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RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 8:47:33 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

So why complain?

It is something that is done, complaining of it will not do anything,
so why in first place moan about such?

Because if people don't speak up for what they feel and want, nothing will change, you think the whole world got where it is today without complaints being a major factor of it? Shall I go back to "sweat shops" and working little boys and girls hard labor for 10 cents a day? Change comes by complaining. Hopefully Matrix will notice my complaint and see that maybe making a direct sale of box, manual and cd would net them more sales, perhaps not, but, if I don't speak up, they might not ever do it. Plus lower the price to $59.99 ;) And complaining about piracy I feel eventually something will happen, maybe not in my lifetime, but, someone might look back on this post 4000 years from now and say, wow, HE WAS RIGHT! lol

(in reply to Cmdrcain)

Post #: 61

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 8:52:53 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

The single home users will vary dependent on whats needed to be upgraded, 80MB is the figure for average single PC users, which can vary dependent on likely how many other past upgrades/patchs for SP1 were already applied.

Cmdrcain do you have any idea what this upgrade includes? What's it suppose to change or add? I've kept up with all the downloads since service pak 1, about a gig(exagerated) of data. Geesh that's a lot of downloading on dialup. But, I use the auto update feature, so I'm hoping this updates as I'm doing other things online or off, as long as I keep a connection.

Any links as to what might be included in this update would be nice if you have some.

Thanks.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 8/11/2004 1:53:55 AM >

(in reply to Cmdrcain)

Post #: 62

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 10:22:07 AM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I don't know about you guys, but, where I live when DOOM the origional first came out, they were selling the DEMO for $9.99.

The first DOOM release was the shareware version of DOOM, it was officially labelled as shareware. The incomes from the shareware made it possibly for John Carmack and his dedicated crew to further develop the game and refine it for a full retail version.

Check this very first sentence from the README

"id Software respectfully requests that you do not modify the
levels for the shareware version of DOOM. We feel that the
distribution of new levels that work with the shareware version
of DOOM will lessen a potential user's incentive to purchase the
registered version.

If you would like to work with modified levels of DOOM, we
encourage you to purchase the registered version of the game."

quote:

To me it's the reason Matrix, HPS, Shrapnel have gone to direct sales, at a loss of customer satisfaction, they are making "more" money. Instead of making $2-$3 a copy on the retail shelves, they are most likely making $20 a copy by direct sales if not more, so they can give up around (6) unhappy customers and still make about the same as going retail. So in essence we don't really matter, as long as a handful continue to buy their games this way.

You obvioulsy have not followed the discussion when whe announced that we will no put every game on the shelves anymore. With the decreasing shelf space for PC titles in general it�s becoming harder and harder to even get niche games into retail. The masses of titles you have to print in advance, with no garantue they will ever be sold, is simply eating you up. For games we feel that have a chance in retail, we will put themon the shelves.

quote:

I remember a time when selling 10,000 copies of a wargame was a success, Dave Landrey told me this. Today, well, I have no idea how many they need to sell for it to be a success. I'm sure things have gone up all around.

The figure is the same.

quote:

Just reading about how much it takes now to launch a MMORPG, 30 MILLION dollars!!!!! 30 flippin MILLON dollars, do you know what I would do if I had 30 million dollars? LOL I wouldn't be launching any MMORPG! I recently read that in a Computer Strategy Gaming magazine. And was reading that Warhammer online and Ultima XO are now defunct, because of the cost to launch a mmorpg.

Without people willing to invest such sums there would be a lot of people that would miss these type of games. Think about it, would you be happy if we simply say it�s not worththe risks ?

quote:

With the advent of Ebay and the likes of Amazon.com, it's becoming easier and easier to hold out on extreme high prices on just about anything anymore. They are both like giant garage sales online. Does this hurt the industry? Does this drive prices up? Most likely it will eventually, if everyone gets of alike mind that waiting means savings.

Yep, both are good ways to kill niche markets.

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 8/11/2004 3:34:01 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 5:06:10 PM

Hexed Gamer

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This discussion misses a few points along the way.

The game costs what it costs because Matrix Games determined what it needed to make the sale possible for THEM.

It is not relevant what my economic circumstances are in the making of THEIR game.
Because it was not ME that made it, thus it was not MY money being put on the line.

