Does anyone else find this as odd

Does anyone else find this as odd (Full Version)

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ZOOMIE1980 -> Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 8:17:47 AM)
A company, whose arguably biggest product has a major revision all but ready for distribution, cannot deliver it because ALL the "key" personnel are away at a trade show???? I've been in the commercial software business for the better part of a quarter century, mostly at firms roughly the same size as this one, and I cannot imagine a case where I send ALL my people out to trade shows at the same time???? They are important, for sure, but damn.....

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 8:33:41 AM)
Need the patch bad or what? Anyway, it's a small company and they seem to have been working their repective bags off. Time for a few steins of beer in a breathtaking country in my book. You have to start asking yourself why every issue is major or vital, when in reality, they are not that huge. If the employees don't get a break once in awhile, the production suffers anyway.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 8:38:15 AM)
Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse. This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers....

Joel Billings -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:19:05 AM)
Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days. We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible. If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA. I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time. By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:24:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse. This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers.... No offence, but it sounds like you could use a holiday. Seriously, the gaming industry and other software industries seems to me to be different creatures. The gaming industry appears to satisfy it's own timetable while the commercial companies fight bitterly over the same contracts requiring a more strict approach to deadlines. Personally, I don't care how long they take, as long as they get it right in the end. Further(as Isaid a few previous times), it would be grand if they regarded this game as their flagship and every few years updated it incorporating new industry standards and player design suggestions and game streamlining. Where ya gonna go if 2by3 did not produce this game? Nowhere. RTS is the norm, and most likely the companies which concentate on these or killing themselves, but without competition, 2by3 can worry less about heart attacks and divorce and enjoy a hobby which earns them a living.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:29:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days. We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible. If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA. I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time. By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees. Makes sense to me, Joel. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Can't argue with German beer either.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:40:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings Since I posted the note in the first place, let me come to Matrix's defense. There are only a few people at Matrix that have the knowledge and ability to bring together all of the relevent files from different sources (programmers, sound techs, artists) and make a patch that deals with the various issues that the patch needs to deal with. This game show was anticipated for months and those people happen to be the same people that can be called on to show the products and "man the booth" and be able to speak intelligently about their complete product line. Matrix is a small company, as are all of the companies making computer wargames these days. We expected the patch to be ready by early October, but a very difficult issue kept delaying the patch. By the time the issue had been solved and sufficiently tested, the Matrix people were already on the move. They did their best to try to get the patch out during their travel, but couldn't pull it off in a way that would ensure proper testing on the final patch. It was unfortunate timing. I'm sure they will do everything they can when they return to get the patch out as soon as possible. If Matrix (or the other current computer wargame publishers) were SSI after about 1983, I'd agree with you that they should be able to go to a trade show and get a patch out the door. But you're asking a lot from companies that have few full time employees and are selling predominently very nitch products. Thanks to the wonders of the internet, they can do amazing things with very little resources, but they aren't EA. I was reluctant to say anything about the patch for fear of this kind of reaction, and I guess I could have said less, but I prefer to be up front with people about what's going on once we know the story. I also want to say that I'm totally supportive of Matrix going to the German show as it's only by going to these kinds of shows that we can hope to grow computer wargaming (and Matrix) so we can sell more copies of our games and be able to continue making computer wargames. Germany is a big computer wargame market (used to be second to the US back in the mid/late nineties) so it deserves to be marketed to, and with our games, it takes someone that knows the products well to be able to show them off well. So although I'm sorry the patch was delayed by this bad timing, the show is something that ultimately is beneficial to anyone that wants a continuing stream of computer wargame products. On the plus side, keep in mind that the patch is continuing to be tested so it will likely be better given the extra test time. By the way, 20 people is a ton. It took SSI 4+ years and around 30 products to reach 20 employees. I can appreciate everything you are saying here. Been there, done that.....really. Matrix does not suffer from a talent problem, they suffer from a training problem (where to find the time to train????) Matrix does not suffer from a work ethic problem they suffer from a resource management problem. Remember, washing machines work hard (National Lampoom's Christmas Vacation)... At some point, like we did some 10 years ago (we are 21 years old), we had to formally separate our marketting function from our technical function and bite the bullet and hire some folks who were 100% non-tech, pure sales types. Those are the folks that are today our "booth bunnies". We still send a couple of techies with them, but the guys we send are always non-critical path guys who are essentially plug-and-play folks who can be recalled on a moment's notice (that's me...). You guys have what? 25, 28 folks??? That's enough to start thinking about keeping some critical path techies at home and acquiring at least a few talking heads to take the load off. It;s the sad lot of us techies....we really are NOT wired to be booth bunnies.

