cookie-cutter syndrome of checkers or chess. Besides, if somebody wants to really play like that they can always have the same side face each other. I think this desire for balance is making wargaming more and more undesireable; it seems to stem largely from the RTS crowd as though it's some dogma that all sides should have the same units and that they should all have a successful counter-unit to each of the opponents units (basically rock/paper/scissors).

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 35

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 6:09:33 PM

Rune Iversen

Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

"Fair and Balanced" vs. "Historically Realistic"

As already pointed out, balancing can be done with proper unit pricing, not by making disneyland versions of certain weapons and all the aircrafts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSPI for one like a little of both...I don't want to play with "fantasy" weapons, but I also don't enjoy playing a battle as the French in 1940 and watching my troops flee the field on Turn 2 because a couple of Stukas flew overhead.

So you really think that happened in western front 1940? Oh, please...

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSPOne last comment...the amount of rancor being shown about a freely-available game (and it IS only a game) is disturbing. Negative criticisms and sarcastic digs do not improve a product; they divert attention from the real issues to defending against personal attacks.

I haven't seen any rancor yet, and if all criticism is seen only as negative and sarcasm is outlawed, then it's no wonder that once credible OOBs can be mutilated at will.

Beer

...and the truth shall set you free...

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to JJKettunen)

Post #: 36

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 6:15:05 PM

harlekwin

Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline

Rancor?

Tomo I must have a different definition than you in mind for that word.

Rancor means somehing other than sarcasm, and questioning.

_____________________________

$ociali$m-from those who will to those who won't.....

(in reply to Rune Iversen)

Post #: 37

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 8:28:32 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

Well as long as I am logged on ..
Folks wake up and smell the coffee .. stop wasting your time trying to use logic and facts to move the OOB's towards something realistic , they aren't listening they don't want to hear it . Look at the results and the total BS answers you get to even the best documented posting with even the best reasoned arguements .. it over folks ..

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to harlekwin)

Post #: 38

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 8:30:51 PM

harlekwin

Posts: 5863
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: arkham asylum
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Well as long as I am logged on ..
Folks wake up and smell the coffee .. stop wasting your time trying to use logic and facts to move the OOB's towards something realistic , they aren't listening they don't want to hear it . Look at the results and the total BS answers you get to even the best documented posting with even the best reasoned arguements .. it over folks ..

Ammo don't give up the fight. We may not be able to alter the course on this but we may be able to protect CL/CA from this sort of thing. Please don't give up I am sorry I did not come to your aid and I missed your posts.

We need your help. It is NOT over yet.

Facts trump feel if enough people voice that sentiment.

_____________________________

$ociali$m-from those who will to those who won't.....

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 39

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 8:31:15 PM

Rune Iversen

Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Well as long as I am logged on ..
Folks wake up and smell the coffee .. stop wasting your time trying to use logic and facts to move the OOB's towards something realistic , they aren't listening they don't want to hear it . Look at the results and the total BS answers you get to even the best documented posting with even the best reasoned arguements .. it over folks ..

Sigh....

I fear you are right

But we can at least go down fighting.

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 2/27/2004 6:34:54 PM >

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to AmmoSgt)

Post #: 40

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 9:14:43 PM

JJKettunen

Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harlekwin
...We may not be able to alter the course on this but we may be able to protect CL/CA from this sort of thing...

Exactly.

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to harlekwin)

Post #: 41

RE: What the Heck has happened to this forum??? - 2/27/2004 9:15:23 PM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

I think the fight was over before 8.0 was released; thats when they started to ignore people who pointed out errors, and when the secrecy about the OOB's started. Beaten without firing any shots...

Goblin

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to Rune Iversen)

Post #: 42

OOB - 2/27/2004 9:18:14 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, If OOB do not reflect history and reality then they are fantasy.
People who want a perfectly balanced game only need to have both sides take the same points and same nation. Presto perfect balance. The OOB should be for players who want to fight WW2 era battles between WW2 era nations. Accuracy (such as can be defined and documented) should be the paramount consideration. To make these battles balanced you use mission type and turn numbers not "tweeked" data.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 2/27/2004 2:21:59 PM >

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Rune Iversen)

Post #: 43

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 9:21:22 PM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

But you are forgetting game engine limitations...

Goblin

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 44

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 9:31:01 PM

Rune Iversen

Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

But you are forgetting game engine limitations...

Goblin

The trackbusting MG strikes again

< Message edited by Rune Iversen -- 2/27/2004 7:34:37 PM >

_____________________________

Ignoring the wulfir
Fighting the EUnuchs from within

(in reply to Goblin)

Post #: 45

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 9:39:40 PM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

But you are forgetting game engine limitations...

Goblin

The trackbusting MG strikes again

Actually, yes. They are still in the game in at least 6 spots, and that was just a brief scan by myself. I reported it, and they then wanted me to list where, what gun, nation, etc...

Nope.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/27/2004 4:28:15 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to Rune Iversen)

Post #: 46

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 10:57:44 PM

Commander Klank

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/15/2000
From: Killleen, Texas
Status: offline

Goblin!

Tell me where the track busting machineguns are in the game or I'll turn on the lights!!!

