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RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 2:17:09 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
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From: Reno, Nevada
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Sure, it would cost less to produce a game without A.I. but as you yourself have stated, few would buy it.

It has probably been mentioned but HPS has Aide DE Camp. It takes hundreds of board games and converts them to a non A.I. computer games with good graphics.

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 61

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 2:30:51 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Yep, and there are a stack of VASSAL playable games out there too. More than I realised until a few days ago. But they are still not as easy to play as a game with the rules built in from the start. It's that issue with the detail of the rules, and also with making multiplayer computer games cheat proof (by providing more resources to the programmers) that are on my wish list.

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 62

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 2:40:45 AM

wodin

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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

No, on the contrary what do you say to the people who have a choice of ASL without the AI, or no game at all because the cost of making an effective AI is prohibitively high? Now that quite simply isn't fair, holding everybody else hostage over a game just because you insist it must have AI to be sold.

Ive never heard of any game not being made beause programming an AI is to expensive. Who is it that wants to make a conversion of ASL but cant as they cant afford to do the AI? Everygame now caters for either AI and some kind of human vs human. Again why not make a poll on this site as to whether you would by a game with no AI. This will give you an answer on how many customers would be lost.

Look, ASL and WIF I'd play against a human more often than not. However I'd also want to play against an AI when I felt like it. Its good way to learn the mechanics of a new game anyway.

If the AI is rubbish then the game will go down the pan. So what. To me this means the developer has rushed out the product or isnt that good in the first place so the game without an AI would be pretty bad aswell.

So can you tell me the games that arent being developed by someone as they cant afford an AI? As Ive never heard of any.

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 63

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 2:48:04 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

If the AI is rubbish then the game will go down the pan. So what. To me this means the developer has rushed out the product or isnt that good in the first place so the game without an AI would be pretty bad aswell.

So can you tell me the games that arent being developed by someone as they cant afford an AI? As Ive never heard of any.

What is this before me, a flash of realisation that bad AI's are bad games? What games aren't being developed right now? I have no idea. ASL and WiF? Lock 'n Load? PanzerBlitz? Is this related to the Jihad?

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/6/2004 12:48:12 AM >

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 64

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 2:51:43 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John to Wodin

Now about this statement of yours: "I really believe that having an AI doesnt make a lesser product in anyway." The question is not about the game being a lesser product as long as you are not paying for an AI that can put up a fight...

Well, John I must say that a person who leads a debate claiming a knowledge of what the hobby is clamouring for without having researched his assertions really does provide some entertainment - for a short while. John, as you've repeated a few times now I really do believe that you just "don't understand". It is all about the industry's value of it's games:

_____

"WiF: The Computer game... World in Flames(tm) Final(ly) on the computer. The entire world is represented on the European scale on a wrap-around map of the world. At 360 x 195 hexes, this is the largest computer wargame ever produced.

You will no doubt be pleased to hear that we are now in the position of having finalised 95% of the code if you exclude the Artificial Intelligence component. As to the production of the AI, we have had many conflicting views from our customers, some saying we can't produce a version without the AI, others that the AI doesn't matter.

To resolve this issue, ADG has decided to produce a pre-release version of the game which will exclude the AI. This version will be sold at a 33% reduction in price of the final release game (50% discount for LoC subscribers). Furthermore, those who buy the pre-release version will get the final version for 50% off as well. We hope that this approach will satisfy all (or nearly all) our valued customers..."

_____

John - that's ADG before coming on board with Matrix. Seems 66% of retail value in the industry's eyes rests with the AI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

Of course if you are going to lose more than 10% of your sales accordingly then it is a bad decision.

You're really loosing this debate of yours badly

Adam.

PS: Got my maths wrong too - 33% of the market.
PPS: Could be too harsh on myself there - 33 to 50% of the market

< Message edited by Adam Parker -- 11/6/2004 10:55:17 AM >

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 65

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 3:33:47 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John to Wodin

Now about this statement of yours: "I really believe that having an AI doesnt make a lesser product in anyway." The question is not about the game being a lesser product as long as you are not paying for an AI that can put up a fight...

