Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Bodhi

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
This negative "I've been ignored" stuff really bugs me ... if you don't like things, start your own game company and write your own game then you can have it just the way *you* want it. Thats the way the real world works. I have never seen a group that spent more time adding player requested improvements and features. If you want to give 2by3 a bad time, you are biting the very hand that feeds you. Who do you plan on whining to when they are gone?

If you really want a game to be exactly "the way *you* want it", you design and write it yourself. No need to form a game compnay to do so. If you want to sell it and earn a living from designing/writing games, then you form a game company. And as any good company should do, you listen to your customers. "Thats the way the real world works."

A company that listens and spends "time adding player requested improvements and features" is actually helping itself by making the game appeal more to the target audience. Not only that, they are also getting valuable feedback on how to make future games even more attractive to their paying customers. (BTW, it's actually the paying customers who are "feeding" 2By3/Matrix, not the other way round. ) If they continue to supply games that people are willing to buy, then they won't "disappear", unless individually they decide that they're tired of making games and want a change of direction.

The attitude that, this is the game we made, take it or leave it and stop whining, is symptomatic of a game made as a non-commercial hobby, or one from a company that isn't going to be around for too much longer. Personally, I don't believe 2By/Matrix fit either of these two descriptions.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

If you want to give 2by3 a bad time, you are biting the very hand that feeds you.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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Hence, I am in favor of adding a toggle, so that those of us with AI games can turn off the autovictory.

Toggle requires artwork, programming, etc.

Editor requires nothing. Edit you solution, takes 2 minutes.

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There is not a game that exists where one side can't quit when they have had enough, good luck finding someone to continue to play a game beyond a 4:1 ratio.

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Lets use programmers for stuff that actually requires their time.

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I'll add it to the list and we'll see what happens.

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Hi, Is this a real problem or are we once again debating something that only exists in someones mind. First you have to get through 400 turns and have a 3 to 1 lead. if not then you have another 365 turns before you need a 4-1 lead.

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If you do force an auto victory your saying that having destroyed the entire enemy force you want to spend another 800+ turns sailing around admiring yourself?

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The Game "You've won"
The Player " No I have not. There is still a PC at Port Arthur"

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The only victory condition in WITP is the autovictory via point ratio. The actual allies did not attain it before 1945. (The Japanese if they ever had it lost it in May -June 1942)
Japanese auto victory means they have been on a constant rampage for 13 months. The chance of Allied autovictory prior to 1944 is so remote it's not worth the worry.

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Several of us argued long and hard for this during the game design phase, but were ignored.

It worries me that "IGNORED" keeps coming up in descriptions of this kind. Sounds
as if there is a "sacred cow" cult operating within 2by3

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The best WitP game you'll ever have (and the most realistic) is if you sit down and play the game through without reading the rulebook, without reading all the player tips and strategy notes on the forum, and without restarting when you make a mistake. This is the only way to minimize the 20/20 hindsight and historical knowledge that all of us grognards have regarding the War in the Pacific. The AI doesn't have that background knowledge. Learn as you go, that's what the real commanders had to do.

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Also they should put in a scenario that allows you to modify build queues and build ships/planes/infantry etc that you want and withdraw their cost from heavy industry points or something.

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Several of us argued long and hard for this during the game design phase, but were ignored.

It worries me that "IGNORED" keeps coming up in descriptions of this kind. Sounds
as if there is a "sacred cow" cult operating within 2by3

No, no sacred cows, just a desire to finish the game. Come on Mike. If we acted on every item that came up during development the game would still be in development. Yes, we didn't do everything that everyone proposed (I didn't even see all the suggestions since keeping up with the forum is a full time job that we can't afford to hire for). I actually agree with this one that we should have given players the option to continue. Hopefully it will get done in a future patch if it's not too painful to program.

I know this doesn't mean much to those who have things they'd like to have seen us do differently, but this was the most ambitious and difficult game that I've ever worked on (and I've worked on a lot of games). If it wasn't for a lot of hard work by a lot of people, it could have easily never made it out the door (weren't the Vegas odds 3 to 1 against us? ). We had to ignore some things or we'd still be programming. If I could wave a magic wand and make some of the suggestions come true (like this one), I would, but it's usually not that easy.

