17th army, what the...

17th army, what the... (Full Version)

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Huskalator -> 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 8:58:52 PM)
How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it? The command situation for the allies is pretty staright forward but the Japanese command is all jacked up. The Southern Area covers a huge area of the map. Does that mean that Southern Area Units gain benefits from that entire area? Here is my understanding of HQs 1) Ground units stationed at a base in their command or are in HQ radius get combat and supply bonuses. 2) Air units based in HQ radius AND stationed at a base in their command recieve replacements, can fly at full capacity, and can upgrade. How much of that is accurate and what am I missing? One more unrelated question off the top of my head, will the automatic convoy system attempt to supply my factories. This is my first time playing Japanese.

Twotribes -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 9:00:59 PM)
Argh me matey dont use the auto convoy system, it is buggy )

Huskalator -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 9:04:33 PM)
What! Assigning convoys in this UI is not fun. Figuring out my convoys is going to take hours. EDIT: Will routine convoy move around oil and resources?

WiTP_Dude -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 9:10:29 PM)
It takes only a few minutes to do supply convoys. There really aren't that many locations where they need to go. Usually you just send big ones from Japan to places like Truk and Saigon. From there you can send small supply task forces out to smaller places when required.

Huskalator -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 9:19:26 PM)
If I just ship a bunch to Saigon then will that disseminate to the entire SE Asian area? China?

Chris21wen -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/21/2004 9:24:16 PM)
On the real point of you email I think the whole of the HQ command structure is screwed up. I posted a similar problem but with the allies. I've got Army HQ that are supposed command HQs but you can't assign bases to them neither can you assign units.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:08:10 AM)
The entire comand structure for the Japanese is goofy. In reality divisions and brigades were tied to corps HQ's an corp HQ's in turn to regional HQ's. 15th Army divisions went to Burma, 25th to Malaysia and later Sumatra, 16th to Borneo and later Java, 14th to the PI, 17th to the Solomons and 18th to NG. And I don't really recal there ever being a "Burma Area Army" regional HQ. And they DID NOT cannabalize units from one another! At most, corp HQ's like the 17th enlisted the help of smaller SNLF size units borrowed from the Combined Fleet HQ. I really don't want to play another PBEM against a Japanese player without extensive deployment house rules such as no Solomon invasions of ANY kind until the 17th Army HQ has arrived and as well as 17th Army assigned units. No 25th Army divisions can be used in Burma at all, EVER, or at least large PP point expenditures to change from Southern Area Army to Burma Area Army. No lower NG invasions until the 18th Army HQ comes on line an then only with 18th army units! No 14th or 16th Army units without some sort of massive PP expenditure. That's how things REALLY were in the REAL war. We have so many laying claims to what a "hsitorical" simulation this game is yet not one Japanese player I have ever met plays anything close to "historically".

freeboy -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:14:44 AM)
Really ZOOMIE? I wouldn't think these arguements are sound in that the JAp player needs help, lots of it too, or else they will simply be gutted by a competent player using the available 42 forces... that is if they are too agressive. a passive approach, one advocated by several Betas leaves open the whole issue of "what is a realistic 42 strategy for IJN/ IJA in Southern solomans area?

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:21:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy Really ZOOMIE? I wouldn't think these arguements are sound in that the JAp player needs help, lots of it too, or else they will simply be gutted by a competent player using the available 42 forces... that is if they are too agressive. a passive approach, one advocated by several Betas leaves open the whole issue of "what is a realistic 42 strategy for IJN/ IJA in Southern solomans area? I was really miffed by the chosen "chain of command" system, espeically as it pertained to Japan. Historically, all operational commands were Corp level commands and ALL were "restricted" commands to boot. It required very high level decisions to even move idle 16th Army DEI units to the badly depleted 18th Army Command in New Guinea in late 1942 into 1943.

freeboy -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:23:35 AM)
remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable?

