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RE: Revisionist History - 10/25/2004 6:56:58 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger
A little hint to all you guys beyond the pond: There's a CRUCIAL vote coming up. Think back: When did the downslide on education in the US start? Who benefits from keeping the voting masses dumb? Which one of the two big political parties in the US has made cuts on educational budgets time and again? Who's trying to cut down on human and civil rights and succeeding to do so? Go out and get all eligible folks around you to vote and put an end to this........


How about you take your political criticism to a forum where it is welcome, kleine Schweitzer? We're here to talk about wargaming, game design, and related historical information.

(in reply to forranger)
Post #: 121
RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/25/2004 7:09:19 PM   
UncleBuck

 

Posts: 633
Joined: 10/31/2003
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Madman Rick,
'
I used to play Army or War as well. We ranged all over the Neighborhood and had fixed lines and everything. You had to try and take the other guys territory. I can't imagine a group of kids playing that in San Diego now. (I grew up in Tallahassee, a much different environ.) The cops would be on the scene in mere minutes and all of them would be in big trouble and off to counseling. I have had occasion to go into toy stores a few time in the past five yeas and I remember the large selection of toy guns I drooled over as a kid, now they are absent. I mean hell, you can't even call a paintball gun a paintball gun it is a Marker.

I have also done some un-scientific surveys about history and other slightly obscure topics. The results were frightening. I used to frequent several coffee houses here in SD with a friend of mine (Nuclear Engineer, Naval architect) and we would ask the older HS students and College kids a few questions. We would even show up with some war games and play all night long. This was to generate questions. Usually we brought Axis and Allies along since it was easier to get someone else to play that than Squad leader. We were also looking to finish a game in a night. Anyway. We would ask people to put the following wars in order. Spanish American War, Mexican war, War of 1812 ( you would think this would help but it didn't) Revolutionary war, American Civil war, World war 1 , world war II, Korea and Vietnam. That is 9 wars. Fewer than 10 people ever got more than 4 right. It was amazing. We would also ask who were the major participants of theses wars, and included the French and Indian war, I know that is cheating. We were asking about the Crimea and Boer war but those just drew blank stares. Anyway, it just showed that the emphasis on World History and you can get a pretty good idea of Geography and a world History just studying world war is gone. The Majority of people graduating from High School and entering college are history ignorant.

Another question we started to ask was kind of a lark on a conspiracy. We asked if they had ever heard of the USS Eldridge or the Philadelphia project. We found that if they were born after 1972 they had no clue, prior to that they had a vague idea and most were right with us with a little prodding. Oh well, as for War Games, I am trying to get more people interested but if it doesn't explode in body parts they aren't interested.

UB

_____________________________


(in reply to MadmanRick)
Post #: 122
RE: Future of games like WITP - 10/25/2004 8:00:18 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		As another dinosaur who has spent an entire lifetime enjoying - yes, dear friends, "having fun at" - the study of history, I can certainly empathize there, UncleBuck.

A lot of that study has, of course, come from reading, learning, and playing wargames. One of my favorites is Victory's rendition of the Vietnam conflict. The modeling of the political system and the effect of public opinion back home was, in my opinion, absolutely brilliant and, in many ways, eye-opening, even for someone who had been there and lived through the times.

I never thought we would come to a time when the prevailing social notion is that objective (not revisionist) knowledge of historical events and people is an irrelevant pastime. My idea always was that this was the underpinning of most knowledge - if you had a pretty good handle on history, you were also studying geography, literature, general science, and a lot of other good stuff.

It's sad to know that most people spit on what you take great pride in.

One of my favorite debacles happened in law school, where a professor of international law was putting forth his idea that there has never been an organization that actively pursued the idea of unified world government. "How about the International Communist Party?" I interjected. Made an instant enemy. This was, by the way, one of the people who were thumping the drum in the 1990s that the Allies committed a war crime in WWII by insisting that the Japanese surrender unconditionally...

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 10/25/2004 1:03:13 PM >

(in reply to UncleBuck)
Post #: 123
RE: Revisionist History - 10/25/2004 10:17:16 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger
A little hint to all you guys beyond the pond: There's a CRUCIAL vote coming up. Think back: When did the downslide on education in the US start? Who benefits from keeping the voting masses dumb? Which one of the two big political parties in the US has made cuts on educational budgets time and again? Who's trying to cut down on human and civil rights and succeeding to do so? Go out and get all eligible folks around you to vote and put an end to this........


How about you take your political criticism to a forum where it is welcome, kleine Schweitzer? We're here to talk about wargaming, game design, and related historical information.


