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WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:42:57 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		I know many of you will look at this thread and start crying pirate, but thats not what I'm after. I am mostly wondering if we will need to have the disc in the drive to play WitP and if so, will it be able to be copied so I can play with a duplicate and keep the original nice and safe.

Many of you may not have any problems with damaging CDs in your computer drive, but I have lost several CDs that I play a lot to this and with WitP it will be no difference. Or perhaps if we could send back the damaged CD for a new one for a cheap price (like $5) or something like that it would workout as well. Can anyone answer this for me ?

Xargun
Post #: 1
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:56:02 AM   
2Stepper


Posts: 948
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: North Burbs of Omaha
Status: offline 		Well I can't give you an answer with regards to WiTP obviously, but I can tell you from recent experience with other games that they will occasionally include a "no cd" aspect in some update to the game when they're convinced it's time to move on to a sequel.

Seeing as that's unlikely in this particular case short of them modeling some other part of the world, I don't see why they couldn't do that for us. I would like to be able to play off a dupe I make and put the original in a safe deposit box honestly...

_____________________________


"Send in the Infantry. Tanks cost money... the dead cost nothing..." :)

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 2
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:57:09 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		As they have mentioned digital download, and as it would be wise to burn it to a cd too, that makes me think it won't have a cd required requirement.

But, anyone that hasn't been under a rock, knows you can find software that can copy anything.

I have never felt any guilt making spare expendable copies of my own game to use of course.

I expect no trouble in any event.

I just hope I can raise the funds without to great a delay :)

Has the pricing been mentioned anywhere recently?
Will retail box be different than download?

I am not asking for firm quotes.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 3
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:57:12 AM   
2Stepper


Posts: 948
Joined: 1/19/2003
From: North Burbs of Omaha
Status: offline 		Okay, maybe not THAT extreme, but you get the idea... I want to keep the bugger safe!!

_____________________________


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Post #: 4
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:06:33 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline 		True I have software that will COPY anything I own. But a copy doesn't always work when they want the CD in the drive. Its a 50 / 50 chance in my experience. But the ability to play without the CD would work best and satisfy everyone I think. Then I can put the original away nice and safe under my pillow...

One thing I don't want to see is no CD required for digital download, yet those of us who buy the actual CD need it to play. That would make me very upset.

Xargun

< Message edited by Xargun -- 6/4/2004 4:03:54 AM >

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 5
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:10:43 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.

I'm sure you'll find zero help if you walk into Blockbuster and say your DVD is scratched. They'll be more then happy to sell you a new one and thats about it. Why should software be *any* different then movies/music. You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.

Copy protection is mandatory these days, not an option. I will lay money that someone here will be posting the software on a service like eMule within the first week of it being released. It is a sad world full of evil people that we live in these days. Don't pretend otherwise.

(in reply to 2Stepper)
Post #: 6
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:34:57 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.

I'm sure you'll find zero help if you walk into Blockbuster and say your DVD is scratched. They'll be more then happy to sell you a new one and thats about it. Why should software be *any* different then movies/music. You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.

Copy protection is mandatory these days, not an option. I will lay money that someone here will be posting the software on a service like eMule within the first week of it being released. It is a sad world full of evil people that we live in these days. Don't pretend otherwise.


There are several ways to secure software from piracy without requiring the original CD to be the drive to play the game. In fact this kind of piracy prevention is kind of primative as every CD copy protection scheme ever created has shortly had a hack posted on some "crack" site within a few weeks anyway.

Systems similar to the one Microsoft uses are growing in popularity, where you register your copy with a machine fingerprint stored at the vendor's site before you can even run the game (or run after a short period of time) and the vendor returns a 128 bit DES encrypted liscense file that you must have on your disk in order to run the stuff. From that point on, the game runs ONLY on that computer and nowhere else. You can re-install over and over again on the same machine, but want to run on another machine? Buy another copy or deregister your copy with the vendor and reregister on another fingerprint. Very tough to crack that kind of piracy protection but it lets one keep their CD original in a safe place. You can beat that system, but it is such a pain that its not worth it for a $50-60 game....

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 7
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:48:14 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Only effective method I have *ever* seen was a hardware key. Everything else can be bypassed quite quickly. The lastest batch of cd inprinting seems to be fairly effective in that it costs a fair chunk of coin to have the hardware to get past it to decode and bypass the protection but is adds seriously to the cost of production.