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:37:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable? I'm all for giving players opportunities to improve on Japanese warfighting decisions, but conceptually there should be SOME degree of "chain-of-command" enforcement. I'm a US Service Academy graduate and chain of command type stuff is something I'm extremely ANAL about. I really liked PACWAR's requirement to spend PP points to move units from one CorpHQ to another. So not only are players knocking out Singapore a month early and the PI three months early, they are moving those divisions, almost immediately to Burma, New Guinea and the Solomons and taking places like Port Morseby and even Noemea or Suva with them before the Americans can even get the Americal to the South Pacific!!! And much less before there's even remotely enough troop transport to respond to anything.... There's advantage and then there's RIDICULOUSNESS!

Tophat -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:41:41 AM)
Zoomie, Fine then why don't you play the Japs the "way they should be deployed" and i'll play the allies? I'm by no means a strategic genius,so the Allies will startout handicaped.

freeboy -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:47:55 AM)
Works both ways the US can move troops in JAn that should be still fitting out and can start new Zealanmd and Brit/oz troops to slow down these advances, and remember theose advances need to be supported by supply coinvoys good luck trying to supply port morsby once my forces get going in mid 42, maybe the answer is to slow down the land combat effects per day, increasing fatigue from battle etc.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 12:54:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy Works both ways the US can move troops in JAn that should be still fitting out and can start new Zealanmd and Brit/oz troops to slow down these advances, and remember theose advances need to be supported by supply coinvoys good luck trying to supply port morsby once my forces get going in mid 42, maybe the answer is to slow down the land combat effects per day, increasing fatigue from battle etc. I play Lemur #26 only. DRASTICALLY reduced Allied OOB to start out. No 2nd Marines, no mythical NZ units. And almost ALL bases set to 0 or 1 airfield size to start with base units all 14 or less in aviation support. As Allies you get one lousy RAC unit in Feb for the South Pacific, one USA Div for Southwest in Mar. That's IT! And for aviation support you have to wait until Feb to get your first Aviation Rgt for the Southwest Pac and your first base units for South pacific don't start arriving with aviation support until late March! By then late Feb a lot of the Jap players have taken the PI in Jan and then moved the entire 14th Army to Rabaul or Lae in NG and will rampage south through Port Morseby and Noumea before the first US Inf Division even arrives! Lemur has teh OOB almost right but the rules are still nuts.

2ndACR -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 2:44:31 AM)
Sounds like you want to watch a re-play of history. With all the mistakes. Where is the fun in that. Never play me then, I will throw everything and the kitchen sink at you if need be. Be danged if I am going to use divisions to take targets that regiments or brigades can take. And since I do not have to garrison the PI or Java, I can throw more forces at you anyway than historically was possible.

mogami -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:34:41 AM)
Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde) 17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start. In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time. In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men. Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds)

Ron Saueracker -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 1:58:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy remember all those pp one had to spend in PACWAR, that really made life hard for the JAp, my thoughts are while you probably have a very valid arguement, isn't playability within the realm of reason, reasonable? I'm all for giving players opportunities to improve on Japanese warfighting decisions, but conceptually there should be SOME degree of "chain-of-command" enforcement. I'm a US Service Academy graduate and chain of command type stuff is something I'm extremely ANAL about. I really liked PACWAR's requirement to spend PP points to move units from one CorpHQ to another. So not only are players knocking out Singapore a month early and the PI three months early, they are moving those divisions, almost immediately to Burma, New Guinea and the Solomons and taking places like Port Morseby and even Noemea or Suva with them before the Americans can even get the Americal to the South Pacific!!! And much less before there's even remotely enough troop transport to respond to anything.... There's advantage and then there's RIDICULOUSNESS! Well said. Some sort of operations limitations would help for sure.

