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RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 6:36:12 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

Seems to be only one person upset about this. The others are disappointed but understanding and just glad to get info on what is going on.
UB

_____________________________

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 31

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 6:37:42 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

Well I see 2 possibly 3 people on that page who might have access to the secure servers. The rest I'm sure are sub-contracted and work on single projects. And who knows, perhaps only one of these 2 or 3 people even knows how to build a self installing patch?

There are major legal issues involved when you represent another companies property, so not very many people will have secure access to the srevers where all the different files are stored. You are making some very erroneous assumptions regarding how Matrix does business I think.

The guys at the show have to be fully knowledgable about ALL of Matrix's products. In addition I'm sure their are lots of new product (potential) business development meetings held after hours at these events, so basically the entire small core team is needed. One guy manning a sales booth might work for a single product interested only in selling units, but Matrix represents 28 products according to their "select a game" pull down menu.

Jim

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 32

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 6:41:46 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Seems to be only one person upset about this. The others are disappointed but understanding and just glad to get info on what is going on.
UB

Again, not upset at all about the delay of the patch. I could care less. As usual, I am miffed at Matrix internal business/develoment practices... It was intended as a mere observation, but as usual with the fanatics on the forum, anything less than outright Matrix worship is considered blasphemous treason. And, also as usual, I couldn't really give a damn whether the fanatics like what I have to say or not....

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 33

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 6:49:29 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

Well Zoomie, See if they are a publicly traded company, and buy a bunch of shares, or gather your funds together and buy into the Matrix board and then you can do it your way. They made the decision, as stated well in advance, so that is just the way it is. It is a patch, which fixes issues that are non-game stoppers. This is not the 1.1 or 1.2 patch that fixed issues that actually kept people form playing. This is the 1.3 patch with player suggestions and fixing some minor annoyances. Send them all to Germany, hell stay for Christmas, if they keep us informed on what is going on as the have, then I am not going to worry about it as you appear to be doing.

Rant all you want, what they do as a business is there well business. I am just amazed at how much they listen to the player base as it is. You work for a software company so how would you like it if on your user bulletin board they were telling you how you should run your business? Not ideas to change product or add features but how they run the office?

UB

_____________________________

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 34

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 7:02:57 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

A lot of you are like college football homers and fanatics and take as personal insult ANY level of criticism.

No, not just ANY level of criticism. As the Reverend says, you have been a little over the top here.

However, I do apologize for any sarcasm that leaks into my posts.

Matrix and 2x3 are both small operations operating in an infinitesimal niche market; no one in either company is going to get rich from this. In fact, I find it hard to believe that any of the technical people can be paid �normal� salaries to the standards of the industry (and I agree with you that there is no shortage of talent here). For whatever reasons they continue to work on WitP and all their other products, I am damned glad to be one of the beneficiaries of their efforts.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 35

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 7:05:37 PM

PeteG662

Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
Status: offline

Zoomies point is that from a business efficiency standpoint it doesn't make sense. That is all. Guys, its okay to talk and express opinions so go with the flow here.

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 36

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 7:11:35 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Well Zoomie, See if they are a publicly traded company, and buy a bunch of shares, or gather your funds together and buy into the Matrix board and then you can do it your way. They made the decision, as stated well in advance, so that is just the way it is. It is a patch, which fixes issues that are non-game stoppers. This is not the 1.1 or 1.2 patch that fixed issues that actually kept people form playing. This is the 1.3 patch with player suggestions and fixing some minor annoyances. Send them all to Germany, hell stay for Christmas, if they keep us informed on what is going on as the have, then I am not going to worry about it as you appear to be doing.

Rant all you want, what they do as a business is there well business. I am just amazed at how much they listen to the player base as it is. You work for a software company so how would you like it if on your user bulletin board they were telling you how you should run your business? Not ideas to change product or add features but how they run the office?

UB

We're told how to run our business by our customers all the time. We charge too much for this, too little for that, our code and environment is too complex, we don't invest enough in documentation, we over design, under design, we are top heavy, bottom heavy, we have great customer support, our customer support sucks, etc.... Hear it all the time. Sometimes we make a change, most of the time we don't, but we here it all the time either way...

True, that they can conduct their business any way they see fit, but also true that when they make public what they are doing, they then open themselves to the critical eye as well. It's all fair game. They choose to effectively shut their company down for trade shows. I was merely pointing out that that is a very odd way of doing business, because, well, it is. That's a OBSERVATION, but of course, as usual, most take it as a criticism and get their panties in a wad over it.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 10/21/2004 5:12:01 PM >

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 37

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 7:34:17 PM

Skyros

Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline

Here I am sitting on the fence.