The simple fact is, I can't afford everything I want. Thus I don't own everything I want. And I don't expect David Heath or any of the other designer/developers to lose sleep lamenting that this poor schmuck couldn't buy their game.

I bought HTTR this year, because it beat out the competitors. Plain and simple. That ONLY says that I wanted that one more than all the other ones. It does not mean the others are unworthy, just that I myself wanted HTTR the most (and was only able to pick one).

I have several games I yet still want, and if the calendar rolls over into 2005 and I have still not bought them, that is likely just my problem.
There is every reason to believe, I could yet still not buy any other games this year, even if the price was dropped 15 bucks on every single one of them.
The wallet is empty here right now.

Some people just need to wake up and smell the reality, we can't all be friggin rich, or crazy enough to buy every game that happens to get placed on sale (at the expense of some other part of their personal lives).
Maybe it's to my advantage I have to be so ruthlessly picky.
I also don't have most of the games out there that eventually get to be picked on for being crummy.

CD on demand, it says what its about.
You want the damn thing, and don't want to or can't do so yourself, then dig in the wallet some more.

I don't recall David strong arming anyone to buy their 10 dollar cds or else.

The WAY some people complain, an observer would think they are being paid to do it :)

In all the past years of buying wargames, the actual PRICE of the game has never been the dominant factor in my getting it/not getting it. It was whether or not I had an avenue to getting it at all.
I live in small town nowhere, far removed from decent retail. Retail to me is a 20 dollar (gas costs) drive to somewhere else.
Thus, no matter what I buy in gaming, odds are it cost me 20 bucks to get to the store to look at the shelf and go "hmm nothing on sale today".
Much better to just spend the money on broadband, and download what I want when I want for whatever reason I want.

And anyone that can afford broadband, can also afford a decent cd and or dvd burner.

Thus, cd on demand, why the heck would I even need that service.

My sympathies to those living in small town nowhere, with no braodband access, no local friends with broadband access nor burner drives, no credit card, and no retail, and no job.

When are you planning to move though? :)

(in reply to Marc von Martial)

Post #: 64

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 5:34:08 PM

Toby42

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From: Central Florida
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I do not have a problem with Digital Downloads. I think that they are the future of Wargaming. I don't have a problem with printinting out my manual. I don't have a problem of not having a box to store. The only problem that I have is returning the game if it doesn't work on my computer. I guess that is something that I have to live with. As to a disk, most everyone has a burner or access to one. No big deal. Price? That also is a game by game decision. I won't spend $69 for WITP, but I might for another title.

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Post #: 65

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 6:41:37 PM

Error in 0

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This thread is about

1) Some feel it is too much charging 10$ for a CD, and suspect that shipping is included in the price despite it says free shipping. They may feel that Matrix is not entirely honest, and that the high price for a CD makes the offer not a really valid offer. Even if I do not have seriouse objections against the CD price, it is obvious that some feel it is important, and anyone should respect that.

2) It is a question of who is going to decide tomorrows market. In a standard marked the competition ensures that the customers most often decide this through the demand. In this case Matrix does not really have any important competition as I can see it, and it is a risk that Matrix can use this to set price/policy themself. Some maybe feel this has already been done on some of their products.

3) Because of 2 it is extra important that customers and potential customers speak up about their conserns, if they have them. Nobody has ever benefittet but the producer from people who say "Ill pay ANYTHING" as a feeble attempt to lick the manufacturers a** and showing their appreciation for their products (as many posts on these forums have). There are other ways to do this.

4) Because of 2 it is my duty to speak up if i do not appreciate the way Matrix is handling the sale. Frankly, I do not want you to be able to buy the game for 2$ less because you dont care about a CD or manual, forcing me to pay 20$ extra to get this (example). It is of cource what I WANT, and has nothing to do with right or wrong. Sale statistics often does not.

HexedGamer point out the simple truth that most of us cannot afford all we want. Unlike him I believe customers can manipulate prices to some extend, and maybe one day WitP may cost 40$. Who knows, stranger things have happened. There are always ways! Why, for instance, may companies like play.com sell games at a lower price than the distributor? Because they sell from many distributors, and can even out the risk. They can even sell some low-selling games at a loss if they want to. A company like Matrix cannot. So why dont Matrix utilize play.com and its like? We dont know for sure until Matrix tells us.