Twotribes -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 2:17:33 PM)
The current restricted HQs doesnt allow for moving units by sea, so making all commands restricted wont work. I honestly think the Japanese player should pay PP for moving forces from one area to another, BUT if that was implemented they would need to recieve more than 50 PP a day or some of the historical moves wouldnt be possible. Then you would have them moving forces from China maybe. The way the hqs are, unless you get a read out on who went where you cant know what division or unit fought where.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 2:17:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde) 17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start. In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time. In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men. Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds) I think his point has more to do with historical REALITIES and LOGISTICAL limitations than simply following Japanese strategy and strategic timetables. The thing is, WITP has not really dealt well with the logistic aspects of the game. The idea is there, but thats about it. -ships repair at unreal speeds -refit model does not actually require yard time, when in real life, these required many weeks and months -ports have no operations limits or maximum capacity -no distinction between a naval base and a fishing wharf for supply purposes -no real political requirements or force minimums for most part aside from a near endless supply of PPs and Kwantung/China (IE. one can strip Bombay of troops in the face of Japanese threat) -weather does not have much impact on anything...Monsoons in Burma theatre were had strategic implications but seasons don't even affect movement. We can go on and on but the implications of these limitations are many. The most obvious is the unrealistic pace with which operations can and will be undertaken by player. It still amazes me that these issues remain unaddressed from one incarnation to the next.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 4:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde) 17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start. In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time. In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men. Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds) But there MUST be some sort of cost for drawing units from one command to another. And the Southern was a REGIONAL HQ not a Corps HQ, which is another historical falacy in the game. The restrictions should be at the CORE HQ level NOT the regional level. The restrictions reflect the large reluctance of Corp commanders to let go of troops and the angst and in-fighting that happened at the Regional command level over these mass reorganizations. They did them, for sure, but they paid large POLITICAL costs for doing so and that should be reflected. The notion I can take the Imperial Guards from Singapore and 10 days later have them fighting in New Guinea with no PP cost is completely assinine. And I personally think Lemur's #26 is VASTLY SUPERIOR to #15/16 in the shipping game. And his beta is even better. The only missing thing I can see are the C46 units in the CBI, which I can cure with my own editor. I wouldn't play anyone PBEM in a campaign with anything else. Lemur has the correct model the shipping game does NOT.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 4:30:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Hi, Why bother playing as Japan if you have to just follow the historic plan? The 17th and 18th Army drew their formations from the other Army's. (17th Army had among other formations the 2nd Div and 38th Div. Both drawn from Southern Area Army HQ's as well as the 35th Bde) 17th Army in fact was composed completly from units reassigned from other Army HQ As for the USMC Lemur is wrong not to have the 2nd Mar Div at start. In 1939 the USMC was 2 Bde (really Regt) one on East Coast and 1 on West Coast the USMC had approx 20k men at this time. In Feb 1941 the 2 Bde organized as Divisions of 3 Inf Rgt 1 Arty Rgt and 1 Eng Rgt each By Nov 1941 the USMC had 65k men. Both units should begin long war scenarios at around 33-50 percent TOE. Because USMC sqds are limited the player can only build 1 div at a time however both should be on map in case Japanese player gets frisky the 2nd Mar Div did exist. (The unit can train as it builds) I think his point has more to do with historical REALITIES and LOGISTICAL limitations than simply following Japanese strategy and strategic timetables. The thing is, WITP has not really dealt well with the logistic aspects of the game. The idea is there, but thats about it. -ships repair at unreal speeds -refit model does not actually require yard time, when in real life, these required many weeks and months -ports have no operations limits or maximum capacity -no distinction between a naval base and a fishing wharf for supply purposes -no real political requirements or force minimums for most part aside from a near endless supply of PPs and Kwantung/China (IE. one can strip Bombay of troops in the face of Japanese threat) -weather does not have much impact on anything...Monsoons in Burma theatre were had strategic implications but seasons don't even affect movement. We can go on and on but the implications of these limitations are many. The most obvious is the unrealistic pace with which operations can and will be undertaken by player. It still amazes me that these issues remain unaddressed from one incarnation to the next. Yes, its like it is there in enough quantity to let us know the designers recognized these were factors, but just barely. I understand a lot of things were done in the interest of game balance and game play, and the reason they probably went with HQ's functioning the way they function. Unfortunately it results in completely RIDICULOUS troop movements. There should be some kind of significant cost to reflect heavy burden of making such fundemental strategic decisions, especially in terms of reflectiong opportunity costs. Part of the reason the shipping version scenarios have bogus marine divsions and fantasy NZ units is to counter Japanese running wild in the south with units freed from very early conquests in the PI or Malaysia. Well the reason they can run wild in the first place are these unrealistic troop movement allowances! Moving a 14th Army PI division to the 17th Army Solomon command or the 18th Army New Guinea command should cost roughly 1000 PP at the VERY LEAST! Not to mention the extreme cost that should be incurred to allow IJA forces to take over IJN offensive operations in the Solomons. That's something that had to be approved all the way back in Tokyo with Tojo and Yamamoto himself, hell probably even the Emperor! This is big reason why this model would fail and fail miserably if used to create a new War In Russia. There is no real command structure in the game to speak of.