Well, John I must say that a person who leads a debate claiming a knowledge of what the hobby is clamouring for without having researched his assertions really does provide some entertainment - for a short while. John, as you've repeated a few times now I really do believe that you just "don't understand". It is all about the industry's value of it's games:

_____

"WiF: The Computer game... World in Flames(tm) Final(ly) on the computer. The entire world is represented on the European scale on a wrap-around map of the world. At 360 x 195 hexes, this is the largest computer wargame ever produced.

You will no doubt be pleased to hear that we are now in the position of having finalised 95% of the code if you exclude the Artificial Intelligence component. As to the production of the AI, we have had many conflicting views from our customers, some saying we can't produce a version without the AI, others that the AI doesn't matter.

To resolve this issue, ADG has decided to produce a pre-release version of the game which will exclude the AI. This version will be sold at a 33% reduction in price of the final release game (50% discount for LoC subscribers). Furthermore, those who buy the pre-release version will get the final version for 50% off as well. We hope that this approach will satisfy all (or nearly all) our valued customers..."

_____

John - that's ADG before coming on board with Matrix. Seems 66% of retail value in the industry's eyes rests with the AI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

Of course if you are going to lose more than 10% of your sales accordingly then it is a bad decision.

You're really loosing this debate of yours badly

Adam.

PS: Got my maths wrong too - 33% of the market.
PPS: Could be too harsh on myself there - 33 to 50% of the market

Umm whatever you reackon. The only thing that I'm debating is that the AI costs money to produce and that money could be used for other things. And I'm also stating that I want to see games produced with more effort put into the rest of the game at the expense of the AI.

Never have I claimed to know what the industry needs, that's all in your mind (along with a few other things). But I do know what I would like to see (no research required there you know). You on the other hand seem to just want to be contrary just because I won't sit back and lap up all your sagely comments about "the industry". Too bad for you I guess. Of course it doesn't affect me either way because I have no doubt's about how the gaming industry is going to keep on going about it's merry way regardless of what I want or you have to say. You take yourself far too seriously in this respect.

Now about the WiF conversion, it was over a year ago that the move to Matrix was announced, and it's likely to be another year before we see a non beta product. I'm not holding my breath on this at all, and I'll be very pragmatic about the final result, with or without AI. As for pricing I refuse to believe anythign other than the total which appears on my credit card bill when I finally get to buy it.

And feel free to explain why a game that features fog-of-war in a two player game needs an AI. I can wait for as long as you wish to prepare an answer but I won't stop asking.

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/6/2004 1:34:35 AM >

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 66

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 4:49:44 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

Never have I claimed to know what the industry needs, that's all in your mind (along with a few other things)...

Oh well John, the basis of your offensive here seems to be personal vindictiveness. So do have fun with yourself - LOL you're playing solitaire afterall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

And feel free to explain why a game that features fog-of-war in a two player game needs an AI. I can wait for as long as you wish to prepare an answer but I won't stop asking.

Cool! Wasn't my contention

However, it was, that to play a two player game without an umpire and hence fog of war, is to be war gaming circa 1950.

What you still refuse to see is that the very latest board war games released today, carry solitaire ratings.

Either way, you didn't believe the military is investing in war games, that this investment includes financing AI development and that the industry rates the loss of revenue by failing to include an AI, as more than 10% of gross. You've been shown otherwise on all. Might be time for you to pull out an old copy of the General and look up the debate on both solitaire ratings and the virtues of umpired play.

Happy gaming and keep enjoying the hobby. Look forward to seeing your math in getting those geomorphic LOS charts going across every ASL map combination, not withstanding that you're happy to invest in the collection one bit at a time! Just the multitudinous combinations of 2 maps should keep the better of the mathematcians amongst us going for a while. And I'm not declaring I'm anywhere near one of that fraternity - as my previous math attests

Adam.

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 67

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 6:32:06 AM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

Never have I claimed to know what the industry needs, that's all in your mind (along with a few other things)...

Oh well John, the basis of your offensive here seems to be personal vindictiveness. So do have fun with yourself - LOL you're playing solitaire afterall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

And feel free to explain why a game that features fog-of-war in a two player game needs an AI. I can wait for as long as you wish to prepare an answer but I won't stop asking.

Cool! Wasn't my contention However, it was, that to play a two player game without an umpire and hence fog of war, is to be war gaming circa 1950.