JT

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 66

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 6:50:37 PM

Error in 0

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

I do not have a problem with Digital Downloads. I think that they are the future of Wargaming. I don't have a problem with printinting out my manual. I don't have a problem of not having a box to store. The only problem that I have is returning the game if it doesn't work on my computer. I guess that is something that I have to live with. As to a disk, most everyone has a burner or access to one. No big deal. Price? That also is a game by game decision. I won't spend $69 for WITP, but I might for another title.

Yes, I wonder that to. If I buy a digital product i my store, I can return it saying "it did not work on my compuret configuration", and I could change it into another product, or get money back. Of cource both parties are aware I might have cracked it, and use it perfectly fine, just to cheat them, but in this case we are both a member of a huge marked that share that risk, and make it affordable to provide this kind of customer service. If a company like Matrix decide to isolate themself, such a service would be rather stiff I guess, and product prices rather high. It is, of course, their decition to make. But is it necessary?

JT

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 67

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 6:50:47 PM

ravinhood

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quote:

With the decreasing shelf space for PC titles in general it�s becoming harder and harder to even get niche games into retail.

Cmon Marc, I don't buy this excuse, Best Buy has a 20ft isle dedicated to PC computer games, in fact they have (3) 20ft isles dedicated to all computer software and (4) 4ft shelves dedicated to new releases and bargain bin. So, it's pretty hard for me to buy this excuse that shelf space is getting smaller and smaller. If it is getting smaller and smaller, developers are taking "longer and longer" to produce something new, that's not the retail outlets fault. And it's clear this is what is happening when you read about games taking FIVE years to complete and some still not finished yet.

I'll give you another software store example. Hastings has (2) 8ft pc game isles, (12) 4ft software shelves total. And one 8ft wall display of the most recent releases.

Walmarts has (4) 4ft pc gaming shelves. (8) 4ft total software shelves. Not to mention the horde of software on overheads and under the shelves themselves.

I don't know where you are getting your figures from, unless it's strictly from EBgames, cause that's the only software outlet in my town that has (1) 4ft shelf space for Computer Games anymore. Yah EBgames have deserted you for Console games, but, these other majors have not. Software etc. which is an EBgames subcenter (in our mall), has (3) 4ft sections of computer software and (4) 4ft sections of bargain bin. lol I'm tellin yah man, EBgames have deserted just about all software for console games.

And I live in a town of only 76,000, so it's very hard to believe a small town like this has MORE software stocked shelves than much larger cities.

Maybe you guys need to change distributers or whomever is dealing with your retail outlets when you do go retail. I actually sold a game for you not long ago. Heh, Korsun Pocket and I don't even own it myself, but, just from what I had read about it online was able to make the sale and I don't even work for BEST BUY! lol

(in reply to Marc von Martial)

Post #: 68

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/11/2004 7:48:29 PM

Hexed Gamer

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I think the thoughts on store space might be fractionally off target now that I think of it some more.

All the stores I visit are finite sized locations.
They are good sized stores, but they don't stretch.

I have noticed that in sum total, more space is used by console than PC, but that PC yet still is larger than any one single console manufacturer. That is important to remember.

What is important to remember though, is if the store has space for 200 PC boxes, then having 250 choices means 50 get refused shelf space. That isn't the fault of consoles.
If Sony dumped 50 titles on the market tommorrow, the stores would not magically get larger. Nor would the available space for Playstation magically get larger. Although if X-Box suddenly stopped being worth selling that might change.

I have noticed that PC boxes have all migrated to the smaller format recently. This is not parallel with computer tech eh. The boxes got smaller so the store could stock more boxes.
If the PC market suddenly expanded, the shelves would likely not expand without due cause.
The retailers might have to deal with boxes being stocked the same way magazines are, interleaved rather than facing out fully.
This happens in any sort of store though. The store is only so big, and space is often at a premium.

I bought HTTR at an EB for 40 bucks, not the online 69 at Matrix Games. Yeah I was pleased to pay 40 not 69. My wallet thanked me for several days actually :)
I am not sure how much Matrix Games sold the copy to EB for, nor how much money EB made from my sale. Not my problem though.