Chris21wen -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:00:52 PM)
The original question in this thread was: How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it? The samething can be said for Allied armies. They is a definite lack of a command structure in the game, moving units willy nilly around just wasn't done. Thats not to say you can't move them proir to their historical use, but if you do it should cost something. Some form of sliding scale could be used wer the earlier you use them the more it cost. After the date they were historicaly used it costs nothing other than to change cammands. Unfortunately you don't even have to do that, supplies, reinforcements can all be gotten from any base that has enough.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:04:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2ndACR Sounds like you want to watch a re-play of history. With all the mistakes. Where is the fun in that. Never play me then, I will throw everything and the kitchen sink at you if need be. Be danged if I am going to use divisions to take targets that regiments or brigades can take. And since I do not have to garrison the PI or Java, I can throw more forces at you anyway than historically was possible. The Japanese did move large formations of troops from the PI and DEI operations to places like New Guinea, eventually. But it took time because of political and very realistic logistical and most importantly, command and control issues. None of this was a "mistake", just the realities of high level command and strategic troop movement. These issues of strategic delpoyment are Universal fundementals of warfighting and taught at the Air, Army and Naval War College in the US and elsewhere. I obviously would never play someone like you. When I play Japan I always restrict myself to REALISTIC troop movement whether the game enforces it or not. I can still play aggresively and still do better than history, but I am comfortable that I am doing so within REALISTIC operational and strategic limitations. Nothing enters Burma without being formally assigned to the Burma Area Army. Nothing gets to go to Rabaul and points south until it belongs to the Southeast Fleet. Nothing gets into China without being assigned to the Chinese Expeditionary Army. Wish there was something to represent New Guinea, etc... I just wish the game enforced more of these better than it does.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:10:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chris H The original question in this thread was: How come there are Japanese bases attatched to the 17th army but no actual units attatched to it? The samething can be said for Allied armies. They is a definite lack of a command structure in the game, moving units willy nilly around just wasn't done. Thats not to say you can't move them proir to their historical use, but if you do it should cost something. Some form of sliding scale could be used wer the earlier you use them the more it cost. After the date they were historicaly used it costs nothing other than to change cammands. Unfortunately you don't even have to do that, supplies, reinforcements can all be gotten from any base that has enough. Yea, and I have trouble with some base assignments, as well, in terms of trying to change them. I would like to convert a lot of northern Aussie bases (everything from Brisbane, north eventually) to Southwest Pacific and for some reason some will convert, some won't, even with plenty of PP available and properly located HQ units and such. I've read the manual about what needs to be where to make it happen but things don't always seem actually happen that way. I will have to copy off a save game the next time I encounter something like that.

