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RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit

 
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RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 12:11:07 AM   
Toro


Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
Status: offline 		My thoughts: PTs in open ocean can't attack or spot. Think of it this way -- they have no radar, so I'd think it reasonable to say they cannot engage an enemy in blue water. Sure, they "could" stumble upon a TF, but realistically they would not be used in such a way, so make it a rule.

Side note/thought: as to the historical effectiveness of PTs, can anyone discuss whether this was due to their misuse (not given the opportunity to prove themselves because senior folks did not consider them worthy or effective) or because they were ineffective in combat?

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 31
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 12:14:40 AM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Look I am not sayign you are wrong that there isn't something to be looked at. However sayign that your invasion fleet and a surface force was badly mauled by PT's in a coastal hex, Atoll or not it was restricted waters, is not correct. Atols are differnt I agree but they still how shoals and stuff. Battle lines are not a bunch of power boats, they take a long time to turn, and depending on interval, anywhere from 300 to 1000yards you can't evade torpedoes that effectivly. Blue water and yeah maybe one torpedoe shoudl find a mark, just out of you throw enough at a wall some stick. If you are doing a bombardment you have two choices. You can come in close enough to see teh fall of your shot and adjust on to target, or you can stay out of visual range of the island and fire at coordinates. IF you just stay out and fire at the Island you shoudl be much less effective. If you come in you risk the near shore attacks.

UB

(in reply to MadDawg)
Post #: 32
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 12:39:05 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Toro, Ive read that the US sold all of their PT boats after the war becuase they were not through to be cost effective. Im guessing they found it best to have 1 destroyer than 4 PT boats, but Im sure there is more info out there on this.

Buck, Im not saying it was badly mauled, Im saying it was totally sunk, gone...the Yamato, Musashi, two other BB's, 4 heavy cruisers and 8 destroyers all sunk by PT boats.

All Im asking for is that they operate how they realisticly should as at the moment they seem too potent a weapon. If you can show me a case where the above happened in reality though then hell, Im happy with it as is, hehe. Im pretty sure something if off here though, be it that the PT's are overmodelled or the task force pushed on when it really should have pulled out. My concern isnt particually the above situation though, that was just an example, my concern is them being used in gamey methods which could ruin a game youve been playing for months.

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/20/2004 10:49:41 PM >

(in reply to Toro)
Post #: 33
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 12:52:31 AM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		So what you are saying is that the PT's stalked the Yammato and her sister ship like a bunch of small stalking things, Snuck the crew on board , commandeered the ship, stuck the bow on the rocks and scuttled her, and just for fun set off pyrotechnics to make the Japanese "Think" the PT's sunk them right? Geez, How many torpedo hits did they take? Barring the one in a million shot that is modeled now, both of them should have taken 10+ torpedoes and not gone above 15 Sys barring a critical hit. Man I didn't realize it was as bad as that.
UB

(in reply to MadDawg)
Post #: 34
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 1:01:05 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

So what you are saying is that the PT's stalked the Yammato and her sister ship like a bunch of small stalking things, Snuck the crew on board , commandeered the ship, stuck the bow on the rocks and scuttled her, and just for fun set off pyrotechnics to make the Japanese "Think" the PT's sunk them right? Geez, How many torpedo hits did they take? Barring the one in a million shot that is modeled now, both of them should have taken 10+ torpedoes and not gone above 15 Sys barring a critical hit. Man I didn't realize it was as bad as that.
UB



Huh, what the hell are you on about? Ive read your post several times but Im still not sure what your trying to say here, hehe. We seem to be discussing two different things here and if so it really makes no sense to continue this.

Dawg

< Message edited by MadDawg -- 7/20/2004 11:13:09 PM >

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 35
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 1:27:59 AM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry MadDawg, I was tryign to make fun of the losing BB's to PT's. I thought that you were only damaged, I didn't realize they SANK your battle fleet. i agree that is a bit much. SOme escorts a couple hits in BB's and CA's ok. Sinking the whole thing, no way.

I agree with you.