_____________________________

Commander Klank

(in reply to Goblin)

Post #: 47

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 11:02:35 PM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline

Oh boy. I'm just talking about the inherent difficulties in something as complex as our favorite game. I see passions run high, I'm not trying to stir anything up... and Sven! I didn't make a comment about sarcasm or rancor (whose definition I'm not really aware of aside from the the Star Wars beast), that was someone else! Ammo, I'm sorry to sense your bitterness over this. I guess I'm lucky I haven't had a chance to play for a while. I'm only posting here so much lately cause I'm sick. I don't know who the guys who are working on the OOBs are now, and I'm not trying to talk crap here but experience with this sort of thing is hard to come by. Sometimes going through the motions and taking your licks is the only way. If new people are trying to get the OOBs to come together let them work out there ramp up time. We would all run into similar difficulties. For any given moment of time working on the OOBs for SPWAW the amount of data and issues is totally overwhelming. I got like 5 associate producers, 2 producers, and *10* game designers and stuff still slips through cracks. Problems with philosophy are a different issue, but those who are in charge are in charge.

That being said, regarding the Sherman should be more balanced to the Tiger thing- ?? Is that actually something people were bouncing around in that form? Charles, are you sure it wasn't more a discussion about what THEY believed to be the historical relationship?

Tomo

(in reply to Goblin)

Post #: 48

RE: OOB - 2/27/2004 11:22:31 PM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Klank

Goblin!

Tell me where the track busting machineguns are in the game or I'll turn on the lights!!!

See my thread at The Depot.

No Lights!

Goblin

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to Commander Klank)

Post #: 49

RE: OOB - 2/28/2004 12:25:33 AM

Capt. Pixel

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

I like 7.1 H2Hce. It gives me hours of worry-free entertainment every day (and I get my willy star *)

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Goblin)

Post #: 50

RE: OOB - 2/28/2004 12:29:46 AM

Kevin E. Duguay

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline

Goblin,

You pointed out that people that pointed out errors at the time of the7.1 release were ignored or worse. This was going on long before that. Around 6.0 or earlier I pointed out the Dreaded Russian T-37 assult gun that did not exist except as maybe a prototype. ITS still in the game. The Mobelwagen armed with the 20mm Flakvierling only one made. Production models were armed with a 37mm flak gun. But the old guard kept the wrong Icon and the info anyways even when Warhorse was nice enough to post the right Icon. The only person that seemed to listen to me at all was Panzer Leo. You won't find these bizzare anomilies in H2H.

Is this done because of arrogance, the "I'm smarter than you" syndrom? Well it beats the heck out of me. Now I must say that it seems that THEY are listening a little better, I just hope that THEY implement what they hear!

_____________________________

KED

(in reply to Goblin)

Post #: 51

RE: OOB - 2/28/2004 12:41:32 AM

Goblin

Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline

In honesty, I cannot speak for before this versions OOB, as I thought the others were decent. I speak specifically of changes made to this one, before release of it.

I assumed that the OOB changes were going to be fixing things like the ATG errors that Orzel pointed out, or the errors you pointed out, etc on and on, leaving stuff that was near to correct, or correct, alone. Instead, well, you know instead.

I personally think that this minor stuff should just have been fixed on the 7.1 OOB, and then released. Now pricing is involved in rarity enforcement, numbers are being made up for feel, etc etc. OOB team members have admitted to not even having 7.1 anymore. How can anything ever be reset or fixed? By listening to input, quoted sources, and admittedly, some educated guesswork where there exists no numbers. I still am baffled by some of the changes. We are told 'game code' constantly, but some of the changed things were working and accurate before the changes, so how can it be a code thing? I dunno.

I design scenarios now, so I worry less about stuff than I did. I simply change things when I design. Play is mostly ruined for me. One problem I have encountered now, is some numbers are not changable in the design editor. You can change FC for instance, but not RF. Thats bad when you look at the new .30 cal LMG. You can change the number of men in a unit, but not the ROF of weapons in it. Thats bad with the planned arty changes. You can change these things, but only if you package your own OOB's up and send them with your scenarios, and no player is going to go thru the hassle.

These are a few reasons I am so nervous about this release. They seem set on getting it out quickly, too.

Goblin

< Message edited by Goblin -- 2/27/2004 6:16:50 PM >

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to Kevin E. Duguay)

Post #: 52

RE: OOB - 2/28/2004 1:51:18 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tombstone

Oh boy. I'm just talking about the inherent difficulties in something as complex as our favorite game. I see passions run high, I'm not trying to stir anything up... and Sven! I didn't make a comment about sarcasm or rancor (whose definition I'm not really aware of aside from the the Star Wars beast), that was someone else! Ammo, I'm sorry to sense your bitterness over this. I guess I'm lucky I haven't had a chance to play for a while. I'm only posting here so much lately cause I'm sick. I don't know who the guys who are working on the OOBs are now, and I'm not trying to talk crap here but experience with this sort of thing is hard to come by. Sometimes going through the motions and taking your licks is the only way. If new people are trying to get the OOBs to come together let them work out there ramp up time. We would all run into similar difficulties. For any given moment of time working on the OOBs for SPWAW the amount of data and issues is totally overwhelming. I got like 5 associate producers, 2 producers, and *10* game designers and stuff still slips through cracks. Problems with philosophy are a different issue, but those who are in charge are in charge.

That being said, regarding the Sherman should be more balanced to the Tiger thing- ?? Is that actually something people were bouncing around in that form? Charles, are you sure it wasn't more a discussion about what THEY believed to be the historical relationship?

Tomo

I was offering generalization. We've seen discussions where those uninformed would say things like the Sherman should at least equal the Tiger because the US won the war and the Sherman was the most prominent AFV for them. It has nothing to do with the OOB team as far as I know, but I don't think that given human nature, to see executed, some of the same philosophies we've seen in the forum by non-OOB team members, wouldn't be too unpredictable. I was just more trying to make a statement against 'balance' and some weird twists it takes. Whether these sort of discussions went on in the OOB forum or not, I do not recall.

(in reply to Tombstone)

Post #: 53

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