I see Zoomies point and I understand Matrix's position. I too worked in the software industry and if one more person tells me "its only cutting and pasting code from one section to another, why do you charge so much" I could scream. I also see how Matrix with money committed to this trip, which the airlines will not give back, wants to make sure all the players are at a show which could help grow their business.

My major concern is to do the patch right. Having been rushed by clients, told not to use business analysts to test etc. and then be blamed when something goes wrong I can understand why they have put it off. If they had winged it and something had gone wrong there would be threads here complaing about why they did not wait and do it right.

By the way Zoomie keep speaking up, its your right to have an opinion and you express it well. Hopefully as Matrix grows they will be able to add more people to address your concerns.

Joel thanks for keeping us informed and Gary thanks for PacWar and WITP, I don't know what I would have done for the last ten years with out your games.

< Message edited by Skyros -- 10/21/2004 5:45:11 PM >

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 38

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 8:24:15 PM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline

Zoomie does have a right to speak his peace on the forum, and he can weigh the depths of his displeasure the next time he considers buying a 2by3 or Matrix game. I'm sure if Matrix has made a poor decision in how they've handled this, they will learn from their experience and do things differently in the future - if possible.

My concern is that the furor (really, a fart in a whirlwind) over this issue will suggest to Matrix that they should be less forthcoming with information. I would much rather have Matrix hang it all out for everyone to see and know than just be told that "the patch is delayed for awhile; don't call us, we'll call you." I think we all agree that one of the best things about Matrix is their responsiveness to, and interaction with, customers (no gaming company does better). I don't want to discourage them from being honest and open for fear of criticism. They are human, after all.

(in reply to Skyros)

Post #: 39

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 8:36:57 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

I agree that Zoomie has every right to express his opinions. Even with perfect knowledge of every aspect of the situation (which non of us has, just like a commander in wartime never has full knowledge except in a wargame), you could still honorably disagree with certain aspects of decisions that are made. I'm just pointing out that lots of assumptions are made that are incorrect and would radically alter your thinking if you knew the reality and weren't clouded by the fog of war. I've heard some say business is just war without the physical casulaties (unless you count stress).

I can't speak for Matrix, although the person that said there are only a few people on the list that are qualified to go was probably right on. I can say at SSI I didn't hire a sales person until 4 years after I started the company and 3 1/2 years after I was selling products. I was the sales person. I was the game developer. We had a few programmers, some production staff, and one marketing person. Only the marketing person and I could "man the booth" except at end user shows where we could send a programmer if we wanted to interrupt their critical path work. I was the only project manager so if I was gone, it was hard to get some things done. That's why I even remember sending my mom to a trade show once (she didn't know the games, but at least could help sell games and do the paperwork, I seem to recall Keith may have gone as the tech guy to that show to answer game questions). I guess you can say we were a grandma and pop outfit. Of course, after I hired a sales guy, I regretted waiting so long to get one, however I still had to spend a lot of time selling (and working with the sales person) as it was hard to find a sales guy that knew anything about computer wargames (there being no history of such a thing and little money in it). In hindsight, I feel like I should have hired a sales guy 1 year earlier, but not 3 years earlier given the financial situation and the costs/benefits of such a move. Of course, that's 20/20 hindsight, and overall I'm proud of SSI's success in those early days.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear from those that are happy to get the straight info, and will continue to try to give it when I have some definite information I think people want to know. I don't think you guys are homers, I just think you're willing to give us the benefit of the doubt, and I find that encouraging.

(in reply to Skyros)

Post #: 40

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 8:40:21 PM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline

Thanks, Joel. But I, for one, am a Homer.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 41

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 8:41:47 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO.

Still not buying.

.

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

1) The above sounds like criticism not an observation.
2) My panties are not in a wad.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 42

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 8:53:59 PM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

2) My panties are not in a wad.

So you do wear panties, then?

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 43

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 9:04:05 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

2) My panties are not in a wad.

So you do wear panties, then?

I meant boxers . . . yeah, that's it . . . boxers.

(in reply to byron13)

Post #: 44

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 9:15:33 PM

UncleBuck

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

You see this is a great forum, I was expectign the normal stuff like, Yeah I am wearign panties, but only because you can mome early and thats what your wife threw to me. LOL

Anyone figure out that LMG that PZB posted?

UB

_____________________________

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)

Post #: 45

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 9:48:28 PM

RevRick

Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline

Okay, Okay.. I'll admit it... I'm a Homer 1st Class, with 6 red chevrons on my right sleeve.. You will notice I did not say Gold chevrons, because I have not had a perfect service record.