UB

(in reply to MadDawg)
Post #: 36
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 1:38:09 AM   
MadDawg

 

Posts: 374
Joined: 6/24/2004
Status: offline 		Hehe, no worries Buck. I do agree with you that ships in restricted waters should be more vulnerable bythe way....but something just didnt seem right here. Maybe its just that the Japanese commander should have pulled out instead of powering on ?

Dawg

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 37
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 2:03:09 AM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Maybe teh Marines shouyld get teh PT boat crew training. I mean what 7 guys takign out a 1400 man crew WHew imagine those fights for Wake now ! The most feared sound of teh Japanese Navy. US Captain"Prepare boarding Party!"

(in reply to MadDawg)
Post #: 38
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 2:40:44 AM   
Tenzan


Posts: 101
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline 		I still think the main and only issue with PT's is that (I assume for size/class reasons) PT boats begin a combat round at 5,000m in open and 2,000m in costal/atoll hexes. Given that range is a big factor in hits and misses the indicated starting range brings up some real problems:

a) How is it that PT's would be able to close to such a range to begin with, and

b)How they'd survive long enough to commence any meaningful offensive operations.

That's IN range of 13mm AAMG's, 25MM AAC's, it's at boresite (0 deg. elevation) range for all 'secondaries' -3"-5"-a near miss of which would easily do in a PT craft..

Starting them at a range they could NEVER get to IRL gives them a huge, huge, gamey advantage....This is what needs to change, or the current 'problem' will never be eliminated.

(in reply to Toro)
Post #: 39
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 2:45:02 AM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The PT's are low to the water and unless they are throwign up lots of spray woudl be hard to spot 'till they are very close. Just an idea. There DL might be very low.

(in reply to Tenzan)
Post #: 40
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 2:55:42 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		The PTs were a good close-quarter boat. They were good at suppressing small arms on beaches. They would run up and down the shore nailing enemy MG positions with their .50s.

The part that scared the boat drivers was the launching of the torps. You only fired one at a time and there was a certain meneuver needed after launch to keep from running over your own torp. The Japanese figured the meneuver thing out and would target for it.

They did most of their ops at night...night was their friend.

I do agree about the PTs having some kind of deepwater penalty.

They already react on their own from ports, make this their normal ops mode. How the boats are accounted for in the ship listing, I have no idea how that would be handled. Just make it a 'base controlled' TF so to speak.

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army


(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 41
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 2:57:43 AM   
Tenzan


Posts: 101
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure that engagement range is dictated by the type of units involved-A sort of lowest common denominator of ship class, IIRC..

If it was detection level, it'd really be funny, as in my test scenario, my Surface opposing force has radar :)


Another odd thing, btw-PT boats will pepper surface forces with .5 MG fire and the like, but, Warships won't respond in kind? Only Main or Secondary battery fire...The 25mm batteries are just hanging out watching? sheesh...they'd saw up the attack singlehandedly..

< Message edited by Tenzan -- 7/20/2004 7:01:36 PM >

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 42
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 6:01:37 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Let's look at a "best case scenario". Say you've got 40 PT boats in a coastal hex. A Japanese SCTF is going to pass through the hex. The SCTF is spotted, its composition is known: 2BB, 1CA, 4DD. It has undergone a carrier strike, some of the ships are damaged. It is passing through the hex at night. The PTs should mop up. Right?

Wrong. IRL, Surigao strait. The PTs made many torpedo runs over a period of two or three hours, lost a handful of their own in exchange for one single torp hit on a DD to show for their trouble. PTs are good vs barges; vs major warships, on a normal night they just could not get close enough to be effective.

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(in reply to Tenzan)
Post #: 43
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 6:18:15 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Irrelevant....

Didn't they also get a torp hit on the Abukuma coming through later? (although, I completely agree with what you've said. PT's should only get very rare torp hits on warships)

I can't remember if it was the PT's or the DD's who crippled the Abukuma.

bc

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 44
RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit - 7/21/2004 6:38:13 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Bradley, good call.

Abukuma was indeed struck by a torpedo, fired by a PT at a DD, which had missed its intended target.

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(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 45
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