I just know 40 bucks that day was doable, 70 was not. Maybe later, but it would have been later.
I don't own WitP yet. I want it, but I don't have the cash "right now". Just means I wait. Probably to my advantage. I will have missed all the day one glitches that are being fixed along the way.

What can I say, "thanks guys, all you that bought it on day one and spared me all the headaches of those glitches".

< Message edited by Hexed Gamer -- 8/11/2004 5:50:55 PM >

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Post #: 69

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 3:11:19 AM

ravinhood

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Heh, Hexed Gamer, Amazon.com last month had a sale on HTTR for $34.00 with free shipping. hehe, not to spoil your party or anything. lol ;)~

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Post #: 70

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:39:37 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
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From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

So why complain?

It is something that is done, complaining of it will not do anything,
so why in first place moan about such?

Because if people don't speak up for what they feel and want, nothing will change, you think the whole world got where it is today without complaints being a major factor of it? Shall I go back to "sweat shops" and working little boys and girls hard labor for 10 cents a day? Change comes by complaining. Hopefully Matrix will notice my complaint and see that maybe making a direct sale of box, manual and cd would net them more sales, perhaps not, but, if I don't speak up, they might not ever do it. Plus lower the price to $59.99 ;) And complaining about piracy I feel eventually something will happen, maybe not in my lifetime, but, someone might look back on this post 4000 years from now and say, wow, HE WAS RIGHT! lol

yeah...their attempting to do something by trying push through bills that would change the betamax decision, make about anything anyone does that COULD possiable induce someone to illegal copy as illegal...
if the whackos in Congress pass their bills, then Vcrs, cd/dvd burners, a whole slew of things are illegal, wake up, the wackos are trying to fight piracy by making one liable for anything that might induce someone to illegal copy... go check it out..

Piracy as a business cost is better then some of these things RIAA and others are pushing for..

Way their bills are written a plain Harddrive.. the Harddrive makers could be sued cause the device "could" induce someone to use it to store illegal copys...

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Post #: 71

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:43:06 AM

Cmdrcain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

The single home users will vary dependent on whats needed to be upgraded, 80MB is the figure for average single PC users, which can vary dependent on likely how many other past upgrades/patchs for SP1 were already applied.

Cmdrcain do you have any idea what this upgrade includes? What's it suppose to change or add? I've kept up with all the downloads since service pak 1, about a gig(exagerated) of data. Geesh that's a lot of downloading on dialup. But, I use the auto update feature, so I'm hoping this updates as I'm doing other things online or off, as long as I keep a connection.

Any links as to what might be included in this update would be nice if you have some.

Thanks.

Well you might look at cnet, alot of SP2 is security stuff,
fixs to try to fix holes and it auto turns on xp's firewall, and other tweaks, supposedly making it easier for anti-virius prg makers to hook into the OS.

Check the technology websites for discussions.

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Post #: 72

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:48:05 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

The simple fact is, I can't afford everything I want. Thus I don't own everything I want. And I don't expect David Heath or any of the other designer/developers to lose sleep lamenting that this poor schmuck couldn't buy their game.

Some people just need to wake up and smell the reality, we can't all be friggin rich, or crazy enough to buy every game that happens to get placed on sale (at the expense of some other part of their personal lives).

Heh....

If your a Guy named Bill Gates you pretty much Could buy anything you felt like having...

Sighhhhhh

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Post #: 73

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:58:03 AM

Cmdrcain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

1) Some feel it is too much charging 10$ for a CD, and suspect that shipping is included in the price despite it says free shipping. They may feel that Matrix is not entirely honest, and that the high price for a CD makes the offer not a really valid offer. Even if I do not have seriouse objections against the CD price, it is obvious that some feel it is important, and anyone should respect that.

JT

The error is the way DR and perhaps Matrix presented it.

As it is the CD is a priced "extra"

I would have marketed it as The product at $80 regular price
entitling one to Download it while waiting for the CD
to arrive, the CD being the Normal, Regular price....

With the Digital Download Only way, No Cd as a DISCOUNTED price
at $70 so just downloading it and burning own would make one feel they saved $10

Either way also that there was no printed Manuel, fact is many games are coming out with a PDF file for a manuel, the move is to move away from printed manuels.

