RE: Rail and road movement

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Rail and road movement

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RE: Rail and road movement - 6/14/2004 11:18:44 PM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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"A better class of road"? Take the family vehicle out and drive it down the RR tracks
a couple miles if you think that...., then go have the springs, shocks, and undercarriage
repaired.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 61

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/14/2004 11:24:06 PM

Feinder

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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
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To give you an idea of the difficulty of traversing the Kokoda Trail (the link between PM and Buna)...

Kokoda Trail Part 1
Kokoda Trail Part 2

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Post #: 62

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/14/2004 11:27:25 PM

Mr.Frag

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Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

"A better class of road"? Take the family vehicle out and drive it down the RR tracks
a couple miles if you think that...., then go have the springs, shocks, and undercarriage
repaired.

Rail lines unlike little road tend to have a cleared right of way around them. Who said anything about driving? They also tend to go in a fairly straight line and be of fairly level grade unlike roads.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 63

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/14/2004 11:34:23 PM

GameTester

Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

"A better class of road"? Take the family vehicle out and drive it down the RR tracks
a couple miles if you think that...., then go have the springs, shocks, and undercarriage
repaired.

Rail lines unlike little road tend to have a cleared right of way around them. Who said anything about driving? They also tend to go in a fairly straight line and be of fairly level grade unlike roads.

As I understand it, units can travel 180 miles a day on rail. They are not walking that fast, they must either drive or use trains. Maybe the broken rails concept used in TOAW can be added to make this more realistic.

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Post #: 64

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 12:09:05 AM

Mr.Frag

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From: Purgatory
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quote:

As I understand it, units can travel 180 miles a day on rail. They are not walking that fast, they must either drive or use trains. Maybe the broken rails concept used in TOAW can be added to make this more realistic.

<chuckle>

Divide that by two. Manual is being corrected. The table listed day numbers but said phase numbers.

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Post #: 65

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 12:26:33 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

As I understand it, units can travel 180 miles a day on rail. They are not walking that fast, they must either drive or use trains. Maybe the broken rails concept used in TOAW can be added to make this more realistic.

<chuckle>

Divide that by two. Manual is being corrected. The table listed day numbers but said phase numbers.

The troops aren't making 90 miles/day by putting 'boots on the ground.' Not even Stonewall Jackson's foot cavalry could sustain such a pace. They're either taking a train, or riding in vehicles along the rail right-of-way.

Are there any restrictions on this? Anything in the rules about rail capacity or requiring engineers to repair captured rail & rolling stock? or is any unit that reaches a rail hex assumed to be able to hitchhike a ride on the next passing train and travel 90 miles per day?

[I work in the U.S. Department of Transportation. These are important questions!]

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 6/14/2004 10:27:29 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 12:34:24 AM

GameTester

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

As I understand it, units can travel 180 miles a day on rail. They are not walking that fast, they must either drive or use trains. Maybe the broken rails concept used in TOAW can be added to make this more realistic.

<chuckle>

Divide that by two. Manual is being corrected. The table listed day numbers but said phase numbers.

Well, that seems a lot more reasonable but rail appears to have been simplified for WiTP. Capturing pieces of railroad track and having a fully operational railroad network are two different things. It might work better this way, I'll yield to the designers judgment here.

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Post #: 67

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 12:41:24 AM

GameTester

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

The troops aren't making 90 miles/day by putting 'boots on the ground.' Not even Stonewall Jackson's foot cavalry could sustain such a pace. They're either taking a train, or riding in vehicles along the rail right-of-way.

I believe Jackson's foot cavalry did 50 miles in 2 days once which was considered a great achievement at the time.

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Post #: 68

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 1:13:24 AM

Blackhorse

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From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GAMETESTER
I believe Jackson's foot cavalry did 50 miles in 2 days once which was considered a great achievement at the time.

Twice, actually, (en route to Second Bull Run, and again in the Shenandoah). The best feat of Civil War marching that I am aware of is Francis Herron and his two divisions hoofing it to Prairie Grove (an 1862 battle in Arkansas).

"Herron . . . received Blunt's message on December 3 and put his 7,000 men on the road early the next morning. During the next three and one half days Herron's two divisions marched 110 miles across the Ozark Plateau�an average of thirty miles per day. Some units covered the final sixty-five miles in only thirty hours. It was the most extraordinary forced march of the Civil War. Not every soldier could maintain such a grueling pace, and the Union column dwindled as the hours passed, but by dawn on December 7 the vanguard of Herron's command was in Fayetteville, only eighteen miles from Cane Hill."

But even they couldn't march 90 miles a day!