As I said, I hope they embed peoples information into the game so when it shows up in a week, they can sue and recover a couple hundred grand that way.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 8
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 7:23:25 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		edit: I tried to delete. Your message showed that they do have a system for those who wish to upgrade. Never mind...

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 6/4/2004 5:21:22 AM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 9
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 8:37:26 AM   
Arnir


Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline 		My dad had a game CD shatter in the drive. Albeit it was the only game he ever played (Hoyle), it died within a year without his treating it incorrectly. It was most likely a flawed disk. In his case, I just bought him another $10 copy and that one has survived. Nevertheless, the customer shouldn't have to defend against charges of piracy to simply protect his/her investment.

I don't have a big problem with copy protection as long as it stays transparent. However, when it rejects certain cd-rom drives, etc. then it is defeating its purpose. With a game like WitP, matrix should/will know that I bought it from them, so I shouldn't think making a back up would be a big deal. Gamers who are into these types of games are usually quite willing to pay to keep the hobby alive. I would imagine that the paying customers aren't the danger here.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 10
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 4:04:11 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

However, when it rejects certain cd-rom drives, etc. then it is defeating its purpose


Not to argue the point, but the only drives that have problems with copy protection are the ones you pick up at a second hand shop for $2. No drive made in the last 5 years has this problem.

(in reply to Arnir)
Post #: 11
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:18:07 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

However, when it rejects certain cd-rom drives, etc. then it is defeating its purpose


Not to argue the point, but the only drives that have problems with copy protection are the ones you pick up at a second hand shop for $2. No drive made in the last 5 years has this problem.


I believe a lot fo people had trouble with the UV disk after the 2.30 patch. The solution many people posted was to use it in another drive. I think some of the DVD-rom drives (which also can play CDs, of course) were not able to read it.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 12
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:20:37 PM   
emorbius44

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 5/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.

I'm sure you'll find zero help if you walk into Blockbuster and say your DVD is scratched. They'll be more then happy to sell you a new one and thats about it. Why should software be *any* different then movies/music. You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.

Copy protection is mandatory these days, not an option. I will lay money that someone here will be posting the software on a service like eMule within the first week of it being released. It is a sad world full of evil people that we live in these days. Don't pretend otherwise.



I've never heard of a CD getting zapped in a drive before and I have a recording studio and use zillions of them. Now being a klutz and dropping it is another thing. The dud CD's can get dropped, stomped on and dragged across the floor and work fine. The good ones you drop from 8 inches off the floor and somehow they get a nick in them that makes them useless..
I have no problem with a CD being in the drive for copy protection. I have a feeling this game exploded way beyond the original intentions of time and effort. These guys have worked so hard on this they deserve every penny they get.

Bob

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 13
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:23:46 PM   
Jaypea

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/29/2004
From: New Jersey, USA
Status: offline 		I have two young kids and while I am at work these things can happen. Especially if I forget and leave the disk in the CD drive. I come home and find it on the floor will jelly finger prints all over it.

(in reply to emorbius44)
Post #: 14
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:33:07 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I have two young kids and while I am at work these things can happen. Especially if I forget and leave the disk in the CD drive. I come home and find it on the floor will jelly finger prints all over it.


I guess the morale of the story is put the cd away *above* the height of your kids when not in front of your computer. I could say the very same thing about leaving kitchen knives on your computer desk for the kids to play with. You wouldn't do that so why do the other.

Again, these fall into the catagory of user neglect, hardly Matrix's fault and certainly not a warranty issue.

(in reply to Jaypea)
Post #: 15
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:38:46 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

I believe a lot fo people had trouble with the UV disk after the 2.30 patch. The solution many people posted was to use it in another drive. I think some of the DVD-rom drives (which also can play CDs, of course) were not able to read it.


This is exactly what I am talking about. You happen to have one of those substandard CD drives that has problems reading the digital fingerprint off the disk. You will also have problems with a lot of other copy protected games as well.

It is really not Matrix's fault that your CD does not follow orange book standards. Complain to the guy who sold it to you or replace it with a $50 one that does follow standards. No DVD drives have this problem, it is only an issue with super cheap OEM CD drives. Technically, your CD is broken. Matrix can not support people with broken CD drives as the requirement for a functional CD drive is clearly spelled out in the software requirements.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 16
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 5:51:21 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		Copy protection is Frag's animated combat. You make an illegal copy and a cat and mouse show up to pummel you.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 17
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:05:58 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Copy protection is Frag's animated combat. You make an illegal copy and a cat and mouse show up to pummel you.