Agreed. This is for wargaming, and not for politics. Especially from uniformed people from "across the pond" dabbling in elections from another country. So please, keep it to wargaming/history/etc.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 124
RE: Revisionist History - 10/25/2004 11:48:25 PM   
forranger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

So you are saying the liberials are the ones to blame. They have made education one were there can't be winners and have one has to feel great. In the classrooms I have been in they want you to water everything down for the worst students and teach this way to the whole class. Schools have enough money and waste it on the crazist things. They spend money on all of these sensitivity training and PC crap. The waste a lot of money and want more and more every year, and the teaching keeps getting away from history to PC agenda issues. The books now cover the whole world war two for two chapters and WWI for 1, then spend 1 chapter one the whole cold war. Then after the chapter on the cold war there is a couple of chapters talking about the counter culture and PC issues. The issue on American eduction is not money being spent on it is how you use it. It has seemed to go away from teaching to a place for Liberal and PC ideas are being introduced to the students. I was in high school in mid 90's and am in the schools and it is so much easier for these kids to get good grades. Kids these days should never fail a class unless they do nothing, but half of the time they pass these kids any ways because the parents complain.


You got me dead wrong with your remark on liberals. It's not the liberals who try to ban teaching about Darwin..... As for the waste of money just this: start giving decent salaries to teachers, then you start attracting more capable ones. A teacher with a half decent education will make more out of 1 chapter of an even mediocre schoolbook than a bad and unmotivated instructor.... PC training: ever heard of the growing digital divide? Not every schoolkid comes from a family who can afford these machines and internet access, so it's essential that you at least have access to infrastructure and teaching at school. There ARE less privileged people around. A fact easily forgotten by people not looking beyond the boundaries of their neigborhood.....

_____________________________

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning. (Rommel)

(in reply to Zeta16)
Post #: 125
RE: Revisionist History - 10/25/2004 11:54:55 PM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Ok, Please. Stop the political discussion. You wanna discuss politics, take it somewhere else.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to forranger)
Post #: 126
RE: Revisionist History - 10/25/2004 11:55:49 PM   
forranger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: forranger
A little hint to all you guys beyond the pond: There's a CRUCIAL vote coming up. Think back: When did the downslide on education in the US start? Who benefits from keeping the voting masses dumb? Which one of the two big political parties in the US has made cuts on educational budgets time and again? Who's trying to cut down on human and civil rights and succeeding to do so? Go out and get all eligible folks around you to vote and put an end to this........


How about you take your political criticism to a forum where it is welcome, kleine Schweitzer? We're here to talk about wargaming, game design, and related historical information.


I won't comment on this level of communication. Hmmmmmm, thinking of Guantanamo and recent slightly freer handling of Habeas corpus by one or the other government in the western hemisphere I probably should start apologizing, no? Well, maybe not. Just one more thing: I have no problems with wargamers, but mucho problems with warmongers, be they of Arab, Nazi, Sovjet or American origin.......

_____________________________

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning. (Rommel)

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 127
RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/25/2004 11:56:20 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Oh yeah, it seems I have everyone beat on age. 19 baby, booyah! I think playing Koei's Pacific Theater of Operations when I was 11 ruined me for life.



yep thats the one that got me too...

_____________________________


(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 128
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 12:00:10 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Or at least keep it to politics prior to 1960. (WWII politics is good to talk about)

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 129
RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/26/2004 12:00:49 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Oh yeah, it seems I have everyone beat on age. 19 baby, booyah! I think playing Koei's Pacific Theater of Operations when I was 11 ruined me for life.



yep thats the one that got me too...


Addictive wasn't it? Nuclear Dreadnought Battleships, hahahahahahahahaha.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 130
RE: Back on the soap box again... - 10/26/2004 12:07:24 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Yeah, you guys. I remember sitting in study hall when I was a freshman in high school. An upperclassman who I knew but never considered to be a friend handed me a pamphlet. It was an Avalon Hill game catalogue. On the front page was an ad for "Afrika Korps." There was this one unit depicted. It was red. On the front at the bottom were the big black letters "7-7-10." All the crummy little blue units had "1-1-6" or some similarly wimpy numbers on them. I knew I wanted to be the guy in control of the "7-7-10." About that time, Mrs. Hanley (she was the middle aged big knockers type), the librarian, came over and grabbed the catalogue out of my hands. She was really mad. She called me by another kid's name. She didn't have any idea who I was, but she wanted to dictate to me what I could read just the same ("Help! Help! I'm being repressed!").

I knew right then and there that adults were the enemy and I was a big, bad, red 7-7-10. Next week, I was reading "The Amorous Adventures of Candy" behind my algebra textbook.

I was ruined for life, thank God. It's what has kept me from becoming an adult...