By the way, I also agree that it's time that players start playing at harder AI difficulty levels (especially if they have played UV a lot). The best WitP game you'll ever have (and the most realistic) is if you sit down and play the game through without reading the rulebook, without reading all the player tips and strategy notes on the forum, and without restarting when you make a mistake. This is the only way to minimize the 20/20 hindsight and historical knowledge that all of us grognards have regarding the War in the Pacific. The AI doesn't have that background knowledge. Learn as you go, that's what the real commanders had to do. The AI is ok relative to other AI's (which means pretty dumb compared to a good player), but give it a break and at least play on hard (it has no combat cheats).

As has been stated elsewhere, Gary will continue to work on the AI periodically as long as we get save games that show specific issues. I don't honestly expect it to get a lot better than it is now, but hopefully we can improve a few of the more obvious problems.

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ORIGINAL: Bodhi

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
This negative "I've been ignored" stuff really bugs me ... if you don't like things, start your own game company and write your own game then you can have it just the way *you* want it. Thats the way the real world works. I have never seen a group that spent more time adding player requested improvements and features. If you want to give 2by3 a bad time, you are biting the very hand that feeds you. Who do you plan on whining to when they are gone?

If you really want a game to be exactly "the way *you* want it", you design and write it yourself. No need to form a game compnay to do so. If you want to sell it and earn a living from designing/writing games, then you form a game company. And as any good company should do, you listen to your customers. "Thats the way the real world works."

Thats exactly the point ... posters have indicated again and again that 2by3 ignores them. That is such a load of horsecrap it is beyond belief. I have never seen a company that spends more time in forums listening to their customers. Just because in the 200 page long list of feature requests that *your* personal favorate hasn't made it to the top yet does not mean it is not on the list.

A company that listens and spends "time adding player requested improvements and features" is actually helping itself by making the game appeal more to the target audience. Not only that, they are also getting valuable feedback on how to make future games even more attractive to their paying customers. (BTW, it's actually the paying customers who are "feeding" 2By3/Matrix, not the other way round. ) If they continue to supply games that people are willing to buy, then they won't "disappear", unless individually they decide that they're tired of making games and want a change of direction.

WitP is a special, it is not a normal game where the company expected to turn a profit to continue. It is a life long ambition of GG's to make the "epic" game never to be surpassed. I don't know personally and they will never admit it publically, but I very much doubt they have even broken even on the costs for this game yet they are still hard at work making it better.

The attitude that, this is the game we made, take it or leave it and stop whining, is symptomatic of a game made as a non-commercial hobby, or one from a company that isn't going to be around for too much longer. Personally, I don't believe 2By/Matrix fit either of these two descriptions.

They don't, but when you read a lot of posts lately, that is exactly the kind of negative press they are getting. It gets rather annoying to have to read them coupled with knowing that they tend to drive away sales on a product that is unlikely to make a profit in the first place. This "I'm going to beat on 2by3" because my request didn't get added while someone elses did is just childish. It's just one of those symptoms of the internet. People type things that they would never say in person and give zero thought to the implications of their post.

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As for my comment to play the first AI game without reading the rules, I was really intending this for players that have played UV before, because they would know about 80%+ of the main rules (and probably know them well). Of even they should read the rules to avoid problems like activating the Soviet Union, etc. For a player of WitP that never played UV, you should play the tutorial and a few smaller scenarios (and yes read the rules) before jumping into the grand campaign. But when you are finally ready to jump, avoid reading the strategy notes from other players and live with your mistakes. The game will be much more challenging (and in my opinion fun) that way. Once you are ready to play PBEM, that's when it's time to take advantage of all the great tips one can find in the forums.