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Post #: 74

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 6:22:10 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

if the whackos in Congress pass their bills, then Vcrs, cd/dvd burners, a whole slew of things are illegal, wake up, the wackos are trying to fight piracy by making one liable for anything that might induce someone to illegal copy... go check it out..

Well it would help reduce piracy. I seem to recall a time when there were just VCR players and not recorders. I also remember a time when there were CD-Roms and not CD-burners. I also remember a time when there were no "hard-drives". It's kind of like this, if you put something into peoples hands that they can "abuse" they will abuse it.

I can say this, if it will open up "returns and refunds" for things I don't like or that are faulty, I'm all for the law. I don't require a cd burner, I don't require a vcr recorder or dvd as seems to be the new age of media. I 'buy' vhs movies, I don't record them, I buy cd's music and games, I don't goto a pirate site and record them, so this law wouldn't bother me at all. I can only feel the people that would be against this law are people that might fall outside of this law from time to time if not all the time.

Now as far as how they would work around hard-drives, I've been reading about this new type of PC console system that is coming out in the near future that all you do is put in the game CD and the system sets everything up for you, much like a console game does, but, pc games instead. I'd be all for this type of system as well if it works.

But, hard-drives for businesses and whatnot, well, I'm sure they will work that out or figure out a way to still allow some form of media operation for businesses, and just eliminate home use, which with this new console system it would be just fine. Insert game cd, play, take it out, put something else in, and play. I see no problems there. If it will help drive the costs down to me, I'm all for any changes, if it will allow me to return and get a full refund for a faulty product or just not liking it, I'm all for it. Go Congress ;)

And also, hehe direct download sales would have to go back to "retail"! YAY! ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 8/11/2004 11:23:56 PM >

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Post #: 75

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 6:43:01 AM

Hexed Gamer

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I have a tape recorder, I am not afraid to put blank cassettes in it.

I have a vcr, and I am not afraid to put blank tapes in it.

I have a dvd burner drive, and I am not afraid to put blank cd and or dvds into it.

Frankly, the pirates didn't invent/distribute all this technology, they are just employing their braincells to good effect.

Who is to blame for all this tech? the people that made the tech.

As far as I am concerned, until society stops making it so stupidly easy to copy stuff, I will just have to offer them no sympathy.

I would like to write for profit, so don't think I haven't given it some thought about someone taking money out of my pocket.
If someone scanned my book and just gave it away on the net, it would be mostly the fault of people making devices that had no safeguards possible.

The government can go on and on about wanting to do this that or the other thing.
But it's like fretting over a pregnancy during kid's 3rd birthday for all the good it will do.

The tech is here, and they might as well live with it. The blank media is here, and they might as well live with it.
The only thing they can hope to do, is find some way to gain revenue from it and try hopelessly to get some aid to the artist.
They could also try and find some way to make it less economical to download material so easily in such large volumes on off the internet. Although good luck to them figuring that one out.

What exactly is the limits of a copy? Does a pencil and sufficient paper and me hand writing a copy of a book count?

It always comes down to one of my personal favourite notions. It's mankinds obsession with money at fault.

When we humans grow up as a species, and stop requiring money for our efforts, when we can apply ourselves to a task and not require any financial reward, when everyone can have provided for them everything that is needed to live, piracy will be one of the things that will no longer be relevant.

And that is just not going to happen any time soon.

So I will just continue to literally laugh at the pathetic efforts to eliminate the uneliminatable.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 76

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 8:23:33 AM

Cmdrcain

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The Induce act would literally open up about anyone, any business to civil suit simply on a claim their product or what they say can induce someone to illegally copy.

Its a bill that would make it easy for anyone to sue and simply show that a device or a word COULD induce someone to illegally act...

No need prove it caused someone to in fact illegally copy etc, just show it could induce someone to misuse it would be enough.

It is extremly BROAD in present form, Go check it out, point is that the crys to stop piracy are getting out of hand, the RIAA and others only cares about money... not about legal uses of devices that can copy things.

Supposedly it is aimed at peer to peer things, but in the haste to put controls on such they may make it easy for anyone to sue anyone simply cause a device or something they said has the POSSIABILITY to induce someone to misuse it...