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 131
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 12:08:14 AM   
forranger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		[/quote]

Agreed. This is for wargaming, and not for politics. Especially from uniformed people from "across the pond" dabbling in elections from another country. So please, keep it to wargaming/history/etc.
[/quote]

Uniformed? Not anymore. Uninformed? Would be bad for a longtime news editor.... A deeper debate might shine some light on that. Discussion anytime, anyplace, but let's agree not on this thread anymore, even if discussing baseball or sports seems to be way more common than political points..... As history student, at University and after, I'm just plain amazed at how some facts are distorted sometimes, even by officials. But I vow to show some more discipline. If you let me, ok?

_____________________________

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning. (Rommel)

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 132
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 12:23:23 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, there are some posts on this site that have nothing to do with WITP. Like sports, hurricanes, UncleBuck's horrifying story of ignorant teenagers, etc etc. But, the difference is that politics (especially now) are too personal. People don't want to hear the other sides story. People get upset about politics. This site is for WITP. Most of the discussions are even tempered. Politics gets people throwing stones. Someone is bound to lose an eye. Plus, I have to see it 24/7 on the damn TV and in my mail. I come to this forum to learn and not be high strung. It's even worse when someone who isn't an american tries to put in their two cents (about american politics).

I do have a funny Switzerland story. I worked with a jerk salesperson at my last job. In a meeting with a customer, he was saying that our company was the "Australia" of companies. He meant to say "Switzerland", because he was trying to say that our company was neutral on the subject we were discussing. Now that was scary. A 40 year old salesperson making $100k per year (plus commissions) didn't know his way around a globe or a history book.

Alright, lets get back to P-40, PT, CD and Oscar discussions.

< Message edited by Bradley7735 -- 10/25/2004 10:24:08 PM >

(in reply to forranger)
Post #: 133
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 12:33:19 AM   
forranger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

.... Politics gets people throwing stones. Someone is bound to lose an eye. Plus, I have to see it 24/7 on the damn TV and in my mail. I come to this forum to learn and not be high strung. It's even worse when someone who isn't an american tries to put in their two cents (about american politics).

I do have a funny Switzerland story. I worked with a jerk salesperson at my last job. In a meeting with a customer, he was saying that our company was the "Australia" of companies. He meant to say "Switzerland", because he was trying to say that our company was neutral on the subject we were discussing. Now that was scary. A 40 year old salesperson making $100k per year (plus commissions) didn't know his way around a globe or a history book.

Alright, lets get back to P-40, PT, CD and Oscar discussions.


Mea culpa, my apologies. I realized I was too easily sucked into something which belongs somewhere else. BUT: Let's agree this is not an all-american forum, ok? And btw this salesperson might have meant "Austria" which was a neutral country too for some decades after WWII. My 2 Rappen on that....

_____________________________

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning. (Rommel)

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 134
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 12:37:21 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		We're trying to do better.

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 135
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 1:27:54 AM   
forranger

 

Posts: 96
Joined: 9/15/2004
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

..... Politics gets people throwing stones. Someone is bound to lose an eye. Plus, I have to see it 24/7 on the damn TV and in my mail. I come to this forum to learn and not be high strung. It's even worse when someone who isn't an american tries to put in their two cents (about american politics).



Just one more thing: Can't you imagine that there ARE folks interested in American history and therefore also American politics? It kind of tends to affect the rest of the planet, not always in the most positive way.... And in Europe there are many solid newschannels and newspapers which cover US politics quite extensively. So please admit that there might be some people outside the US who can participate in constructive discussions on this topic, ok?

_____________________________

Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning. (Rommel)

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 136
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 3:24:37 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		My first war game was Operation Sealion by SPI and then Toburk. Campaign for North Africa was my first real monster game followed by The Next War and Longest Day.

I think there will always be a small market for these types of games, the interest starts when you first start learning about history in school and looking for more, hearing stories of relatives involved in these conflicts. Not everyone is going to be interested in this, but for the few that open the door, there is often no going back.

The real danger to an interest in this part of history are those that claim that it glorifies war, here in Canada it is not unheard of for people to even claim that Rememberance Day services do just that. From my experience, vets love to talk about good times they had when off duty, ask one what it was like to fly over Germany in a bomber and they get all quiet and they will say they lost alot of friends. I know of no one that has looked at the history of war in the 20th century, talked to the vets and then thought they would like to have that experience themselves.

One of the interesting stories I read many years ago during the cold war was the difference in reaction to directing a war game of a Warsaw pact invasion of Germany. They took people with no military background and had them direct the NATO response, all of them resorted to nuclear weapons much earlier than those that had military background or a knowledge of military history.