RevRick, Homer 1st Class, Matrix Games Forum, reporting for duty.
Go Navy, Beat Army.
How 'bout them Noles?
Hail to the Victors!
Siss, Boom, Bah!!!
Etc., etc., etc.

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.� ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 46

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 10:21:58 PM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

Dang Zoomie,

What's a week extra wait? Let them go to the trade show, maybe see some sights and kick back a little. There is no other game company that has put out this many patches with the number of changes as fast as Matrix/2by3.

Course I only have about a week left to play the game for a while so it is no big deal for me. It will probably take me a month just to figure out all the changes that have been made to the game once I return.

Thanks Joel, Matrix and the rest of 2by3 for a great game. Take all the time you need for the changes. But have them all done by the time I get back in a year and a half.

(in reply to RevRick)

Post #: 47

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 10:33:33 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I admit ignorance as to the details of how Matrix conducts their day to day business. But even if they only three guys with secure access to servers and knowhow to get distributable binaries out you ONE, don't send ALL THREE to a show AT THE SAME TIME, and TWO, you ensure that at least one or two people OTHER THAN than those three know enough about the company and its products to be able to market the firm.

Sounds like you're being an apologist for what amounts to the manifestation of an internal management problem. Bottom line, there is NO real justification for essentially shutting down company's ability to distribute product for a week for a mere trade show. It defies logic. But then again, as I've said before, I guess i just live in a completely different world than these people.

Sigh... I'm not being an apologist for Matrix at all. I entered this topic because it appeared to me you had some over optimistic opinions of Matrix�s financial ability to run a �typical� software company. I was only trying to point out that yes your observations would be right, IF Matrix could afford to hire all the help you so generously state they should be able to. You make no attempt to tell us how they can afford to PAY this help, simply that it should be there.

My point was and still is that Matrix can�t afford to do business your way. Your inability to see this fact shows a biased slant on your part and in my opinion simply isn�t a fair position to take. I agree there are probably things that can be done to make things run smoother, but Matrix is a new company and needs some time to mature.

Matrix publishes games, I am not their apologist (I have no idea what a Homer is) in any way, I�m simply an impatient WitP fan who understands why I must wait for my patch. If anything I�m a 2x3 FANatic, not a Matrix one.

Jim

_____________________________

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 48

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 10:35:05 PM

BartM

Posts: 107
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline

posting dates always cause problems...

for me.. I have not been able to play a scenerio since the game release, since the computer bug has taken over alot of the ships/planes and so on... (posted many times by many people)

I really would just like the basics fixed, but it seems you all are doing a huge remake and patch...covering alot of the bug issues at once...

Not much we can do about it now, since we're stuck with this product until a resonable patch is released to play the game.

Though once patched, Ill keep my account active here for furture patches to this game, but Maxtrix has lost my business for any future products. Sorry to be harsh, but frankly the cost of this product and the large delay to fix the very basics of the game has made me look elsewhere. Simulation or not, game or not, historical reference or not, nothing in the gaming industry is this important to place 90.00 on only to sit and wait for it be repaired. Never expected a bug free product, but I did expect the very basic design to work.

best of luck in your future products.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 49

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/21/2004 10:50:41 PM

khelvan

Posts: 67
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 50

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/25/2004 9:16:28 PM

rhohltjr

Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Okay, Okay.. I'll admit it... I'm a Homer 1st Class, with 6 red chevrons on my right sleeve.. You will notice I did not say Gold chevrons, because I have not had a perfect service record.

Homer 1st class for Florida State???

Hmmm.

What does that (6 red chevrons)mean Rev? Assuming Chevrons are stripes. Red versus Gold would mean you were/are .... ??? Can't even guess.

Caught dating someone from Florida???
Miami U???

Tennessee????

Oh. Sorry for hijacking this thread. You may now continue.... Yay Grigsby Billings Broils, sis boom bah...

_____________________________

My e-troops don't unload OVER THE BEACH anymore, see:
Amphibious Assault at Kota Bharu
TF 85 troops securing a beachhead at Kota Bharu, 51,75
whew! I still feel better.

(in reply to RevRick)

Post #: 51

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/25/2004 9:50:42 PM

Tophat

Posts: 460
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Cleveland,Ohio
Status: offline

Hmmmn,
Interesting topic.........tell you what,all of us but Zoomie download the patch when it comes out and play in good health.Zoomie you wait 10 days after its released,continue your rant and get it all out of your system.

(in reply to rhohltjr)

Post #: 52

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 12:26:26 AM

herbieh

Posts: 804
Joined: 8/30/2002
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

Lets see......stay in crushing tension filled office with a million wolves at the door, or escape to germany where the beer is nice, the girls pretty and the crowd fellow wargamers.