von Murrin -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:41:10 AM)
I for one really do appreciate feedback from devs, positive or negative. Nothing 'til the 28th? That's fine. I have other games and things I can do, and would be cool with it anyway had I not such, err... "distractions."[:D] Take a day off, Joel. Grab a beer and watch a game or something. After all, you've "only" got GGWAW on your plate for the next few days.[:'(] Thanks for the heads up. It does matter.[:)]

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:46:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 Its a business, not recreation. When I started at my firm we had 20 people. We NEVER delayed a software delivery because of trade show commitments. I have have had to cancel five trade show trips in the past nine years to get releases out the door. And we work hard....VERY hard. Sorry, not buying. Not buying at all. At least, ONE guy simply MUST cancel the trip and get the work done. No excuse. This is just one example of why the gaming sector has such a poor reputation among professional software developers.... No offence, but it sounds like you could use a holiday. Seriously, the gaming industry and other software industries seems to me to be different creatures. The gaming industry appears to satisfy it's own timetable while the commercial companies fight bitterly over the same contracts requiring a more strict approach to deadlines. Personally, I don't care how long they take, as long as they get it right in the end. Further(as Isaid a few previous times), it would be grand if they regarded this game as their flagship and every few years updated it incorporating new industry standards and player design suggestions and game streamlining. Where ya gonna go if 2by3 did not produce this game? Nowhere. RTS is the norm, and most likely the companies which concentate on these or killing themselves, but without competition, 2by3 can worry less about heart attacks and divorce and enjoy a hobby which earns them a living. It's the difference between a legit "business" and a "past-time". You can exhaust yourself with both. I'm not all that hyped about the patch. I am playing with a great deal of satisfaction with or without it. But I always find the business end of this stuff facinating. And that's what this thread is about. Right now, Matrix is what I call a "Mom and Pop" type business. "What do I have to do today to open the doors tomorrow". But I also see it as an entity about ready to take the next step...towards an EA-Sports..."it's no longer good enough to just be able to open the doors tomorrow...". I'm just watching and learning.....

Joel Billings -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 9:57:25 AM)
Where'd you get 25-28 people? I don't honestly know for Matrix, but would say you're off by close to an order of magnitude (ok, maybe not quite that much). At 2by3 we have 3 full time and currently 2 part time people. Don't mind the man behind the curtain.

Joel Billings -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 10:00:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: von Murrin I for one really do appreciate feedback from devs, positive or negative. Nothing 'til the 28th? That's fine. I have other games and things I can do, and would be cool with it anyway had I not such, err... "distractions."[:D] Take a day off, Joel. Grab a beer and watch a game or something. After all, you've "only" got GGWAW on your plate for the next few days.[:'(] Thanks for the heads up. It does matter.[:)] Thanks for the support. Yes, focused on GGWaW now for sure. Wish I had time to grab that beer. Maybe after my next roller hockey game.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 10:02:27 AM)
Yea, I can't ever seem to get a feel for exactly how you guys all fit together. I guess that's part of the problem. Who's the "partners", who's the parent company, who's in what group and who's in both???? All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate....