What you still refuse to see is that the very latest board war games released today, carry solitaire ratings.

Either way, you didn't believe the military is investing in war games, that this investment includes financing AI development and that the industry rates the loss of revenue by failing to include an AI, as more than 10% of gross. You've been shown otherwise on all. Might be time for you to pull out an old copy of the General and look up the debate on both solitaire ratings and the virtues of umpired play.

Happy gaming and keep enjoying the hobby. Look forward to seeing your math in getting those geomorphic LOS charts going across every ASL map combination, not withstanding that you're happy to invest in the collection one bit at a time! Just the multitudinous combinations of 2 maps should keep the better of the mathematcians amongst us going for a while. And I'm not declaring I'm anywhere near one of that fraternity - as my previous math attests

Adam.

Oh now that's funny, I didn't think you were taking those numbers I made up seriously. Come on now, I'm trying to drink coffee and you're making me laugh. That is hilarious. I just made up those numbers as examples of how a game like I want could be possible if the numbers were right, because it what it comes down to, numbers, profits and return on investment. Game making is not a charity. Damn I think I'm going to laugh for an hour. You must realise that if my numbers were even half real that AI-less games would be popping up all over the place and my views would be commonplace and not the only person here saying it. Next time I'll have to put "if" in big bold block letters. At least that explains why you are so holier-than-thou, serious about all this. Too bad though, thats your own problem. Oh dear, that IS funny.

Oh and the military is investing a lot in AI and also battlefield simulations, but it's not just for gaming.

But anyway that has nothing to do with your reasons for why an umpired game (a two playered computer game with fog-of-war) that you need an AI. What is the role of the AI when the computer is hiding what the players can't see according to lOS rules etc? Is there a necessity for the AI to move some unit's which are out of the players control? If that is your reason then I can go along with it but that does not seem to be a function of umpiring and fog of war. So why does an umpired game need an AI?

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 68

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/6/2004 4:51:48 PM

wodin

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From: England
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Prester John,

You have been making posts about how you would prefer games without an AI. However you can treally give any valid reasons why it should be the case. All you do is presume. You presume games are held hostage by people who want an AI thus they are never made. You then go onto to economics but the figures you used have no basis in fact. You make the presumption that if a developer doesnt invest in an AI the game will be better. I dont think so. If a developer wants to make a true conversion of ASL with an AI they will. If they want to make a true conversion of ASL without an AI they will. I havent heard of a true wargame made that had to have mechanics cut so they could spend time on the AI. What happens in real life is the game gets delayed.

ALL you will get with a game with no AI is just that a game with no AI. The same game can be released with an AI, you dont have to choose, AI = bad game, No AI = good game. All an AI does is give those who havent the means to play online a chance to play the game. To me there is no harm in that and I truely believe that a game like Squad Battles is no worse off for it.

You also stated that you never claimed knowledge of the Industry.

Read your posts again. For one instance I said that to have games made without an AI is selfish as you are not consdidering other game players. You the stated that those who want an AI are stopping games being made for those who do not. This to me shows some kind of knowledge. You see if you dont know of any, where I sated a fact, you stated a reply with no substance whatsoever.

Youve also made comments about game economics. The you turn around and say youve made them up to back your argument. So all in all as a debater you arent to good. If for instance you showed me evidence of games that ahvent been made as the public want an AI and the developer cant afford it. Or show me a poll where a majority of wargame players would rather buy a game without an AI than wone with then you would have some credibility.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/6/2004 2:59:35 PM >

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 69

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 2:32:17 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Prester John,

You have been making posts about how you would prefer games without an AI. However you can treally give any valid reasons why it should be the case. All you do is presume. You presume games are held hostage by people who want an AI thus they are never made. You then go onto to economics but the figures you used have no basis in fact. You make the presumption that if a developer doesnt invest in an AI the game will be better. I dont think so. If a developer wants to make a true conversion of ASL with an AI they will. If they want to make a true conversion of ASL without an AI they will. I havent heard of a true wargame made that had to have mechanics cut so they could spend time on the AI. What happens in real life is the game gets delayed.

