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RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW

 
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RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 1:22:05 AM   
Tenzan


Posts: 101
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline 		One thing I noticed from playing 006 alot..I'm hooked on it, for some reason

Calling the IJN 6th Fleet a Kamikaze unit would be a compliment! at least Kamikazes have the offensive end of dying down pat.

However...I looked at the sub crews and they're pretty much trash..50/55 average. I haven't really seen too many other scenarios, so can't comment there, but, is anyone checking the crew skill?

but...all skill aside, US ASW does appear to be on crack, or at least connected with BALCO...My IJ subs don't usually even get one torp off before the 7 hit and sink special.

< Message edited by Tenzan -- 7/6/2004 5:22:49 PM >

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 31
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 1:39:19 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		ASW - things I think should happen

1. An ASW attack should make the sub run away, it seems way to often the sub just stays in the same place only to be attacked again on the next turn.

2. When a sub is spotted the sub should duck and run, dive and sail away several hexes before is returns.

3. Only one or two ships of an ASW TF should be able to attack a sub. I've seen where every ship in a ASW TF attacked a sub.

4. Subs should be damaged by near misses and try to escape more offen then sunk by direct hits.

(in reply to Tenzan)
Post #: 32
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 4:43:40 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.

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Post #: 33
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:47:32 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
And since we're talking about subs, Japanese sub-fired torps have to high a dud rate if you ask me.. My subs have fired roughly 20 times and 3 have been duds... thats 15% (most have been misses).. Is this historical ? And why when they fire 4 torps if ones a dud, they all are ?
Xargun


Anything close to this rate would be extrordinaraly high for the Japanese in 1941-42.
Their torpedoes (of all types) were some of the best in the world, and the most relaible.
2% would be a much more accurate figure. By 44-45 this changes, as "quality control"
deteriorated with the pressure to expand Japanese output. The US "dud rate" should
be about 50% in 1941-42 due to the faulty torpedoes, drop to about 25% in 43, and to
2% in 44-45---while the Japanese dud rate should climb towards about 20% in 1945

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 34
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:54:49 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
And since we're talking about subs, Japanese sub-fired torps have to high a dud rate if you ask me.. My subs have fired roughly 20 times and 3 have been duds... thats 15% (most have been misses).. Is this historical ? And why when they fire 4 torps if ones a dud, they all are ?
Xargun


Looking into this too. No worries.

Anything close to this rate would be extrordinaraly high for the Japanese in 1941-42.
Their torpedoes (of all types) were some of the best in the world, and the most relaible.
2% would be a much more accurate figure. By 44-45 this changes, as "quality control"
deteriorated with the pressure to expand Japanese output. The US "dud rate" should
be about 50% in 1941-42 due to the faulty torpedoes, drop to about 25% in 43, and to
2% in 44-45---while the Japanese dud rate should climb towards about 20% in 1945


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Post #: 35
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:57:44 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		is this perhaps a fow issue? Are those misses being counted as duds?
just a thought

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 36
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:58:31 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		no, not FOW. Same thing happening to me in my AAR. This one's been tricky to nail down though.

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Post #: 37
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 6:02:06 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I read in the database about all these different types of torps.. could you tell us which types you had problems with or where there several?

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 38
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 6:16:14 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		dont believe it was confined to one torpedo type.

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Post #: 39
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 6:40:47 AM   
doktor1957

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 6/6/2004
Status: offline 		Something I recall from my reading said that when a pressure hull is holed at depth, the atmosphere inside ignites. There is no chance to close wt doors (they should be closed at GQ anyway). The explosion can rip the vessel to shreds.


Dave
San Diego

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 40
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 7:17:49 AM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.


It`s not consistant at all, as other posters have indicated.

In one Campaign Game start as the US VS the AI my ASW surface TF sank 2 Japanese Subs off Pearl on 7 Dec. and damaged another.

In another CG start as US VS the AI I`m up to 1/42 and have got only 3 contacts and have hit or sunk no subs.

Perhaps if all the testers are playing PBEM Scenarios they are seeing different results then those playing the AI.

Having said that, why not let the Game, especially the Campaign Game, get a wider exposure and more playing time, with more folks before the usual downgrading of the US starts up. I mean how can any judgements be made until a number of full Campaigns VS the AI are finished and reported on in the Forums?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 41
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 7:43:05 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.

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Post #: 42
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 7:52:01 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
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From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

is this perhaps a fow issue? Are those misses being counted as duds?
just a thought


Nope. If you watch the combat screen it shows the sub firing... Then either "Torpedoes Miss", "Torpedoes Failed to Detonate" or you get to watch a nice little explosion Definate duds.

Xargun

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 43
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 8:20:25 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I have the screen but not the text probably not seeing it.. thanks again

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 44
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 10:09:54 AM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.