Bosun -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 10:32:48 AM)
Joel, I really appreciate your letting us know about the delay for the patch. It really is important to keep the lines of communication open. I feel that we grognards of UV and WITP are almost family; in fact after playing some of you for years now I think of you as family in a sense. I know frustration levels have been high for me and, I think, many others as well. Now that we have the facts we can all get back to a semi-normal routine w/o checking the forum every 30 minutes. At least until the 29th LOL. Anyway, this old sea dog thanks you.[sm=00000976.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif]

Halsey -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 10:34:57 AM)
I wish I had a job that allowed me that kind of freedom! I don't begrudge them for having that opportunity though. I say, more power to ya![;)] Besides, being a UV player, I know that this game will be constantly upgraded as time goes by. The younger generation wants all now! Us older and experienced people are a little more patient when waiting for something.[;)] With that being said, I really look forward to starting new 1.40 patching threads![:D]

Nomad -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 3:51:24 PM)
I understand that Matrix and 2x3 are small companies. I am glad Joel gave us some information. The lack of information is the one thing that frustrates me. I have no problem waiting for a patch, I just do not want to have an expectation of 'in a few days' or 'soon', when it is going to be a few weeks.

Andrew Brown -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 4:34:19 PM)
Thanks for the updates Joel. Greatly appreciated.

pompack -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 4:57:44 PM)
The fact that Matrix and 2x3 aren�t �real� software companies is the reason we can afford this game. If they were �real� companies there would indeed be salesmen, probably at least one full-time PR guy, a QC department, a dedicated Customer Support group (probably outsourced to Bangladesh), two or more layers of management plus a Finance department, a Purchasing department and probably an Ethics Committee to make sure that the folks in purchasing don�t take kickbacks or other gratuities such as ballpoint pens. WitP would cost $2000 a copy plus the standard 15% annual maintenance fee that allows the customer to e-mail or telephone customer support and receive periodic updates. It's also true that the employees of such a "real" software company would be able to afford a home, an automobile and eat meat at least once a week. (The above rant may be slightly colored by experience with companies that have to deal with some government)

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:32:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pompack The fact that Matrix and 2x3 aren�t �real� software companies is the reason we can afford this game. If they were �real� companies there would indeed be salesmen, probably at least one full-time PR guy, a QC department, a dedicated Customer Support group (probably outsourced to Bangladesh), two or more layers of management plus a Finance department, a Purchasing department and probably an Ethics Committee to make sure that the folks in purchasing don�t take kickbacks or other gratuities such as ballpoint pens. WitP would cost $2000 a copy plus the standard 15% annual maintenance fee that allows the customer to e-mail or telephone customer support and receive periodic updates. It's also true that the employees of such a "real" software company would be able to afford a home, an automobile and eat meat at least once a week. (The above rant may be slightly colored by experience with companies that have to deal with some government) Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie.

Jim D Burns -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:32:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate.... You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show. Jim

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:38:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate.... You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show. Jim AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world. I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well.....

Feinder -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:45:34 PM)
I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it. Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up. -F-

Jim D Burns -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:54:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world. I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well..... Well Matrix is a publishing company, so things like advertising and trade shows are part of their job description. You don't see 2x3, Panther games, etc. over there, just Matrix. It's their JOB to go; I doubt they're doing it out of fun. If Matrix didn't do things like this why on earth would the developers be in business with them in the first place? From the tone of your post I'm guessing you�re upset because the patch is delayed, so perhaps that's why you're lashing out at Matrix? It's simply not fair to compare Matrix to large software houses that generate millions in profit off of one game. Matrix sells a few thousand copies of a game, to try and compare their business model with companies like EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainment, etc. shows a severe lack of understanding on your part. These companies sell hundreds of thousands of copies of their games; Matrix (or any wargame company for that matter) could never hope to structure their business like these companies. There are only a few core people available because they can't afford to hire more. I'm sure if they sold half a million copies of WitP, 2x3 would also have a booth, but that's not the case. That's why developers sign with a publisher like Matrix. With the combined efforts of all the developers backing Matrix, Matrix can afford to send their team to these events to help generate more sales for all the development houses they represent. Jim

tsimmonds -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:59:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it. Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up. -F- Hear, hear!

