Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Really ZOOMIE? I wouldn't think these arguements are sound in that the JAp player needs help, lots of it too, or else they will simply be gutted by a competent player using the available 42 forces...

that is if they are too agressive. a passive approach, one advocated by several Betas leaves open the whole issue of "what is a realistic 42 strategy for IJN/ IJA in Southern solomans area?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Works both ways the US can move troops in JAn that should be still fitting out and can start new Zealanmd and Brit/oz troops to slow down these advances, and remember theose advances need to be supported by supply coinvoys good luck trying to supply port morsby once my forces get going in mid 42, maybe the answer is to slow down the land combat effects per day, increasing fatigue from battle etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

I'm all for giving players opportunities to improve on Japanese warfighting decisions, but conceptually there should be SOME degree of "chain-of-command" enforcement. I'm a US Service Academy graduate and chain of command type stuff is something I'm extremely ANAL about. I really liked PACWAR's requirement to spend PP points to move units from one CorpHQ to another.

So not only are players knocking out Singapore a month early and the PI three months early, they are moving those divisions, almost immediately to Burma, New Guinea and the Solomons and taking places like Port Morseby and even Noemea or Suva with them before the Americans can even get the Americal to the South Pacific!!! And much less before there's even remotely enough troop transport to respond to anything....

There's advantage and then there's RIDICULOUSNESS!

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde)
17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ



As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start.

In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time.
In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each
By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men.

Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

I think his point has more to do with historical REALITIES and LOGISTICAL limitations than simply following Japanese strategy and strategic timetables. The thing is, WITP has not really dealt well with the logistic aspects of the game. The idea is there, but thats about it.

-ships repair at unreal speeds
-refit model does not actually require yard time, when in real life, these required many weeks and months
-ports have no operations limits or maximum capacity
-no distinction between a naval base and a fishing wharf for supply purposes
-no real political requirements or force minimums for most part aside from a near endless supply of PPs and Kwantung/China (IE. one can strip Bombay of troops in the face of Japanese threat)
-weather does not have much impact on anything...Monsoons in Burma theatre were had strategic implications but seasons don't even affect movement.

We can go on and on but the implications of these limitations are many. The most obvious is the unrealistic pace with which operations can and will be undertaken by player. It still amazes me that these issues remain unaddressed from one incarnation to the next.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Sounds like you want to watch a re-play of history. With all the mistakes. Where is the fun in that.

Never play me then, I will throw everything and the kitchen sink at you if need be. Be danged if I am going to use divisions to take targets that regiments or brigades can take.
And since I do not have to garrison the PI or Java, I can throw more forces at you anyway than historically was possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

The original question in this thread was:

How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it?

The samething can be said for Allied armies.

They is a definite lack of a command structure in the game, moving units willy nilly around just wasn't done. Thats not to say you can't move them proir to their historical use, but if you do it should cost something. Some form of sliding scale could be used wer the earlier you use them the more it cost. After the date they were historicaly used it costs nothing other than to change cammands. Unfortunately you don't even have to do that, supplies, reinforcements can all be gotten from any base that has enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Southern Area Army was the HQ that controled all IJA units that were to be used in Operatons to the South (SRA at start)(all non China /Manchuria Operations)
Southern Area Army was to reinforce Burma Area Army (yes there was such a HQ)(Burma Area Army controled 15th 28th 33rd Army HQ)

The basic plan was

14th Army take PI and then release units to 15th and 16th, 18th Army's
15th Army advance in Burma (becomes part of Burma Area Army once it leaves Thailand)
16th Army take DEI and then release units to South Pacific Operations (17th Army)
25th Army take Malaya and then release units to 15th and 16th Army
23rd Army (China) Capture Hong Kong and then release 38th Div to 16th Army

17th Army was formed by transfering units from 16th Army
18th Army was formed by transfering units from 14th Army.

The Japanese Army only had 11 Divisons worth of troops to use outside China at start. These formations from the very beginning were planned to move from one Army to another. They always remained under Southern Area Army but changed Army (Japanese Army was a Corps in Western Army with Area Army equal to Western Army)
New Army that were formed were assigned to Southern Area Army or Burma Area Army.
New Army were formed by transfer of units between Army or reinforcements from China/Manchuria.


Div/Bde that served with 14th Army
4th,16th, 20th,48th Div 65th Bde
Div Bde that served with 16th Army
2nd,38th,48th,56th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 15th Army
18th,33rd,55th,56th
Div Bde that served with 25th Army
5th,IG,18th,56th
Div/Bde that served with 17th Army
2nd,38th,51st, 35th Bde
Div/Bde that served with 18th Army
51st (transfered from 17th)
list is not complete but except for units assigned to 15th Army all of the 11 divisons that began war served with at least 2 Army. Southern Area Army controled all units not assigned to Burma/China/Manchuria and reinforced Burma Area as part of plan. They did move where required. There was no problem sending units to any IJA HQ.
I don't have time to go into great detail but to suppose the Japanese did not transfer units between commands avoids history.

The process went something like this.

Southern Area Army conducts all operations not in China/Burma Manchuria.
Burma Area Army does Burma

SAA or BAA request reinforcements from IGHQ
IGHQ directs China or Manchuria to supply unit in return sends new unit as replacement
SAA/BAA get the transfered unit and assign it to Army HQ where required.
SAA/BAA move their units between their Amry HQ at will as needed. (Their Army HQ are really just Corps HQ units move from Corps to Corps in all Army)

It should be up to the Japanese player where he sends units assigned to Southern Area Army. Southern Area Army also employed formations that were not assigned to any army at start. 21st Div 35th Bde IJA Paratroop Units (Dash Forward Div)