RE: Truth and Consequences

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> RE: Truth and Consequences

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RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/20/2005 12:53:28 AM

ColFrost

Posts: 145
Joined: 10/29/2003
From: South St Paul, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Who cares if Luskan lied or not? Raverdave has and it's not like it's not allowed to lie on a public AAR.

Actually, I've already partly addressed that question, but here goes for a more detailed explanation: These are, as you pointed out, public AAR's. You can't claim that "he lies, so I can lie", because many of the readers are not liars. Even more important, these forums are here for a reason. Granted, they're fun, but they also perform a valuable service to the wargaming community by offering tips on gameplay, showing why history was or was not what could be expected, and detecting bugs. This last is a very subtle but important function. Example: when Gary Grigsby's "North Atlantic '86" came out, it seemed to me that NATO fighters where not firing missiles at the rate they should. I called SSI on it, and they told me the numbers were right. Some time later when I managed to read the source code, I found that missile launches were good if only one aircraft type at a base had missiles, but if there were a mix such as Eagles and Tomcats, the missile expenditure counter got messed up.

To sum up, psychological warfare is best carried on through e-mail. Accurate reporting makes a public forum much more valuable.

But this an AAR, not a "there's a technical problem" thread. This is for entertainment purposes, and to give ideas on how to run things.

We should be grateful that they are bothering to post at all, and keep us entertained, rather then demand something both accurate and scholarly.

Besides, if you think your opponent will be telling you the entire truth in any communication while the game is still going on, you are fooling yourself. I've seen email replies that are so misleading in every single one of my PBEM games. I'd rather see Luskan and RaverDave post as they have been, rather then have it accurate, and therefore, boring.

_____________________________

...the bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding go out and meet it.

-Thucydides

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 1021

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/20/2005 1:17:14 AM

ZekeNY

Posts: 24
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

Hey, the lying and the insults are what make this AAR so much fun to read! And they post the combat reports accurately enough (I think), so anyone who needs to gather data should be OK.

(in reply to ColFrost)

Post #: 1022

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/20/2005 1:26:08 AM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Political 'softies' that hasn't read Luskans AARs before..have to assimilate to the Borg or redirect to this link: www.disney.com

Great AAR guys! I'm reading most of the posts via email. Congrats on passing 50k views - both yours and my game are playing through January 1943 now...interesting.

Good shot with the KB Luskan. A powerful KB can't be ignored, not even in 1944. Surprise can turn the odds around faster than you can say bollocks!
Need a pretty good lead into 43 in order to hold back the tsunamies of 44 though.

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to ZekeNY)

Post #: 1023

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/20/2005 3:27:38 AM

madflava13

Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline

I concur re: the misinformation campaign. All my PBEMs have some level of it going on and I don't see a need for the AAR threads to remove that. There's more than enough people on this forum to locate and identify bugs without forcing these guys to do it in their threads as well.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 1024

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/20/2005 4:39:22 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Anyone who has read the AARs that Luskan and I have posted since the days of UV will be aware that we use the AAR forum as a way of speading dis-information. Both of us are comfortable with this and in the end that is what counts. This AAR was started when the game was still in beta and was solely for the purpose of entertaining and generating excitment prior to the game's release rather than for any "techincal" considerations.

It is amazing as to how fast the IJN can gain the upper hand in a single battle, such as the CV clash that has just happened. It is kinda like a reverse Midway. One can only guess what the consequences of such a huge loss would have been in real life. No doubt a few heads would have rolled to appease the public/political out cry. Lucky for me it is not modelled in this game

so I just have to move on and fight the war.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to madflava13)

Post #: 1025

Wake shall be mine ! - 7/20/2005 8:49:40 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Ok guys, I've been running the numbers and conferring with the politicians and admirals and I can now state that by the end of September'43 Wake Is will once again be in allied hands as well as that I will even go further and say that if Luskan attemps to disrupt the invasion then it will be at the cost of over half of his fleet CVs.