All right lets go through this slowly. I am not presuming that I would like to own ASL and WiF that are played exactly the same way as the board games are (not PBEM). I know that is what I want. I also know that these games will never be made that way because they don't accommodate the unwashed masses who insist upon an AI. And nobody cuts effort on an AI because they are usually so bad that they need all the help they can get. More likely is that other things get cut (like PBEM security) so that more work can be done on the AI.

quote:

ALL you will get with a game with no AI is just that a game with no AI. The same game can be released with an AI, you dont have to choose, AI = bad game, No AI = good game. All an AI does is give those who havent the means to play online a chance to play the game. To me there is no harm in that and I truely believe that a game like Squad Battles is no worse off for it.

But if a reasonable AI is impossible to produce then the game is therefore impossible to produce, right?

quote:

You also stated that you never claimed knowledge of the Industry.

Read your posts again. For one instance I said that to have games made without an AI is selfish as you are not consdidering other game players. You the stated that those who want an AI are stopping games being made for those who do not. This to me shows some kind of knowledge. You see if you dont know of any, where I sated a fact, you stated a reply with no substance whatsoever.

Youve also made comments about game economics. The you turn around and say youve made them up to back your argument. So all in all as a debater you arent to good. If for instance you showed me evidence of games that ahvent been made as the public want an AI and the developer cant afford it. Or show me a poll where a majority of wargame players would rather buy a game without an AI than wone with then you would have some credibility.

I've made comments about the principles of economics and I've generated made up numbers as examples for those principles. Now if you are too silly to realise the difference then that is your own problem. If you think that game publishers operate as charities then you are sadly mistaken. If they come out in the red their business fails unless they have a rich uncle. This is a fact that I am familiar with.

Another other fact is that you do not have to have an AI to sell a game. Of course you may not sell any, but the AI or lack thereof is not a prerequisite to selling a game and this is proved by the number of board games being sold around the place. The last fact is that producing an AI costs money to program. Do you still deny any of these facts?

Now has that sunk in? Games do not need an AI and I'm the only one sitting here saying that I'd like to see AI-less PC versions of good games therefore they are very unlikely to see as a replacement for boardgames. Therefore I'm going to be stuck with using my dining room table as a game table for some time, and games not being any quicker to play or set up than they could be if they were in a computer game format.

And lastly, since you haven't bothered to mention it yet, how good does an AI have to be to count as an AI for you? Does it have to be able to beat the average player 50% of the time? Does it even have to be able to beat the average player. Just what sort of programming effort counts as an AI? I could see ASL being made with an AI that could move a few counters around in the general direction of the VC's but not having any skill at all when it comes to correct use of fire groups and phases. In other words it would offer no challenge at all, just target practice. Do you still count that as an AI? If so then it will be quite easy produce to AI for a lot of board games with only a week of programming. Would that satisfy your demands for an AI? I just want to see how selfish you are in your requirements of an AI that at least one person doesn't want.

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/7/2004 12:33:24 AM >

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 70

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:32:22 AM

wodin

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All I want is for myself and others to be able to play a game without the need for another human. THATS THE BEAUTY OF PC WARGAMES!! Ive palyed a fair few games SB,HTTR and CM come to mind where the AI was good enough to beat me and its beaten others. It can be done.

You dont want an AI because setting up your boardgame takes to long.

Why dont you take a programming course and develop it yourself?

You already have VASL and aide so I cant see what your complaining about. What you want is covered.

Finally have you played Squad Battles or HTTR? I think you will find the AI is good enough and Im certain the games havent suffered because its included. AND you can actually play against another human!! The miralce of modern technology:)

Thats me signing off on this post. Ive said what I wanted to say and I sense this man is getting rather angry. He is also insulting. I did say he was selfish but I feel his wants are. I know Im not.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/7/2004 2:40:34 AM >

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 71

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:38:52 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
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From: Reno, Nevada
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I think Mr. P. John is just having a little fun with us

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Lew Fisher

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Post #: 72

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:40:37 AM

PresbyterJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

All I want is for myself and others to be able to play a game without the need for another human. THATS THE BEAUTY OF PC WARGAMES!!

You dont want an AI because setting up your boardgame takes to long.

Why dont you take a programming course and develop it yourself?

You already have VASL and aide so I cant see what your complaining about. What you want is covered.

No it's not covered. Pay attention here. The rules need to be built in to speed up play too. Removing the physical board is only half of it. The rest is about controlling the rules and making the game even easier to play.