(in reply to forranger)
Post #: 137
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 7:04:16 AM   
MadmanRick


Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Although I agree that discussion of politics (especially American) is wholly inappropriate and unwise at this juncture, I do not agree that people from Countries other than America cannot express a viewpoint. American politics affects the entire world, most especially the last 4 years. If someone from this Country or ANY other expresses a viewpoint with which I disagree, I can simply ignore that viewpoint. In fact, if one were to ask the average Iraqi child on the street I am QUITE sure they would have a strong viewpoint about American politics, either one way or another. So rather than being so brash as to demand that non-Americans butt out of our politics, perhaps it would be better to simply request that the subject be changed. And while I'm at it, please let's avoid throwing around the "liberal"/"conservative" labels. They mean nothing in the scheme of things, especially vis a vis this forum. It is enough for me to know that we all share a common interest in history/gaming et al. I surely do not need to know what flavor politics we each share, for I KNOW 90% of us wouldn't agree on them anyway. Thanks,
Rick

_____________________________


"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter". Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

(in reply to Belce)
Post #: 138
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 7:11:12 AM   
MadmanRick


Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

My first war game was Operation Sealion by SPI and then Toburk. Campaign for North Africa was my first real monster game followed by The Next War and Longest Day.

I think there will always be a small market for these types of games, the interest starts when you first start learning about history in school and looking for more, hearing stories of relatives involved in these conflicts. Not everyone is going to be interested in this, but for the few that open the door, there is often no going back.

The real danger to an interest in this part of history are those that claim that it glorifies war, here in Canada it is not unheard of for people to even claim that Rememberance Day services do just that. From my experience, vets love to talk about good times they had when off duty, ask one what it was like to fly over Germany in a bomber and they get all quiet and they will say they lost alot of friends. I know of no one that has looked at the history of war in the 20th century, talked to the vets and then thought they would like to have that experience themselves.

One of the interesting stories I read many years ago during the cold war was the difference in reaction to directing a war game of a Warsaw pact invasion of Germany. They took people with no military background and had them direct the NATO response, all of them resorted to nuclear weapons much earlier than those that had military background or a knowledge of military history.


Belce,
Your post reminds of why I think it SO important that anyone who is going to order troops into war, should have first served in the military. To have served and have laid one's life on the line, gives one the understanding why that sort of thing should ONLY be done as a last resort. More and more of our politicians around the world have not served and I think it shows. There is no easy answer to this problem, short of starting wars just to season future leaders, which would be unacceptable (to me anyway). But I do believe it is a serious problem facing the leaders of tomorrow.

Rick

_____________________________


"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter". Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

(in reply to Belce)
Post #: 139
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 7:50:40 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Military service may help with a leader's judgement when considering war, but truly it is the people that need to know and understand what it means more so. For my fellow Canadians, I would suggest a vist to Ypres, Belgium, to hear taps played in honour of Canadian soldiers in 1915 that saved that city after Germany's second gas attack, to walk Canada Way in the low lands of Europe that we liberated in WWII, to read the President Citiation for the PPCLI in Korea, the UN action in former Yugo at the Mekat <sp?> pocket.

(in reply to MadmanRick)
Post #: 140
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 7:54:24 AM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline 		Nice sentiment. Well done.

(in reply to Belce)
Post #: 141
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 10:13:45 AM   
Belce


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Thank you

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 142
RE: Revisionist History - 10/26/2004 1:12:06 PM   
Desertmole


Posts: 144
Joined: 10/3/2004
Status: offline 		One comment, then back to wargaming - Some of us across the pond are Americans as well, and here, at least, we are getting out the vote!

Rhondabrwn said: "Ah yes, the Great Naval Battles series... I would love to see that series updated and brought back, especially Volume III (Pacific Carrier Warfare), but done better than the original. Just a thought, but could you imagine fighting out the WITP surface battles with a "jump into the turret" option using something like Great Naval Battles? "

I am playing a lot of UV right now, trying to decide whether I will buy WitP (and also lurking around this board as well). One thing that struck me was that the UV supply and fuel system seem to be straight out of GNB 2. I used to enjoy the long scenario a whole lot, and played it many times from both sides. Obviously UV has solid roots in GNB, considering they share the same daddys. UV has a lot more, but computers are capable of a heck of a lot more than they were in the early 90s when GNB came out. I, too, would have appreciated the opportunity to "jump into the turret."

I really enjoyed the damage-control part of the GNB series. The only thing that bugged me was that several times I was on the verge of saving a badly damaged ship, and then the "fast mode" or whatever it was called would kick in and I couldn't react quickly enough to stop the fires and flooding and would lose her. Wish there had been a way to keep the fast mode from kicking in, but there wasn't any.

(in reply to Belce)
Post #: 143
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