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Even testers don't get everything they want. First, just because a tester wanted something doesn't mean the entire group, or even a majority agreed. Second there is the cost/benefit analysis regarding how hard it will be to make a proposed change, what are the odds a change will cause other problems (either through bugs or unintended consequences that the tester and the programmers didn't account for due to the complexity of the game). We never claim any game we work on is perfect, in fact it's because we are intimately aware of some of its problems that we often do (or don't do) things that don't make sense to some players. Eliminate a rule and some bad consequences of it and you may find problems that are worse because you eliminated it. Anyway, Mike and the testers continue to work away at improving the game (fixing bugs and adding new features and occasionally even changing a rule), and Gary continues to work on the AI as we get saves. I don't know what more we can do. At some point these people will have to move on to other projects for obvious reasons so I hope that no one thinks Matrix or 2by3 have infinite resources to work on any one game. It's because of this that calls have to be made, priorities have to be set. In the end our hope is that most (if not all) customers will decide that the game was fun and worth the price they paid for it.

As for my comment to play the first AI game without reading the rules, I was really intending this for players that have played UV before, because they would know about 80%+ of the main rules (and probably know them well). Of even they should read the rules to avoid problems like activating the Soviet Union, etc. For a player of WitP that never played UV, you should play the tutorial and a few smaller scenarios (and yes read the rules) before jumping into the grand campaign. But when you are finally ready to jump, avoid reading the strategy notes from other players and live with your mistakes. The game will be much more challenging (and in my opinion fun) that way. Once you are ready to play PBEM, that's when it's time to take advantage of all the great tips one can find in the forums.

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I'd love to change the map in Australia for example...

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
...This negative "I've been ignored" stuff really bugs me ... if you don't like things, start your own game company and write your own game then you can have it just the way *you* want it. Thats the way the real world works. I have never seen a group that spent more time adding player requested improvements and features. If you want to give 2by3 a bad time, you are biting the very hand that feeds you. Who do you plan on whining to when they are gone?...

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As you probably know, we are working hard on our next game (GGWaW) with the hope that it will be a big commercial success for 2by3 and Matrix so we can all afford to continue to spend the time on labors of love like WitP.

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"Several of us argued long and hard for this during the game design phase, but without success."

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ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I appreciate the offer Mike. Maybe we should take contributions like political candidates or theater groups and offer various levels of support some kind of honorary title. Maybe a graphic that would come up at the beginning of the game listing the donars in groups (Fanboy clubs?). I wish we could collect ongoing revenue for changes, but I doubt that would fly.

I appreciate the desire to hear quickly whether something is possible or likely to be changed or not, but even doing that takes an effort because anything is ultimately possible depending on the time we want to put in on the change and the risks/benefits that would result. I'd love to change the map in Australia for example, and it could be done. However it would take artists from Matrix, programmers, OOB guys and an unknown amount of AI test and programming to make sure we didn't screw something up. Something like this is not going to happen quickly if at all, but I don't want to rule it out completely as long as there is a chance something might happen here. I don't know about Matrix, but 2by3 does look at the sales of the game and try to determine how much time we can justify putting into changing/improving the game after release. It's really too early to say just how much we will be able to do, so it's hard to rule out things that we would like to do but realize may be too much work to ever get done. As you probably know, we are working hard on our next game (GGWaW) with the hope that it will be a big commercial success for 2by3 and Matrix so we can all afford to continue to spend the time on labors of love like WitP.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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"Several of us argued long and hard for this during the game design phase, but without success."

Even thats stretching it.

How about, "Our request is on the list of possible feature additions but has not made it to the top yet."

See how radically different that sounds?

BTW: Anyone who shows me a Auto-Victory screen in 1943, I will fix your bases so you can play onwards. There's the gauntlet thrown down.

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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"Several of us argued long and hard for this during the game design phase, but without success."

Even thats stretching it.

How about, "Our request is on the list of possible feature additions but has not made it to the top yet."

See how radically different that sounds?

BTW: Anyone who shows me a Auto-Victory screen in 1943, I will fix your bases so you can play onwards. There's the gauntlet thrown down.

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Really? I didn't know it was possible to edit a savegame. How would you fix it?

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ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

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Really? I didn't know it was possible to edit a savegame. How would you fix it?

YOU don't