Develop it myself? I have a full time job where I earn money to spend on my hobbies (amongst other things). I quite happily pay a lot for what I want for the express purpose of not having to learn to do it myself.

Anyway I take it that the facts have finally sunk in.

Now what about your opinion of what is a reasonable AI? And when is a reasonabale AI not possible?

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 73

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:41:23 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
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No need to wag the finger.

CM,SB and HTTR all have an AI which is fine and many are happy with it.

Your tone is very arrogant and condensending. I bet youve got a few peoples back up on forums before now.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/7/2004 2:43:37 AM >

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 74

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:53:39 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
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From: Reno, Nevada
Status: offline

I was wagging the finger at Mr. P. John. I am on your side i like games with A.I. You seem a bit touchy?

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 75

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 5:24:31 AM

PresbyterJohn

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Look folks I'm sorry if there are some of you don't like playing games against other people but I do. And I want to do it as easily as possible. Will I get what I want. Not likely. Will more games be made with woeful AI to keep Wodin happy. Yep, by the dozen. Of course woeful is my description. What I now want to know is what woeful really is. Wodin gives me the impression that it just has to move and fire a few counters and that makes it an AI regardless of it's ability to beat the average player. And Mr Parker says "That umpire is also known as Fog of War and FOW is best applied via an AI." He appears to have a completely different idea which he also refuses to explain.

So anyway what is an acceptable AI that you folks are happy to pay for?

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/7/2004 5:33:53 AM >

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 76

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 5:38:39 AM

PresbyterJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LewFisher

I think Mr. P. John is just having a little fun with us

So you noticed that nobody complained when I said dump the AI in favour of better rule books or manuals. I thought that was rather odd but never mind.

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 77

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 5:42:32 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
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From: Reno, Nevada
Status: offline

There are chess programs out there that play at a master's level (try their A.I. on for size). However, with chess, there is a limited number of squares and one primary victory condition. With most wargames being so complex, with so many hexes and victory conditions, there probably will never be an A.I. that would satisfy you or play on a master level. Here is one method to solve the problem. Stop trying to beat the A.I. just play the game was if you were a real battlefield commander. That's what I have done in the past for games with lesser A.I.'s.

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 78

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 5:51:48 AM

LewFisher

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From: Reno, Nevada
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Actually, I have printed out the rules books for Matrix's games. I have them binded at Kinko's. Tehy look pretty good.

However, I agree with you I would like to see computer games come out better playtested and with better rules. I would even pay more for the games - say $110.00 instead of $80.00.

I should add, compared to most companies, SSG's games come out well developed with excellent tutorials.

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 79

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:01:52 AM

PresbyterJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LewFisher

There are chess programs out there that play at a master's level (try their A.I. on for size). However, with chess, there is a limited number of squares and one primary victory condition. With most wargames being so complex, with so many hexes and victory conditions, there probably will never be an A.I. that would satisfy you or play on a master level. Here is one method to solve the problem. Stop trying to beat the A.I. just play the game was if you were a real battlefield commander. That's what I have done in the past for games with lesser A.I.'s.

Oh yes, I agree that there will probably never be a master level AI for complex wargames like ASL and WiF. Now I'm not specifically saying that the AI has to satisfy me, but I think it has to be worth the money. And that's why I'm asking what makes a decent AI, with some sort of level being set by it's ability to beat the "average player" some percentage of the time.

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 80

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:11:43 AM

PresbyterJohn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LewFisher

Actually, I have printed out the rules books for Matrix's games. I have them binded at Kinko's. Tehy look pretty good.

However, I agree with you I would like to see computer games come out better playtested and with better rules. I would even pay more for the games - say $110.00 instead of $80.00.

I should add, compared to most companies, SSG's games come out well developed with excellent tutorials.

Yes, I've done the same thing with the SSG manuals, printing them out myself, experimenting with paper grades to get the best results and then binding them. Rather silly to go to all that expense but I think this game will last for a while and I can give my manuals to other people as I get them to buy the game. Sort of bribery on my part.