Its like allowing people to sue Icecream makers cause it(product=device) could induce someone to over eat and get fat... so to speak.

It is scary...

< Message edited by Cmdrcain -- 8/12/2004 1:27:42 AM >

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Post #: 77

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 8:37:22 AM

ravinhood

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Here's an interesting concept, what about charging anyone and everyone that uses the internet for "downloading" purposes. I'm sure the internet providers could easily implement this sort of system, surely that would lower piracy? Now I'm not talking about extremes here and of course there must be business offerings here that would not be included, but, your normal household average joe. Wanna download a free copy of some game hrmmm 2gigabytes of download or more, figure up a desirable fee that would thwart just about anyone from downloading such content. If the cost of the download is equal or above the cost of actually buying the game, well only an idiot would download it I think.

Of course downloading direct downloads from business like Matrix and such that had legal "certificates" registered within the internet could possibly be the method to still allow download of "legal" content without having to pay a download fee.

Just mere speculation, I don't know all the loop holes here or what this idea might entail, but, seems to me, if outside of normal downloading there was a fee charge, it might stop some of this piracy online.

(in reply to Cmdrcain)

Post #: 78

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 8:44:42 AM

Cmdrcain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

if the whackos in Congress pass their bills, then Vcrs, cd/dvd burners, a whole slew of things are illegal, wake up, the wackos are trying to fight piracy by making one liable for anything that might induce someone to illegal copy... go check it out..

Well it would help reduce piracy. I seem to recall a time when there were just VCR players and not recorders. I also remember a time when there were CD-Roms and not CD-burners. I also remember a time when there were no "hard-drives". It's kind of like this, if you put something into peoples hands that they can "abuse" they will abuse it.

I can say this, if it will open up "returns and refunds" for things I don't like or that are faulty, I'm all for the law. I don't require a cd burner, I don't require a vcr recorder or dvd as seems to be the new age of media. I 'buy' vhs movies, I don't record them, I buy cd's music and games, I don't goto a pirate site and record them, so this law wouldn't bother me at all. I can only feel the people that would be against this law are people that might fall outside of this law from time to time if not all the time.

Now as far as how they would work around hard-drives, I've been reading about this new type of PC console system that is coming out in the near future that all you do is put in the game CD and the system sets everything up for you, much like a console game does, but, pc games instead. I'd be all for this type of system as well if it works.

But, hard-drives for businesses and whatnot, well, I'm sure they will work that out or figure out a way to still allow some form of media operation for businesses, and just eliminate home use, which with this new console system it would be just fine. Insert game cd, play, take it out, put something else in, and play. I see no problems there. If it will help drive the costs down to me, I'm all for any changes, if it will allow me to return and get a full refund for a faulty product or just not liking it, I'm all for it. Go Congress ;)

And also, hehe direct download sales would have to go back to "retail"! YAY! ;)

Gee what VCR PLAYERS you talking of? When VCR came out they were both recorders and players, the supreme court 5-4 ruled it was legal to sell vcrs due to the legal use of it.

There were no Players only for Vcrs's.

Cdroms? When cdroms came out there were Burners too, just that the burners were extremly expensive, tell me how a cdrom could be created without a burner LOL!

Your for the Law without actually reading up what the law would allow?

It would allow YOU to be sued purely if you recommended any means of copying (even for a legal purpose), its a law about broadly applying an "induce" standard so watch out.

Heres link to bill:

http://www.corante.com/importance/archives/INDUCE.html

http://www.corante.com/importance/archives/005621.php

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,64315,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5

< Message edited by Cmdrcain -- 8/12/2004 1:59:35 AM >

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Post #: 79

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 12:17:28 PM

Error in 0

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How big is the piracy problem? I have the imperession it has been extremely inflated in media and of the piracy-hunters. These hunters are also very narrowminded animals. They live under the dogma that to fix a problem, make it illegal and punish the criminals. Who knows, maybe there is another way? Maybe there is a marked for very cheap but quality prooved MP3 files out there. Im just sure that almost all people really feel better with them self doing 'the right thing'. Spend the money on incourage that.