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 5:59:40 PM)
Bad analogy, but true, Matrix can do whatever it pleases. Development delays happen all the time, of course. But when the delays are due to everyone taking the week off to galavant to Europe it's a different story. It's more of an observation than a criticism, really. I just come from a totally different world, I guess. I would never run a company the way they do, but that's just me. And I could care less about the patch, one way or another, as I am playing the game just fine, quirks and all.

RevRick -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:03:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate.... You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show. Jim AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world. I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well..... Cool it, guy!!! You trying to play catch up with Bill? I spent fifteen years in business, and I am not getting my &^*&^% hot because this company is not performing like I would expect. If you treat your employees the way you act on the board...whoo boy... ain't no way I'd work under those conditions. This is a diversion after all, and they are not a huge company - as has been attested to above. I've been waiting for this game virtually all my adult life. Personally, I think you are way over the top with some of your comments. Granted, you have the right to rant and rave, but I also have the right to call it an unwarranted rant. By the way, your ranting makes me think that you have another problem - besides obvious impatience. BTW - regarding trips to Germany - last time I took a look at the Business Code - that was considered an business related expense - which justifies the trip - as this is considered at least a good will investment which may lead to future business. Do you want any more games you can rant about not being on your time schedule? If yess, then cool it.... If not, rant on. We'll just read it and shake our heads...

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:04:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world. I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well..... Well Matrix is a publishing company, so things like advertising and trade shows are part of their job description. You don't see 2x3, Panther games, etc. over there, just Matrix. It's their JOB to go; I doubt they're doing it out of fun. If Matrix didn't do things like this why on earth would the developers be in business with them in the first place? From the tone of your post I'm guessing you�re upset because the patch is delayed, so perhaps that's why you're lashing out at Matrix? It's simply not fair to compare Matrix to large software houses that generate millions in profit off of one game. Matrix sells a few thousand copies of a game, to try and compare their business model with companies like EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainment, etc. shows a severe lack of understanding on your part. These companies sell hundreds of thousands of copies of their games; Matrix (or any wargame company for that matter) could never hope to structure their business like these companies. There are only a few core people available because they can't afford to hire more. I'm sure if they sold half a million copies of WitP, 2x3 would also have a booth, but that's not the case. That's why developers sign with a publisher like Matrix. With the combined efforts of all the developers backing Matrix, Matrix can afford to send their team to these events to help generate more sales for all the development houses they represent. Jim Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO. Still not buying.

Mark VII -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:08:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder I can't believe that so many folks have gotten their panties in a wad over this. The patch is delayed. It happens. It happens frequently. In a lot of things. Ever stood in line at DMV, only to hear that the girl who takes your picture has gone to lunch, and they'll be back "soon". What about that knuckle-head at the grocery store that wants to write a check, but fogot their driver's licence. Or you're trying to sell your house, and your buyer can't get financing (why were you looking at my house to begin with?). Or the most magnificent and wondrous Hooters that is scheduled to open next week, is delayed for 2 weeks because somebody forgot to file for a liquour licence. Life is waiting in line for the next line. Get used to it. Matrix doesn't OWE anyone anything. These (FREE) patches are reflection of a quality company, that stands behind their product. Delays happen. Grow up. -F- Could'nt agree more with Feinder. Joel; Thankyou for the update on the patch. Precisely the info I wanted to hear. Have no problem waiting for the "free" update another week or so. Looking forward to it but I understand there are delays that are unavoidable. Staff going to a trade show is cool, if you guys don't expand you may go out of business, then where will we be? Now that I know how long to the patch, my pbem can carry on without worrying about when the patch will show up overnight! Thanks for the info.....terry