The only thing I'm annoyed about is the changes to the game system from version 1.0 that are not reflected in an updated rulebook. Korsun Pocket would be most annoying for somebody trying to work out a game by reading the detail of the rulebook and then going to play Ver 1.11. Now seeing that the rulebook is in PDF I don't think it unreasonable to correct the errors and make updates when the game mechanics are changed. It could even be downloaded separately form the patch so people don't have to complain about the extra 10 MB size to the patch.

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 81

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:16:20 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
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From: Reno, Nevada
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For that, you are going to have to ask programmers; but I think the A.I. for SSG's newer games seem to fit the bill?!

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 82

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:21:33 AM

LewFisher

Posts: 66
Joined: 8/18/2003
From: Reno, Nevada
Status: offline

Yeah, I agree. HPS is very good about upgrading it's rules. Prehaps atrix should do the same.

BTY, if you have played board wargames, they are riddled with rules and map problems and most companies rarely bother to fix their mistakes.

_____________________________

Lew Fisher

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 83

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:28:29 AM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LewFisher

For that, you are going to have to ask programmers; but I think the A.I. for SSG's newer games seem to fit the bill?!

Well I think the programmers will be a little biased in this respect since they are being paid in some part for the quality of their product. Just read some of the product descriptions for these type of games. Instead I'd rather seek the opinion of the consumer in this respect of AI quality. Now there is no doubt that BiN does represent a superior AI when compared to, say TOAW. Will all computer hex based wargames have the same or better level of AI ability from now on? Strategic Command 2 is coming out soon and I'm willing to bet in beer.

(in reply to LewFisher)

Post #: 84

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 6:34:04 AM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LewFisher

Yeah, I agree. HPS is very good about upgrading it's rules. Prehaps atrix should do the same.

BTY, if you have played board wargames, they are riddled with rules and map problems and most companies rarely bother to fix their mistakes.

It can be hard to keep up with the errata and revisions. I think the ideal answer is a web based rule book which is always up to date and available for printing individual updated pages if you want the hard copy. I would probably burn CD's of the latest version each time an update was made. What is most appealing about this is that it could be hypertexted, but that would cost extra, not that I wouldn't pay if it was for ASL. WiF has a CD version but I have't looked at it yet.

< Message edited by Prester John -- 11/7/2004 4:35:22 AM >

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RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:02:44 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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Ive said before I DO play games against others, more than against an AI, read my posts.

I also know OTHERS want to play against an AI so I want an AI for those people.

Have you played Squad BAttles? Or HTTR? or CMBB? I think you will find all these games have an AI that can put up a good fight. Granted we ALL KNOW that an AI is in noway as good as another human HOWEVER at least its there for those who CANT play against another person or who lack the CONFIDENCE to do it.

Do you UNDERSTAND THIS???

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/7/2004 2:06:08 PM >

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 86

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/7/2004 4:51:15 PM

PresbyterJohn

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ive said before I DO play games against others, more than against an AI, read my posts.

I also know OTHERS want to play against an AI so I want an AI for those people.

Have you played Squad BAttles? Or HTTR? or CMBB? I think you will find all these games have an AI that can put up a good fight. Granted we ALL KNOW that an AI is in noway as good as another human HOWEVER at least its there for those who CANT play against another person or who lack the CONFIDENCE to do it.

Do you UNDERSTAND THIS???

So what are you saying? That an AI should be able to defeat the average player 50% of the time? Or perhaps just 25% of the time? Can you give some sort of idea of the win ratio an AI that can put up a good fight should be able to achieve?

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 87

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/8/2004 2:14:49 AM

ravinhood

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Joined: 10/23/2003
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I wouldn't say that an ai has to win any certain amount of games, but, present a tough challenge, so when the player finishes a scenario or campaign against it, he surely feels satisfied he's been in a fight and not just a one sided checkers game.

That's what I get out of the Combat Mission Series. I'd say I beat it on average 90% of the time giving it perks, but, I definitely feel I have to pull out every trick in the book to do so. I used to could roll up the flanks in Combat Mission Overlord, but, in Barbarossa and Afrika Korp both, they have started planting ai units on the map edges, mainly heavy anti tank guns or infantry guns and sometimes a handful of infantry. This plays hell on my map edge maneuvers and those AT guns are pretty darn accurate with the perks.