Wouldn't that be nice? Too bad they can't simply destroy your computer like some of my old routines where I played a song with your hard disk heads seeking them against the track 0 stop until it finally snapped off

Did I mention that I find pirates to be the lowest order of scum of the earth? People who steal should be treated by the old school rules ... chop their hand off!

There *is* no excuse that makes it acceptable. All this crap about *rights* is exactly that ... *crap*. You have one *right* and only one. Keep your money in your pocket when in the store and say "no". Should you not exercise that "right", you have no others.

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 18
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:10:11 PM   
tiredoftryingnames


Posts: 1919
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Status: offline 		And from the soapbox that was Mr. Frag. Next in the speaking order is Metallica discussing "The Evils of Downloading Music".

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 19
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:10:25 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.



on a lighthearded note. My old 1980's era 5.25 inch floppies for my Atari 400/800 ddid not start going bad until 2003, and even then the majority of them still functioned correctly.

I've never had a CD go bad or "wear out" yet.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 20
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:40:33 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

And from the soapbox that was Mr. Frag.


Seriously, I get so pissed off when people come up with these *lame* excuses for not wanting copy protection. It's like *they* think we are all stupid and were born yesterday.

(in reply to tiredoftryingnames)
Post #: 21
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:44:32 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		"But Mr. Frag, me and my buds all share around our music for free, how is a game any different? Why should we pay for it if we can get it free?"
</sarcasm>

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/4/2004 12:20:26 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:46:15 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Did I mention that I find pirates to be the lowest order of scum of the earth? People who steal should be treated by the old school rules ... chop their hand off!


How very 'Taliban' of you.

quote:


There *is* no excuse that makes it acceptable. All this crap about *rights* is exactly that ... *crap*. You have one *right* and only one. Keep your money in your pocket when in the store and say "no". Should you not exercise that "right", you have no others.


Actually, copywrite laws in this country have become very skewed towards major corporations in the past 10 years or so. The laws on the duration of copyrites was extended recently when Disney was about to lose the copywrite on its characters. There used to be such a thing as 'fair use' but coporations have been chipping away at that over the years. Their eventual goal is where you own nothing oftheproduct but only license 'uses' of it. They tried this with the music industry about a decade ago with the Divx scheme.

Companies should be able to enjoy a period of time after releasing thier product where they have exclusive control over it and get all ofthe profits. After that period of time, it should become public domain and allow others to copy or modify it. This is how life-saving medicines work. Why shouldwe give more protection to Sony music industries than we do to a company that is inventing life-saving medicine? Too many of our poilitians have been bough off by the fat cat corporations. The "Digital Millinium Copyrite Act" should be ripped up and the people who authored it should be publicly hung!!

quote:

This is exactly what I am talking about. You happen to have one of those substandard CD drives that has problems reading the digital fingerprint off the disk. You will also have problems with a lot of other copy protected games as well.


Actually, I paid quite a bit for my DVD-drive and I don't consider it substandard. It never had a problem reading the UV disk until version 2.30. I don't know what they did in that version but something messed it up. Currently I use the no-cd patch as a workaround.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 23
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:47:02 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

"But Mr. Frag, me and my buds all share around our music for free, how is a game any different? Why should we pay for it if we can get it free?"


So, can I *share* your wife?

Whats the difference eh? Where do you draw the line? Perhaps I can come *share* your car for a joyride. How about I share your Credit Card number? How about your bank account number and password?

After all, it's only sharing right?

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 24
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:51:18 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, I paid quite a bit for my DVD-drive and I don't consider it substandard. It never had a problem reading the UV disk until version 2.30. I don't know what they did in that version but something messed it up. Currently I use the no-cd patch as a workaround.


I feel for you that you were ripped off with your DVD drive, but that does not change the fact that you were ripped off. If it supported the orange book standards, it would play the CD just dandy like the thousands of us who had no problem with 2.30's upgraded SecureRom protection.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 25
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 6:58:12 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

"But Mr. Frag, me and my buds all share around our music for free, how is a game any different? Why should we pay for it if we can get it free?"
</sarcasm>


So, can I *share* your wife?