What's the argument?

_____________________________

Big seas, Fast ships, life tastes better with salt

(in reply to UncleBuck)

Post #: 53

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 1:26:28 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khelvan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

(in reply to khelvan)

Post #: 54

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 1:31:39 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time.

By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

ok, don't yuou love these guys... at least we know .. my vbeef with matrix all along.. do what you need to do but stop leaving us hanging... I truly do not mind the wait if I get a reasonable timeframe...
Joel, you are aces... or betas or .. maybe alpha? definately not nates!! in my book
Matthew
freeboy

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 55

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 3:00:07 AM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: khelvan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

Zoomie,

Get over it. Yer bitchin' isn't going to get the patch here any sooner and just because you would do it one way, doesn't make it the right way.

Go play a turn or something. The patch will come soon enough.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 56

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 3:37:01 AM

Onime No Kyo

Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

Hmmm.....it looks like I'm learning about more stuff here than just military history.

Can someone please take a minue and explain a few things to this unworthy (non-software making) person.

1) How does the connection between Matrix and 2x3 go? I thought that Matrix were the guys who made the game?

2) I own a healthy (or perhaps UNhealthy) number of EA games including a whole mess of Medal of Honor stuff and an even bigger mess of EA Sports stuff. I dont recall ever hearing any patch issues. I have no idea who does their Beta or how big their staff is, but my impression was that if anyone came around with as many complaints as this forum has they would not even bother dignifying it with a response. They would quietly collect the bugs and gameplay issues and drop a patch out when they were damned good and ready. From my personal observation, their attitude is, if you dont like it, mod it. So the question is, do their games just come out cleaner or does the general market not hear about it?

3) How was this patching stuff done in the olden days? I remember playing SSI's Battles of the SoPac and have carriers teleport from Townsville to 2 hexes from Rabaul. And no one I knew had the foggiest idea of what to do about it. Now we're so spoiled we cant even wait a week.

TYIA for your time and answers.

PS....Joel, if I understood what you said correctly about your relationship to SSI, I want to thank you for helping me waste countless precious hours of my childhood and make me the geek I am today.

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 57

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 3:53:35 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Or in other words, "Just chill dude".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: khelvan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off.

EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best.

Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP.

I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements.

Cheers,

-khel

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company???

Still not buying....

Zoomie,

Get over it. Yer bitchin' isn't going to get the patch here any sooner and just because you would do it one way, doesn't make it the right way.

Go play a turn or something. The patch will come soon enough.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Knavey)

Post #: 58

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 5:13:21 AM

fbastos

Posts: 827
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. You don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done

Can't understand why this pal is so upset with them folks travelling. The support from Matrix is excellent: the developers are always around on the forum, are forthcoming with the bugs and accept suggestions. Can't imagine of anything better.

Try and go to Microsoft telling them how you would like to have this screen changed, but be ready to be laughed at. If the programmers need to go to Germany to see that a P-40 is cold meat for a Me-109, and will be back only by a given date, what's the problem with that?

As for myself I keep calling for the patch, but I do that out of fun (also because it took me too much time editing the animated GIF and learning how to enter it on a signature, to just remove it now).

Zombie 1890, cool down man.

F.

_____________________________

I'm running out of jokes...

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 59

RE: Does anyone else find this as odd - 10/26/2004 5:43:14 AM

Belce

Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

I actually really respect this company more due to this situation. If this was a big software company we would just hear, "the patch is still undergoing testing and will be released when ready" regardless of the situation of the staff and the patch.

I apperciate the fact they send people to a trade show that actually know and care about the product than some pr booth bunny to say "it really rocks, you should try it, maybe if you can play it well you can date someone like me, chicks really do dig grognards." By sending their best and brightests few they are doing alot to support this game and game genre. Their target audience is going to be asking things like, "do you model Japanese plane losses due to non resealable tanks?" and someone with quick overview and brochure will not be able to answer.

Further, the game is currently playable, meaning that the patch is a nice enhancement and improvement to it and does not actually change it from unplayable to playable. If you are an actual programmer you would realise that such an enhancement is not as important as increasing exposure to your product, "You want to change the colour in this window for this, sure I can add that my to do list."

After all is done and said, this is a game. It isn't a piece of business software, it doesn't generate revenue for its users, it doesn't make or break you in any way and the patch will just be making a good game better. And as a final remark, "as a developer for 2by3 games, you feel that what I consider my best efforts to make and support this game are insufficient, then I feel that you would be better served by another source of entertainment than what I can provide. Good travels and sorry it didn't work out for us."

_____________________________

Truth is truth

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 60

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