It's not the win or lose for me, it's the challenge, how hard it is to win or lose if the case may be. I don't expect an expert player on the other side of the table, just a fairly good challenging one that isn't predictable every single game. RTW has a predictable combat AI, that's why it suffers as a great game to me. Combat Mission doesn't have a predictable ai on defense, though it does on offense. It's not hard to beat the CM ai on offense outnumbered 2 to 1 because it just tries to use always the best means of approach and I just mass up my troups where I know it's coming from and it's like a massacre, fun to watch for a couple of games, after that, it's just too predictable.

I can understand programming the ai to use the best terrain as it approaches a defensive position, but, if it always uses this tactic, it's predictable and easily overcome by just massing the defense units in one spot. So, if anything the offensive approaches of the AI need to be randomized and perhaps sliced into three or more different approaches on a combined assault. Yes, the AI might lose some units to heavy damage in the open, but, losing some is better than losing them all to just "one" approach that is camped out for. Makes it too easy for me to use off board artillery to pound it to death in one spot than if I had to worry about 3 or more.

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 88

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/8/2004 3:33:50 AM

Adam Parker

Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

...so when the player finishes a scenario or campaign against it, he surely feels satisfied he's been in a fight and not just a one sided checkers game.

Yes, I agree with you too.

The AI in BiN for me is doing just this - even when it beats me! Which is often.

Other factors which are of importance to me in the way an AI functions are:

1. Lack of cheating.
2. Historically parametered performance.
3. Variety in reponse - ie: little or very well hidden scripting.
4. Ability to "understand" and employ all assets at its disposal.
5. Aggressiveness.
6. Open to and employing bluff.
7. Able to match the style of the commander it is simulating.

BiN impressively is providing all. Especially the latter. There is a HUGE difference in playing against the German AI in the regular "Overlord" campaign and in "Rommel's Plan".

Yesterday for example after getting slaughtered pushing forward in the "Rommel's Plan" I fired up a new game of "Overlord". I tried a new strategy in making Carentan my no. 1 priority.

I can't believe how closely the design mimicked history. Carentan was taken but only 5 turns after the actual achievement made by the 82nd and 101st in reality. Yet, on sitting back on turn 13, the entire west-east frontline pretty much mirrored that of June 12th, 1944, dips, bends and salients and all.

Basically, I was much slower than my Allied counterparts of 1944 - but the reponse of the AI was such to limit my macro gains to historical lengths.

For a while I've wondered whether the ability for the AI to travel from zone to zone amidst my air interdiction and the bocage itself is historical? Reading Zetterling and seeing the actual campaign lines I'm satisfied that what I'm experiencing is very plausible. The "Rommel's Plan" AI response really tests the mettle!

Btw guys and gals, I highly recommend a new book: "The D-Day Atlas: Anatomy of the Normandy Campaign". (Here) Some previously unpublished progress maps with nice close-ups of the action applicable to the individual beaches through the closing of the Falaise gap. Some details on the push into Brittany and to Paris included. Nice, also for providing some brief summaries detailing all divisions involved for those gamers without a comprehensive library. Expensive but cheaper than buying 6 Osprey titles

Highly recommend this book too if you can find it for a concise, quick, yet very straight-forward and informative read of the campaign's progress (The Normandy Campaign)

Adam.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 89

RE: Absolutely superb AI - 11/8/2004 3:58:09 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prester John

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ive said before I DO play games against others, more than against an AI, read my posts.

I also know OTHERS want to play against an AI so I want an AI for those people.

Have you played Squad BAttles? Or HTTR? or CMBB? I think you will find all these games have an AI that can put up a good fight. Granted we ALL KNOW that an AI is in noway as good as another human HOWEVER at least its there for those who CANT play against another person or who lack the CONFIDENCE to do it.

Do you UNDERSTAND THIS???

So what are you saying? That an AI should be able to defeat the average player 50% of the time? Or perhaps just 25% of the time? Can you give some sort of idea of the win ratio an AI that can put up a good fight should be able to achieve?

You sure like your percentages.

As said above an AI that puts up a challenge like those games mentioned.

See it can be done. Thats what I want. One that puts up a challenge. One that I beat and yet it can beat me. One that I can cut my teeth on first before playing another human. One that when I feel like a quick game solitiare I can and enjoy it too.

Cant put percentages on it mate sorry.

(in reply to PresbyterJohn)

Post #: 90