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 6/14/2004 11:14:13 PM >

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Post #: 69

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 1:48:33 AM

GameTester

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Twice, actually, (en route to Second Bull Run, and again in the Shenandoah). The best feat of Civil War marching that I am aware of is Francis Herron and his two divisions hoofing it to Prairie Grove (an 1862 battle in Arkansas).

"Herron . . . received Blunt's message on December 3 and put his 7,000 men on the road early the next morning. During the next three and one half days Herron's two divisions marched 110 miles across the Ozark Plateau�an average of thirty miles per day. Some units covered the final sixty-five miles in only thirty hours. It was the most extraordinary forced march of the Civil War. Not every soldier could maintain such a grueling pace, and the Union column dwindled as the hours passed, but by dawn on December 7 the vanguard of Herron's command was in Fayetteville, only eighteen miles from Cane Hill."

But even they couldn't march 90 miles a day!

That was some forced march! I think WiTP's 90 miles per day for rail is basically an average for all situations that occured. Historically units went both faster or slower than this depending on the circumstances. The designers have decided to simplify this by using the average movement rate rather than model rail in a more detailed manner.

(in reply to Blackhorse)

Post #: 70

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 9:40:05 AM

Radzy

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Warsaw, Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Divide that by two. Manual is being corrected. The table listed day numbers but said phase numbers.

It doesn't seem right, as you can drive 180miles/day on the rail (and maybe even more).
What do You think about the idea of rail capacity for every zone (country)? It would be the number of transportation points, which could be spared to transport troops/supplies via rail.

To simplify any other unit wanting to go using the rail path when the Rail Transport Points would be exceeded, would move as it was on regular road. This seems to be more fair than dividing speed or sth. Or maybe some button on the units screen (Move via rail)?

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Post #: 71

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 1:15:21 PM

DoomedMantis

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From: Sydney, Australia
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Just to clarify, its 90 miles on rail and 30 on road, not 180 and 60.

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Post #: 72

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 2:42:57 PM

tsimmonds

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quote:

What do You think about the idea of rail capacity for every zone (country)? It would be the number of transportation points, which could be spared to transport troops/supplies via rail.

To simplify any other unit wanting to go using the rail path when the Rail Transport Points would be exceeded, would move as it was on regular road. This seems to be more fair than dividing speed or sth. Or maybe some button on the units screen (Move via rail)?

THis is exactly how it was modeled in the boardgame War in the Pacific. Each country had a railcap, and a rail center (or two or three). Capture the rail center and the railcap belonged to you. If the railcap was 100 you could use it to move 5 load points 20 hexes, or 20 load points 5 hexes, or whatever.

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Post #: 73

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 3:04:07 PM

goodwood

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From: Pakenham OZ
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I know it's bit late to change it now, but 90 miles seems a fair bit off the mark for rail movement. Australia Post would move a body troops quicker than that

6 days to to move from Melbourne to Sydney!

Large volumes of troops and materiel were move in Russia and Europe by both sides. At 90 miles a day the germans would have got hungry well before they got to Stalingrad

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Post #: 74

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/15/2004 6:00:28 PM

Damien Thorn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

Just to clarify, its 90 miles on rail and 30 on road, not 180 and 60.

That's per phase I believe. Since there are two phases a day that is where the 180 and 60 come from.

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Post #: 75

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/16/2004 11:55:47 AM

DoomedMantis

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From: Sydney, Australia
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No its per 24 hours. Frag thought it was phase but it is for 24 hours as Joel confirmed

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Post #: 76

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/16/2004 2:03:56 PM

TIMJOT

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OK, do I understand rail movement correctly in that it would be possible for say a Japanese player to start at the Singora Thialand Rail head and travel straight down the Malaya RR at 90miles a day clip? Can he travel through through hexes with Allied troops in them. Does the allied player have any ability to impede by blowing rails or bridges? I think I am fine with RR being treated as better roads in controlled areas like OZ and India but I think its going to be problem in combat areas like Malaya, China, and Luzon.

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Post #: 77

RE: Rail and road movement - 6/16/2004 4:01:41 PM

Mr.Frag

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From: Purgatory
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quote:

OK, do I understand rail movement correctly in that it would be possible for say a Japanese player to start at the Singora Thialand Rail head and travel straight down the Malaya RR at 90miles a day clip? Can he travel through through hexes with Allied troops in them. Does the allied player have any ability to impede by blowing rails or bridges? I think I am fine with RR being treated as better roads in controlled areas like OZ and India but I think its going to be problem in combat areas like Malaya, China, and Luzon.

Speed assumes no fatigue, as unit gets fatigued, speed drops.

No, you can not pass a enemy unit, you must motivate it to move out of your way

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Post #: 78

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Rail and road movement

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