Whats the difference eh? Where do you draw the line? Perhaps I can come *share* your car for a joyride. How about I share your Credit Card number? How about your bank account number and password?

After all, it's only sharing right?

That was a, I say that was a joke, son.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/4/2004 12:21:18 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 26
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 7:09:13 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline 		Hm...i bet you can´t stop piracy...

one side could say saw of their fingers (are you an Taliban ? Hey, Marines, here is one of these .... BANG... and Mr. Frag left this continuum to visit an higher level ) because they steal others say everything should be free (okay, give me your money, i share it with you Damien Thorn)

Honestly, if you want something, you have to buy it. But - like FarCry, a demo you can test the game is perfect. I tested the game and i will buy it (in a few months if it is cheaper)

A game like WITP will be copied often, but the people who just copy it will not pay it - so they are no loss.
The total bs about licence.... if i give money for a product i want the right to use it as often as i want. Also i say, if these terrorists from Microsoft and other companies who give a **** about workable or stability want money from me, they have to do some work. I buy a product, not an alpha version.

In a few years you not longer will own your own things, but you will licence them... and if this licence is run out, you are a criminal.... that make me sad and angry.

So please do not mix the criminals (the people who crack a software, sell it or wouldn´t buy a progam) with the collectors... they collect anything but would never buy one part of it (yes, it is criminal, and yes, it isn´t right that they own things they hadn´t paid for, but they have not the money and the will to buy for example the game so they do not damage the profit of a company.

in earlier years i tested a lot games, but even as a kid i bought the games i liked (nearly all gg-games, even if they were allways quite expensive!) because they had depht and a long playable time...

today a game has 40 hours of time to play, 30.000 bugs, 14 patches before you could play it and next to cool graphic nothing worth to look for... i wouldn´t buy such games - 15 years ago, i had bought some such games (i was tricked (yeah i am a stupid guy) but i learned).

I think for a game like UV or WitP, the people work such a long time, it is okay to give money and not to trick. The big companies who throw in just bad progammed games with so much bugs you can´t play it, i feel not sorry.

And if these companies try to punish the right of owning things, i fight against em (i never bought a music cd after they started their campagin a few years ago - sometimes i get one for christmess or similar, but no money from me for these .... errr selfcensored. The same with Microsoft. I use only such products i got for nothing/that were in a package of my new computer... from me no extra cent for them)

But honestly, if Matrix want to protect its rights i understand and accept it. As long as the performance does not suffer it is okay...
i suggest that everybody MUST be logged as a poster and has to recive a special number (that is locked to the person). If someone break the rule, he will be named offical here and some of the guys who were at the marines visit the pirate (so everybody is happy and Mr. Frag could chop off some heads (instead of fingers)

Peace brothers....

i just want the game... just say how much.

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 27
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 7:13:51 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Why do we copy protect or have copyright laws? To insure artists, scientist or others.. book writers the list goes on and on... to insure these people they receive the reward of the labor. One at a time... seemed to be the rule for years... I purchased one book, movie etc.. and I could do with as I deemed fit. Make a copy for myself only.. keeping the original safe was the gray area... I had actually bought the "right" what about photocopying a college text for two weeks worth of work... and then destroying it? Well, it was a violation of the law, but not the intent. My University bought multiple copies of a book, and my use of the paper copy was limited and permanently ended after the use.. often days after. OK so did I break the spirit of the law? Now fast forward from 80's to 2004, and we see wholesale pirating by use of a digital medium where I could easily, and illegally share repeatedly a song, book, movie etc without paying for my "use".

Does this violate the spirit (or intent for those out there that dislike the term)????
My take is.." absolutely".. to say this makes big fat cats rich... welcome to the free market. Where those who risk creating a protected item have a risk/reward payoff. So I do take exception to the "we all share" statement above... But if you Bought a copy and lent that ..and then had no access while it was used.. again you paid for the use of ok enough

Please support matrix and 2by 3 today so we can have these types of games tomorrow

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 28
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 7:16:12 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Stale comment now maybe, but Xargon..

"But a copy doesn't always work when they want the CD in the drive."

My definition of copy is, if it IS a copy, then it WILL play exactly like the REAL thing. Otherwise you did NOT copy the cd at all.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 29
RE: WitP Copy Protection - 6/4/2004 7:49:06 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.


The customer relation skills are... interesting.

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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Post #: 30
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