mogami -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:12:09 PM)
Hi, Southern Area Army was the HQ that controled all IJA units that were to be used in Operatons to the South (SRA at start)(all non China /Manchuria Operations) Southern Area Army was to reinforce Burma Area Army (yes there was such a HQ)(Burma Area Army controled 15th 28th 33rd Army HQ) The basic plan was 14th Army take PI and then release units to 15th and 16th, 18th Army's 15th Army advance in Burma (becomes part of Burma Area Army once it leaves Thailand) 16th Army take DEI and then release units to South Pacific Operations (17th Army) 25th Army take Malaya and then release units to 15th and 16th Army 23rd Army (China) Capture Hong Kong and then release 38th Div to 16th Army 17th Army was formed by transfering units from 16th Army 18th Army was formed by transfering units from 14th Army. The Japanese Army only had 11 Divisons worth of troops to use outside China at start. These formations from the very beginning were planned to move from one Army to another. They always remained under Southern Area Army but changed Army (Japanese Army was a Corps in Western Army with Area Army equal to Western Army) New Army that were formed were assigned to Southern Area Army or Burma Area Army. New Army were formed by transfer of units between Army or reinforcements from China/Manchuria. Div/Bde that served with 14th Army 4th,16th, 20th,48th Div 65th Bde Div Bde that served with 16th Army 2nd,38th,48th,56th Bde Div/Bde that served with 15th Army 18th,33rd,55th,56th Div Bde that served with 25th Army 5th,IG,18th,56th Div/Bde that served with 17th Army 2nd,38th,51st, 35th Bde Div/Bde that served with 18th Army 51st (transfered from 17th) list is not complete but except for units assigned to 15th Army all of the 11 divisons that began war served with at least 2 Army. Southern Area Army controled all units not assigned to Burma/China/Manchuria and reinforced Burma Area as part of plan. They did move where required. There was no problem sending units to any IJA HQ. I don't have time to go into great detail but to suppose the Japanese did not transfer units between commands avoids history. The process went something like this. Southern Area Army conducts all operations not in China/Burma Manchuria. Burma Area Army does Burma SAA or BAA request reinforcements from IGHQ IGHQ directs China or Manchuria to supply unit in return sends new unit as replacement SAA/BAA get the transfered unit and assign it to Army HQ where required. SAA/BAA move their units between their Amry HQ at will as needed. (Their Army HQ are really just Corps HQ units move from Corps to Corps in all Army) It should be up to the Japanese player where he sends units assigned to Southern Area Army. Southern Area Army also employed formations that were not assigned to any army at start. 21st Div 35th Bde IJA Paratroop Units (Dash Forward Div)

Chris21wen -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 5:17:27 PM)
I must admit I've not had any problem like this other than when I was play a small scenario then you can't change anything (its a bug I think), I've also only played Scen 12. One thing I have learnt is you also need a ground unit in the base that belongs to the HQ you want to change to. Did you mean ground units or the actual HQ?