I am so confident of this victory that I will bare my arse on this board if I fail ! Note that the current game time is the 25th of Jan'43 so I have some six months in which to pull it off.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1026

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/20/2005 1:38:41 PM

wobbly

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline

Bloody hell - I'm pray'n for you mate. No way I want to see your hairy moon taking up valuable real estate on the boards!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1027

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/20/2005 1:59:12 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

I am so confident of this victory that I will bare my arse on this board if I fail !

Don't even JOKE about that, Raver!!!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1028

Operation Custard - 7/20/2005 5:15:41 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

One post from Raver and already there are people offering bribes to me to throw the game . . .

Most important rule in WITP PBEM games - NEVER try to pull the same trick twice on the same opponent if it worked the first time. Especially if that opponent is mad enough to remember it. Raver has a long memory.

As far as invasion forces go - Raver's problem is a simple one. Will his CV groups (he'll have them in 2 or 3 tfs - he can't do them all in one 25 CV only tf) stay together? React together? React AWAY from the transports they're protecting from my LBA? Long Range Cap so as to avoid the mine threat (admittedly, Jap mines haven't been real useful yet . . . ).

The invader has many more problems and chances for things to go wrong than the defender.

Especially in the condense vs spread out argument. KB is wasted in the one place in the early game, and I covered the entire map with my CV tfs for most of this one - but when my whole Reserve fleet Tf + 2 CVs which had been refitting in port got wiped out in the first CV battle of the game, I made a decision to condense. Now I have a temporary upper hand, I'm dispersing my CVs again.

Why? Because I can't compete with 25 CVs. But with a bit of luck I can blast some troops and supplies being moved into position prior to the invasion beginning. Any base forces I can drown are worth double points - Operation Custard has been on the drawing board for OVER 8 MONTHS now and unfortunately I have not got the guts to try it. If I win just one more big engagement (hopefully a surface combat battle that wounds a bit of Raver's firepower) then I'll give it a green light.

Does anyone remember when Raver loaded every Jap unit on the UV grand campaign scenario on turn 1, sent all those troops and transports to Townsville in about september 1942?? Well, Operation Custard is an end run - but nothing like that.

PzB - I've been lurking on your AAR for a while now - keeps me interested because things in your AAR have never turned out as I expected (which is also why I've never posted those opinions!!!).

All I have to compute is not whether or not I can stop Raver, but whether I can bear the cost. Like with Fiji earlier on - I could have tried to defend it but in the end it would have cost more than it was worth. Pull my troops out and move on.

I do have a few divisions coming into the OOB soon, so one of the smaller, greener ones might fill Wake nicely . . .

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 1029

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/20/2005 5:37:23 PM

duckenf

Posts: 189
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Ok guys, I've been running the numbers and conferring with the politicians and admirals and I can now state that by the end of September'43 Wake Is will once again be in allied hands as well as that I will even go further and say that if Luskan attemps to disrupt the invasion then it will be at the cost of over half of his fleet CVs.

I am so confident of this victory that I will bare my arse on this board if I fail ! Note that the current game time is the 25th of Jan'43 so I have some six months in which to pull it off.

I'd call that about eight months (disinformation?), but probably an accurate prediction with all those carriers coming on-line.

I always read the AAR commentary as if it is a public Tokyo Rose/Allied Propaganda broadcast -- although I do expect a generally accurate battle summary when posted. But other than that, the "radio broadcasts" make it all the more entertaining, especially when all the major allied CVs get sunk as a result!

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1030

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/21/2005 3:04:50 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Just set a move back off to Luskan......in which I set up some movements that will be able to be put into action next turn.....that is going to be a real wake-up call for him

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to duckenf)

Post #: 1031

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/22/2005 12:43:25 PM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Seems finally I've got the production side of this game right.

I planned to be a strong mid-game jap player (no point trying to be a stong late game jap palyer) aircraft industry wise. I have used about 100 kates vals and 1000 zeros so far from the pool this game.

I have 1000 kates, vals, a6m2s, a6m3s in the pool ready to go. Means I can safely say that production can slowly switch to more recent models. More tonies and oscars to replace the nates for example (or the more exotic aircraft I flat didn't bother with. Some jap transports have about the same range as a good rifle . . .).

Plenty of level bombers, and plenty of long range search float planes (the jap's best ASW and anti ship search weapon are the Mavis/emily combination).