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:19:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RevRick quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 All I know, is the salesmen should be manning the booth's at the trade show and the techies should be putting out the product. God help the poor saps who either view themselves, or have been forced, into both..... I really don't envy you guys....especially if you have kids to feed/educate.... You're missing the point. Matrix doesn't have sales people, marketing reps, IT folks, etc. There are a few core people at Matrix that can "do it all" and the rest are more like sub-contractors who specialize in one thing or another (programming, graphics, product development issues, etc.). So there isn't a large group of people to draw from for unique events like this. The guys going to the show are the only ones who know the FULL picture regarding all their products and development issues, so we'll have to be patient till they return. [:(] No one else could possibly even hope to answer all the different questions I'm sure a representative will get while manning a booth at a game show. Jim AGain, how many people have to go to a single show? Why does EVERYONE of a critical nature have to go? We will be manning a booth at BAI next month, a MAJOR financial institution trade show and a very critical one for us. We will send TWO people. We had ITUG last week, another very important show for us out in Cupertino, California. We sent ONE guy! ONE! Sorry, still not buying this line that even a firm as small as Matrix has to send EVERYONE to a show halfway around the world. I know one thing for sure, from now on, though, I will take any poor mouthing coming from this bunch with a huge grain of salt. Trips from the US to Germany for week aren't cheap....someone is doing well..... Cool it, guy!!! You trying to play catch up with Bill? I spent fifteen years in business, and I am not getting my &^*&^% hot because this company is not performing like I would expect. If you treat your employees the way you act on the board...whoo boy... ain't no way I'd work under those conditions. This is a diversion after all, and they are not a huge company - as has been attested to above. I've been waiting for this game virtually all my adult life. Personally, I think you are way over the top with some of your comments. Granted, you have the right to rant and rave, but I also have the right to call it an unwarranted rant. By the way, your ranting makes me think that you have another problem - besides obvious impatience. BTW - regarding trips to Germany - last time I took a look at the Business Code - that was considered an business related expense - which justifies the trip - as this is considered at least a good will investment which may lead to future business. Do you want any more games you can rant about not being on your time schedule? If yess, then cool it.... If not, rant on. We'll just read it and shake our heads... You damned right I have a right to rant and I will. There is a LOT about Matrix and their partners I like, but there is are some aspects of Matrix that simply defy logic. This is one of them. Again, I could care less if the patch isn't done till Christmas or later. And business trips cost the BUSINESS money, often a hell of a lot more than it does an individual. I know how to run a business and how not to run a business. The people I work with work very hard, are well managed, but at the same time are quite happy, as a whole....and very very few EVER go to a trade show.... I know for many here Matrix and their partners walk on water and can do no wrong. A lot of you are like college football homers and fanatics and take as personal insult ANY level of criticism. Well Matrix does a lot of things either flat out WRONG, or not as well as they could or should. This is one of them. If you have a problem with opinion, then that's YOUR problem, not mine.

Jim D Burns -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 Publishing company or not (read their who's who link, not ALL of these guys are publishers at all and they aren't as small as some of you seem to THINK they are), you don't send the ENTIRE STAFF to trade shows, period. At least leave SOMEONE behind that can continue to deal with the business end of things. I don't give a damn if they have 5 people and sell 500 CD's a year, you STILL don't send ALL your people capable of operating the business to some show, no matter HOW important it is. I still fail to see how having five or six or however many they send to these things get more "marketing" done than sending ONE or TWO. Still not buying. Well I see 2 possibly 3 people on that page who might have access to the secure servers. The rest I'm sure are sub-contracted and work on single projects. And who knows, perhaps only one of these 2 or 3 people even knows how to build a self installing patch? There are major legal issues involved when you represent another companies property, so not very many people will have secure access to the srevers where all the different files are stored. You are making some very erroneous assumptions regarding how Matrix does business I think. The guys at the show have to be fully knowledgable about ALL of Matrix's products. In addition I'm sure their are lots of new product (potential) business development meetings held after hours at these events, so basically the entire small core team is needed. One guy manning a sales booth might work for a single product interested only in selling units, but Matrix represents 28 products according to their "select a game" pull down menu. Jim

Jim D Burns -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/21/2004 6:22:48 PM)
oops double post sorry.

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