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 7:29:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Hi, Southern Area Army was the HQ that controled all IJA units that were to be used in Operatons to the South (SRA at start)(all non China /Manchuria Operations) Southern Area Army was to reinforce Burma Area Army (yes there was such a HQ)(Burma Area Army controled 15th 28th 33rd Army HQ) The basic plan was 14th Army take PI and then release units to 15th and 16th, 18th Army's 15th Army advance in Burma (becomes part of Burma Area Army once it leaves Thailand) 16th Army take DEI and then release units to South Pacific Operations (17th Army) 25th Army take Malaya and then release units to 15th and 16th Army 23rd Army (China) Capture Hong Kong and then release 38th Div to 16th Army 17th Army was formed by transfering units from 16th Army 18th Army was formed by transfering units from 14th Army. The Japanese Army only had 11 Divisons worth of troops to use outside China at start. These formations from the very beginning were planned to move from one Army to another. They always remained under Southern Area Army but changed Army (Japanese Army was a Corps in Western Army with Area Army equal to Western Army) New Army that were formed were assigned to Southern Area Army or Burma Area Army. New Army were formed by transfer of units between Army or reinforcements from China/Manchuria. Div/Bde that served with 14th Army 4th,16th, 20th,48th Div 65th Bde Div Bde that served with 16th Army 2nd,38th,48th,56th Bde Div/Bde that served with 15th Army 18th,33rd,55th,56th Div Bde that served with 25th Army 5th,IG,18th,56th Div/Bde that served with 17th Army 2nd,38th,51st, 35th Bde Div/Bde that served with 18th Army 51st (transfered from 17th) list is not complete but except for units assigned to 15th Army all of the 11 divisons that began war served with at least 2 Army. Southern Area Army controled all units not assigned to Burma/China/Manchuria and reinforced Burma Area as part of plan. They did move where required. There was no problem sending units to any IJA HQ. I don't have time to go into great detail but to suppose the Japanese did not transfer units between commands avoids history. The process went something like this. Southern Area Army conducts all operations not in China/Burma Manchuria. Burma Area Army does Burma SAA or BAA request reinforcements from IGHQ IGHQ directs China or Manchuria to supply unit in return sends new unit as replacement SAA/BAA get the transfered unit and assign it to Army HQ where required. SAA/BAA move their units between their Amry HQ at will as needed. (Their Army HQ are really just Corps HQ units move from Corps to Corps in all Army) It should be up to the Japanese player where he sends units assigned to Southern Area Army. Southern Area Army also employed formations that were not assigned to any army at start. 21st Div 35th Bde IJA Paratroop Units (Dash Forward Div) First off nice revisionist or over-simplified history there. This jist of that is true, the reality of the execution was NOT true...at least in time frame it happens in the game. There is STILL a SIGNIFICANT cost in move divisional size forces between Corps HQ's. There is more to logistical support than just getting supply to a unit. And this whole discussion completely ignores all the complex issues of command and control when divisional size forces switch operational Corp commands. There are reasons why the 1st Amoured and 4th Inv divisions took so long to get to Iraq that go well beyond problems with Turkey and the ports in the Perision Gulf. Bottom line, there should be COST to move large units from Corp to Corp that reflect the REALITIES of doing such. Sure, it happenned, but it happenned with REAL cost in terms of TIME involved. In the game it takes a few days to move the 2nd Div from the PI to Lae in New Guinea. In reality, such a move would take literally WEEKS, perhaps MONTHS to make happen. Even in Malaysia and Burma where forces in the two theaters were connected by rail lines, and units could move comparitavely quick, players will capture Singapore and within four days or so have half the inf divisions in Malaysia moved to Rangoon ready to move on Mandalay. That is simply RIDICULOUS and there is NO historical justification to back that kind of capability up. If thats part of a game balance issue, fine, but it has NO basis in reality.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 7:42:07 PM)
And in addition there is no penalty for altering a pre-war strategic operational plan. I agree that most of what Mogami states about the pre-war unit delpoyment is, at a very high level, how they indeed planned to go about their business. But 1) Players often are not aware that that particular plan ever existed. They usually have no plan at all when it comes to, on turn one, planning that Div X is going to do this, then that and then that....they just seat-of-pants the whole thing. 2) If, two months into the war, the some in the high command decided they overestimated in some place and underestimated in other, changing the pre-war plan would have caused GREAT angst among the staff. Palyers neither make detailed force deployment decisions on turn nor stick to them very long if they have them because there is no penalty. The only way to model these realities is apply a PP requirment to move forces between theaters. Perhaps a "planned" PP level with relatively low cost, and an "unplanned" PP level with very high cost. But barring that obvious major design change there should be at least SOME cost in the form of PP points, to moving units all over the map in willy-nilly fashion without regard to chain of command issues and CCC issues.

RoyalOak -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 8:11:13 PM)
I do not see your point Zoomie. I think a player should assign units to HQ not to match history (if I want/plan to send an army in a specific point, it's my choice), but because the game REWARDS this. IMHO, it's already the case. If you want to get replacements, to get the HQ combat bonus, you have no choice but to assign correct HQ, and keep an organized chain of command. That is, good and efficient play forces you to keep it this way. The PP penalty to reassign troops and bases is already rather large. Remember too that there is another big penalty to change destination of units with a very short delay : you lose all the bonus associated to prep points. This, again, can make a HUGE difference in combat results. Add to this fatigue and disruption just to move your units around. So, sending a 14th army units in China with very short delay should not be prohibited because this is ahistorical, but because by all concern it's a bad move in the game.

2ndACR -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/22/2004 8:33:03 PM)
You can not make a comparison of todays divisions to WW2 divisions, much less the Japanese divisions. In WW2 they could say "I need 100 ships to move these 2 divisions somewhere" and the answer was "sure no problem". Now a days, that would be all the US flagged merchant shipping. We do not have the shipping in this day and age to move more than a Heavy division at a time. And for the record the 2nd ACR in Desert Storm was uploaded in Bremerhaven, Germany in 3 days, sailed for 14 days to Jubail, Saudi Arabia and was off loaded in 3 days. It took 3 ships to haul all our equipment.

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