Other games I've got to this point and REALLY regretted tooling with things at the start. this game I was much more gentle with my indsutry, only expanding a few key industries, my 5 main repair ports were expanded pretty consistently to their present huge size (need a minimum of five ports with 250+ size repair facilities).

With the repairs it is very necessary as Japan to cut down the turnaround - especially for your big ships. Having an empty port with a huge repair industry means there can be 600 or so repair points just waiting to be used on the first ship that docks.

Tips for Jap players:

Isolate large ships from small ships in repair ports. 1 BB in port seems to repair much faster than 1 BB and 10 slightly damaged DDs etc. For the same reason keep your transports seperate.

Keep your repair ports well stocked.

Do not - repeat - do not use your CVs without consistant refit and repair. You can rack up 12 sys damage on a jap CV in no time. That is about 10% off your speed, which therefore makes you 10% easier for bombers and torpedo planes easier to hit. Make sense?????

Raver flexed some firepower at Rabaul. Very glad I evacuated everything worth saving before this stage. 4th fleet HQ for example.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to ColFrost)

Post #: 1032

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/22/2005 2:59:45 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Ok Ladies and Gents, I just sent off the turn that will rock Luskan's high command to it's very core. I have positioned and ordered two bomber groups to start hitting the DEI oil fields ! And I am not just talking of Abonia (which is a smoking wreak) but I am going to hit the Island of Java itself! This will come as a hugh shock to Luskan and within six months I will have very nearly shut down ALL of the oil coming out of the DEI. This means that Japan will be going into 1944 with China as it's ONLY source of oil.
Luskan has been crowing about how clever he is with his ship repair facilities and the number of airframes....well they all will not be worth a pitch of batshite with out oil. And if Luskan chooses to fight the airspace over these oil fields? Well just bring it on banana skin !

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 1033

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/22/2005 6:35:55 PM

EUBanana

Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

I am so confident of this victory that I will bare my arse on this board if I fail ! Note that the current game time is the 25th of Jan'43 so I have some six months in which to pull it off.

Dear god, I pray for your success then, old boy...

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1034

RE: Wake shall be mine ! - 7/22/2005 7:57:31 PM

Guderon

Posts: 132
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

I am so confident of this victory that I will bare my arse on this board if I fail ! Note that the current game time is the 25th of Jan'43 so I have some six months in which to pull it off.

Dear god, I pray for your success then, old boy...

Yeah, I was pretty much neutral in who I was rooting for in this game until now, but suddenly I have a rather large incentive to hope that Dave does well.....

(in reply to EUBanana)

Post #: 1035

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/22/2005 10:21:59 PM

Capt. Harlock

Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline

quote:

This will come as a hugh shock to Luskan and within six months I will have very nearly shut down ALL of the oil coming out of the DEI. This means that Japan will be going into 1944 with China as it's ONLY source of oil.

A very good strategic play if you can pull it off. Remember that Sumatra's oil reserves are even greater than Java's, and shutting down those areas will not be easy.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1036

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/23/2005 5:13:44 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Raver has finally figured out how to use the allied air power. Rather than 1 200 heavy bomber raid over 1 airbase (which I pack with all my flak and fighters) he's spreading his effort out. This means I probably can't ever defend all the spots he can hit.

Was a nasty shock. I'll be moving to put a stop to this pretty soon.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 1037

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/23/2005 6:34:37 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

To cover the threat to the DEI oilfields, Luskan is going to have to send a lot of fighter units and AA units. These units would have been in use on Islands or even in Rangoon.
The other thing that Luskan could do is try and either bombard the airbases from which the LRBs are operating (which I hope he does try as I have ****loads of CDs and mines just waiting such a move) or an even more bald move such as counter invasion of Timor. Of course he could try and use his LRB to bomb my airfields, but with swarms of Spitfires waiting for such a chance, I don't think he will. (Plus there is the fact that I have bombed the cr@p out of most of the good near by airfields).

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/27/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lanchow , at 45,25

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 5

Allied aircraft
I-153c x 21
SB-2c x 35

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153c: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
SB-2c: 5 damaged

Oil hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
6 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
2 x SB-2c bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Balikpapan , at 31,64 The Oilfields will be next!
Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Soerabaja , at 22,65

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 32

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 7 damaged

Oil hits 9 OIL HITS 9 !