I just feel that the PEOPLE get lost in all this. In Norway the CD's from the biggest producer (EMI? Dont recall) had a protection unabeling the to be used on a PC. Unfortunately they were also useless on many of a major electronic brands CD-players, and examples were given where the players were actually damaged. The answer from the music producer were that it was relativ few who experienced these severe problems, and they would not do anything. The mere risk of piracy was reason enough. Because there are not multiple producers for the same CD, many people could just not listen to that music. Horrible.

The Induce act seems even more horrible. But then again; its the USA, and that is just "the american way" I guess...

JT

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Post #: 80

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 2:37:40 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

Gee what VCR PLAYERS you talking of? When VCR came out they were both recorders and players, the supreme court 5-4 ruled it was legal to sell vcrs due to the legal use of it.

There were no Players only for Vcrs's.

Cdroms? When cdroms came out there were Burners too, just that the burners were extremly expensive, tell me how a cdrom could be created without a burner LOL!

The wording I should have used were VHS players (and these came out before recorders were introduced into the market), I had one, it was built into a TV w/15" screen, and all it did was play vhs tapes it had no record features on it at all. Made by Phillips/Magnavox.

Also of course there were burners, but, you seem to forget cd-rom burners did not come in PC's for quite awhile after cd-roms started coming in them and the initial price for a cd-rom burner was around $3600, not likely "many" home owned pc's had one of those at the initial release of cd-roms.

This is where I start to partially blame the industry itself for the high level of piracy there is today (and most likely why this new bill is being presented). By decreasing the price of cd-rom burners to practically nothing and then reducing the cost to connect to the internet, there's more than just piracy, major crimes are going on within the internet now. It seems they over-shot their abilities to police the net before they opened it up to the masses of the world. I remember when an online connection cost you $3 an hour or more. You didn't have many "kiddies" running around the net when it was that expensive. Not to mention 1200 baud connections that it would take a lifetime to download any major programs of today.

I also think you are over interpreting the law and over-reacting (basically because of this statement: "While all panelists expressed interest in working with the committee to halt piracy, four of the five panelists rejected the bill in its current form.") , you appear to be a liberal and that would explain why you don't like the law. I highly doubt these professional lawmakers would impose any such law that would make it so simple to sue anyone over anything as simple as you seem to believe it to be. I'm sure it will be tossed around and reworked so as not to make it as simple as you think it will be and even so, it still doesn't mean it will pass.

As I said before though, I rather hope it passes when it is written in fair form, it won't bother me at all. Laws have been changing for years and years now, nothing new here except attempting to make laws that would thwart and punish violators of copyright laws etc. etc. and also to hold technology responsible for these violations as well. Perhaps it might just slow technology down somewhat and we won't have to upgrade our systems every 2 years just to keep up. I'm all for that also. ;)

And to show the increase in piracy, there was a thread at the wargamer.com that someone posted that the download count for DOOM III was already at 200,000. That's getting pretty serious when you have 200,000 individuals downloading a copyrighted game for free, no pay, just play. So there definitely needs to be some new laws imposed and I'm all for that if it eventually helps reduce the cost of software and eventually allows for the return and refund of faulty software or just don't like it at all.

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Post #: 81

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:13:43 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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quote:

And to show the increase in piracy, there was a thread at the wargamer.com that someone posted that the download count for DOOM III was already at 200,000. That's getting pretty serious when you have 200,000 individuals downloading a copyrighted game for free, no pay, just play. So there definitely needs to be some new laws imposed and I'm all for that if it eventually helps reduce the cost of software and eventually allows for the return and refund of faulty software or just don't like it at all.

Two sides to this coin.

As long as people can do something, they will do it. As long as you attempt to prevent people from doing something, others will devote their talents to ways around it.

The basic problem is that (a) software costs too much in general, (b) most software is nowhere near worth what is charged for it due to it being rushed to market in an unready state and (c) people resent being ripped off.

The industry has lost all trust of the public over the years. I doubt there is a single person here who has not had the experience of getting home with their new purchase, loading it up, and finding it doesn't work. They have no ability to do anything at that point in time. They have just been screwed out of their hard earned money.

Until the industry starts to police themselves and lay makers actually put in some protection for the consumer, they industry is not in a position to cry foul. They through greed have caused the situation to exist in the first place.