In my testing, air ASW attacks occur less often than in UV. They will hit subs but don't hold your breath while waiting (although I've still managed to create air ASW killing grounds in the right circumstances).

They perform a vital role in detecting the presence of subs in a location and are excellent support for TFs in the area.

The more ASW a/c in the air, the more experienced they are and the shorter the distance flown to the sub, the better the chance of detection. The better the detection level, the more likely a sub will be attacked and hit.

But if you've already taken all this into account for your opinion, fine.

Cheers

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drink more beer.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 45
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 10:18:16 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.


I've seen my patrol planes attack enemy subs a couple different times. I actually got a hit on one sub as well from patrol planes. BUT, they only had their cannons, so not much damage was done.

Xargun

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 46
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 10:52:11 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		my ijn sugs got straffed when they where transiting.. but when "on station" not nearly as frequently it appears

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 47
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 10:56:59 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.


It`s not consistant at all, as other posters have indicated.

In one Campaign Game start as the US VS the AI my ASW surface TF sank 2 Japanese Subs off Pearl on 7 Dec. and damaged another.

In another CG start as US VS the AI I`m up to 1/42 and have got only 3 contacts and have hit or sunk no subs.

Perhaps if all the testers are playing PBEM Scenarios they are seeing different results then those playing the AI.

Having said that, why not let the Game, especially the Campaign Game, get a wider exposure and more playing time, with more folks before the usual downgrading of the US starts up. I mean how can any judgements be made until a number of full Campaigns VS the AI are finished and reported on in the Forums?


Black Cat. The retail version has the same ASW build as the last few Beta Versions. This was not drawn based on a few days playing by new purchasers but by a few months of beta testing. No shot from the hip happening here.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 48
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 1:29:59 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 49
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 1:46:29 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave
.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........
Good advice.

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Post #: 50
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 4:31:13 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.


And don't concentrate in one area, spread the pain. Force him to thin his escorts to protect each convoy etc. Less escorts, less chance to die.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 51
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:26:10 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I'm glad this is being looked at.

Slightly off-topic: I've finally made it to Day Three of the grand campaign (playing as the Allies), and I was interested to see that one of my level bombers actually attacked a submarine along with two other surface ships, and I saw the attack in the combat animations. I don't recall seeing this in UV. Kinda cool.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 52
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:37:10 PM   
riverbravo


Posts: 1320
Joined: 1/16/2003
From: Bay St Louis Ms.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

IJN depth charges seem too accurate as well. But they seem to find subs alot less.
I havnt played the IJN near as much so other will better be able to testify to the effectivness of the IJN side.


I think the IJN depth charging is about right.

Like you said,a lot of times they dont spot the sub in deep water.

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Post #: 53
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 5:54:10 PM   
rawink

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/30/2002
From: Tallahassee, FL
Status: offline 		It has been mentioned that aircraft attacks on SS are useless.

I must put in my own experience so far.. Dutch DO's flying from Java have been hell on the Jap subs around the area. 3 Kills so far and a few damages. 1 was a RO class sub went down from 1 attack. I was impressed.

But, yeah, my ASW TF's are the fist of an angry God right now.. if I send them out like 10DD strong.. subs die.. like stomping a bug dead

(in reply to riverbravo)
Post #: 54
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 6:38:08 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Except for large ASW groups, neither the AI nor my forces have been that good at ASW in my game. Maybe it's just the way the die rolls in my case.

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Post #: 55
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 7:31:46 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I haven't seen any issue with lethality of airbased ASW platforms. Well maybe a little on the low side, but I see hits every couple of turns and have seen one aircraft sink a sub with two hits on the same attack (sub listed as sunk by a 500lb bomb). This may be due to two factors, jusy after the PH raid Hawaii is a target rich environment so I'm getting a lot of chances. And every air unit that's remotely in a condition to fly >40% of the squadron assets undamaged and moral >30% gets switched to ASW patrol at 100%.

Granted compared to the 1-DMS 4-DD Hunter-Killer groups of death the air seems impotent but I think they're closer to the truth than the sea based ASW.

Also if FoW is toggled on I probably shouldn't see the sub name that I'm attacking.

(in reply to kaleun)
Post #: 56
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 7:53:33 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		The problem only exists on the Allied side, particularily if 6+ escorts are used. I ran many many tests on ASW for both Japan and Allied, early and latewar period.

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Post #: 57
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/7/2004 9:26:34 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.


Yes, I think the majority of them are spotted on turn one already.

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 58
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/8/2004 3:58:23 AM   
Jorm


Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline 		Ive had reports of quiet a few hits on japanese subs in the lower left report screen whilst the turn is running
Ive not lost any sunk but i have had 2 damages by japanes a/c and i have 'reportedly' at least attacked a few japanese subs with ASW patrol aircraft

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 59
RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW - 7/8/2004 4:44:37 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Its on the list.

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