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Beaufighter Mk 21 x 4
F-5A Lightning x 1
B-25C Mitchell x 8
B-26B Marauder x 132

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 5 destroyed
H8K Emily: 3 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 110

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
29 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
40 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
43 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 6000 feet

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 1038

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/23/2005 6:38:12 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

This will come as a hugh shock to Luskan and within six months I will have very nearly shut down ALL of the oil coming out of the DEI. This means that Japan will be going into 1944 with China as it's ONLY source of oil.

A very good strategic play if you can pull it off. Remember that Sumatra's oil reserves are even greater than Java's, and shutting down those areas will not be easy.

Yeah Sumatra is out of my reach for the moment, but Borneo and Java are in range

I am about to launch a huge submarine offensive around Sumatra as this is the main area that Luskan will be desperatly trying to drain of oil down to the last drop.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)

Post #: 1039

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/23/2005 8:39:54 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Or, I could use the fact that I have 20+ suitable airfields in range, while Raver only has 3, put a pair of base forces in each, with 1 squadron of betties each, and sink every bloody transport that goes into Timor.

Raver doesn't get the fact that thing repair. Slowly sometimes, but they do. E.g. Ambiona. 100%. Kendari. 100%. Bombing has to be consistent. If he put 30 LRBs over 5 airfields every turn for 40 turns - THEN they wouldn't repair. E.g. Rabaul.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1040

RE: Truth and Consequences - 7/23/2005 2:08:00 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Luskan makes a pathetic attemp to try and stop supplies reaching Timour and launches 14 LRBs only to be met with Spitfires and even a couple of Beaufighters over the skies of Lautem. So much for his vaunted "experten" Betties. They loose three of their number and the rest drop their loads without even attempting a run at the ships then flee for home.
In other news the USS Arizona finally rejoins the fleet today after nearly 14 months of repairs. She is the last of the ships that were hit on December the seventh to leave the docks (and was one of the worse hit). Her Captain reports that her crew is itching to get back in the fight and "kill some japs".

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/28/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Lautem at 33,78

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vb x 10
Beaufighter VIC x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vb: 1 damaged
Beaufighter VIC: 2 damaged

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Luskan)

Post #: 1041

The real truth ! - 7/23/2005 3:16:05 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Here I am with an example of one of the fighters that slapped Luskans' betties.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1042

RE: The real truth ! - 7/23/2005 3:32:41 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

HEY! You promised you wouldn't expose your backside unless you couldn't take Wake!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1043

RE: The real truth ! - 7/23/2005 3:56:13 PM

Panzer76

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Here I am with an example of one of the fighters that slapped Luskans' betties.

I think you actually put that helmet on when you play WiTP. Come to think of it, I hope you ONLY put that helmet on when you play WiTP..

_____________________________

Cheers,
Panzer

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1044

RE: The real truth ! - 7/23/2005 4:02:46 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

The helmet is only worn when the shells are falling.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Panzer76)

Post #: 1045

RE: The real truth ! - 7/23/2005 8:41:01 PM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Here I am with an example of one of the fighters that slapped Luskans' betties.

Raver,
That doesn't look like an actually model, but a molded plastic toy. Is that an Aussie manufacturer? Where did you get it?

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1046

RE: The real truth ! - 7/24/2005 4:10:52 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

@ The Elf

It is actually a 1/48 diecast model made by"Armour". I have seven of these now all in 1/48.
Spitfire
SBD
F4U
P-51
P-38
Me 109
B-25

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to TheElf)

Post #: 1047

RE: The real truth ! - 7/24/2005 4:19:19 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

As long as Raver doesn't post a picture of him wearing ONLY the helmet I guess we can stand it.

_____________________________

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1048

RE: The real truth ! - 7/24/2005 4:31:48 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Here I am re-building my shattered CV fleet. You can see that I am working on a new Essex class CV.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1049

RE: The real truth ! - 7/24/2005 4:36:51 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Here I am gaining some inspiration !

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 1050

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