I hate piracy big time. I also hate being ripped off. I have hundreds of CD's sitting here of which perhaps 40 were worth the money spent. The rest were me getting ripped off. If you look at an average of $50, and do the math ... lets say 200 CD's x $50 = $10,000 of which 40 were worth it, thats $8,000 extra I paid over the years or $200 a game.

As long as I have no legal avenue to go after the rip off artists who flood the market with crap, it becomes really tough to justify going after those who rip off the rip off artists. Obviously real people get hurt as a result of the fallout, but I honestly think the only way to fix this is to fix both sides.

The computer business is probably the only industry left in the world where the consumer has no rights at all. They need to fix that then they will get some public support behind them to put an end to piracy.

That's one of the reasons Matrix is such a great company, they actually *support* their customers!

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Post #: 82

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 5:29:49 PM

Hexed Gamer

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Ok we need to be smart, (which is not a requirement if you are makng laws if you ask me).

When I download something, it's not because I am being cheap, it's because it is easy and convenient. Maybe I am unique in that respect.

If I like a song, I like the song. I might not like the whole cd though. Make the internet work FOR us not against us. Make it EASIER to get the song. Fractionally, not in large assortments.

CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN!

Well I suppose that won't sit well with the middlemen. Tough.

Put the media back in the hands of the people that made it.

Make devices to make media the norm. Make it so it is simple to make the media, then distribute it as we see fit.

Yes I know, I am talking a major shift in how things are done. I am advocating total removal of the entire reording industry in favour of every artist being able to produce.

Sound outrageous? Well frankly, everything in my life today, would have been an outrageous notion 60 years ago. So why let an outrageous notion slow me down.

Matrix Games is going the right route with digital download. It is a bumpy start, and they are not doing it the best way at every corner, but it's a learning process. I can allow for that.

Matrix Games makes a game, and the sells the game, and they transport the game, and no one intercepts any of the money.
Any downside to that?

True Matrix Games also is the middleman in some cases. So the guys making the games that Matrix Games sometimes only publishes, could easily be doing the same thing.
That's the point of course, everyone could be a Matrix Games if they wanted to be if the situation allowed for it.

I don't live in fear of anyone making it a crime to own cd/dvd burnning hardware, or software to employ the same.
I also don't live in fear of a lot of other crackpot notions.

I think though, the industry might live in fear of some of these politicians bankrupting them when society refuses to buy anything made under those conditions.
My current dvd burner drive is how I run cd/dvds. Telling me I can't use it, is identical to telling me to stop buying dvds.

Guess what happens when enough people just stop buying dvds? Any dvds. Yep, crashing halt to the industry.
Who loses? The industry.

Me, I can always go to a theatre to watch the movie. I can always go to a concert to here the music. I can always play a board game. I can always buy a book at the store.

If digital media was ripped out of my life tomorrow, my life WILL go on. But it is sure going to cost a lot of jobs.
Those jobs cost votes. Those votes can put people in power or take them out.
I am not worried about the insane decisions having much power.

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Post #: 83

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 8:44:20 PM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
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From: Staten Island NY
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Hi Guys

This will have to be a short email today. Please understand that we hear your post the good and the bad and I want to say thank you. I also want you to know that MAJOR changes to provide better service and better wording on our site and store are in the works. Expect to see some of the changes this month.

David

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Post #: 84

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/12/2004 9:06:59 PM

ravinhood

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YAY, see it does change things by "speacking out" "moaning and groaning"! hehe

Thanks David. ;)

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Post #: 85

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/13/2004 2:58:53 AM

Cmdrcain

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Grumppp after writting out a post I get an error...

wish we didn't lose what we attempted to post if an error in posting cropped up.. too tired to type the post out all over grumpp

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Post #: 86

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/13/2004 3:36:36 AM

ravinhood

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LOL CmdrCain, that happened to me a couple of times and after that I started "copying" my post before I clicked on the "ok" button, that way when I got the error I had my post still saved to retry.

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Post #: 87

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/13/2004 5:03:56 AM

Hexed Gamer

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Misery loves company Cmdrcain, I lost a post the same way :)

I got moody and went and watched tv in my case.

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Post #: 88

RE: CD fee?!?! - 8/13/2004 7:32:41 AM

Fred98