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RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 2:40:42 AM   
TheHellPatrol


Posts: 1588
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Same thing here. Games like WaW are a dime a dozen as this style is basically the new "light alcohol content, low carb, yuppie beer" of the wargame market. I like my stouts, ales and pilsners thank you very much.
True, after the HOI fiasco i think anything that even resembles it is going to cause some eyes to roll. I really want a Wit"M", a grand tactical ACW would be nice too:To sleep, perchance to dream...aye, there's the rub.

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 91
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 2:43:35 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		Guys, when Joel talks of using the GGWaW "technology" or "engine" for a new grand tactical game, he's not saying it will even at all look or play like GGWaW. Think of an engine like you would the basic frame of a building. GGWaW might look like a standard corporate office, but and future project could look like the Sears Tower.

An engine is a frame of useful code. Depending upon what you want to build, you can rip out or add functions as needed. For instance, the engine behind the upcoming Sid Meier's Pirates! is the same one used for Morrowind and Dark Age of Camelot, three very different games.

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Post #: 92
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:17:50 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Guys, when Joel talks of using the GGWaW "technology" or "engine" for a new grand tactical game, he's not saying it will even at all look or play like GGWaW. Think of an engine like you would the basic frame of a building. GGWaW might look like a standard corporate office, but and future project could look like the Sears Tower.


Yeah, and it could look like Grandpa's Two-Holer Sears & Roebuck Special Bung Fodder Outhouse, too.

(in reply to von Murrin)
Post #: 93
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:23:50 AM   
testarossa


Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

No, it was Oleg Madox and 1C that did PF half backed. They already said before it got sent to UBI that they didn't want a third disk, so they would ship and then make a patch.


The number of CDs is the decision usually made by publisher, isn't it?

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 94
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:25:30 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

[No reason why 2by3, like Nimitz, had to listen to MacArthur and assault Japan from a single approach. The fact that Nimitz withstood the pressure and stayed the course meant that the Central Pacific Drive augmented Dugout Doug's. So, why not approach the problem in two directions instead of one? Produce a WaW for the ignorant masses to play with and grab a sliver of the lucrative RT market, and the money goes to 2by3 with a portion going to the development of games for wargamers. Ours may well be a niche market but 2by3 at least have a near monopoly on it. No point in everyone running in the same direction.

Like my family used to do at BBQs, give the kids hot dogs and give the adults steak.


I've now had a chance to read Joel's notes and it sounds like Gary and Co are bored with doing traditional grognard games. That's too bad from my personal perspective, but if they are right, they will be a lot richer for their troubles. Oh well, as long as some of the irritations in WitP are fixed, it ought to last us another decade until Gary decides to again create something interesting for the old-school war game fans.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 95
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:27:27 AM   
von Murrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

No, it was Oleg Madox and 1C that did PF half backed. They already said before it got sent to UBI that they didn't want a third disk, so they would ship and then make a patch.


The number of CDs is the decision usually made by publisher, isn't it?


Yes and no. They simply may not have been able to pay for a third disk.

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Post #: 96
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:28:43 AM   
von Murrin


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From: That from which there is no escape.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Murrin

Guys, when Joel talks of using the GGWaW "technology" or "engine" for a new grand tactical game, he's not saying it will even at all look or play like GGWaW. Think of an engine like you would the basic frame of a building. GGWaW might look like a standard corporate office, but and future project could look like the Sears Tower.


Yeah, and it could look like Grandpa's Two-Holer Sears & Roebuck Special Bung Fodder Outhouse, too.


Don't be such a pessimist.

There's no reason the engine powering GGWaW can't be used for a complex hex-based game.

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Post #: 97
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 3:29:05 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

You also have to factor in the cost of people besides the 3 of 2by3: Mike Wood seems to have been spending most of his time on it for quite a while, also the cost of the supplying the art. I don't know how the Matrix/2by3 finances are organised for WitP but I doubt that the portion of DR and Matrix added together will be a "pittance". But I agree 2by3 probably aren't living on Cheetos, whatever they are.


Think "Pocky" and you will have an analogous concept - cheap junk food.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Bodhi)
Post #: 98
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:08:23 AM   
Bodhi


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From: Japan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi
But I agree 2by3 probably aren't living on Cheetos, whatever they are.


Think "Pocky" and you will have an analogous concept - cheap junk food.

Dave Baranyi


Heavens, I wouldn't want my worst enemy to have to live on a diet Pocky and Pokari Sweat! I now know what someone thinks of me if they ever offer me a Cheeto. Guess you must have a US equivalent of Pokari Sweat, oh wait ,yes you have ..... Coke!

_____________________________

Bodhi

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Post #: 99
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:09:03 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

You also have to factor in the cost of people besides the 3 of 2by3: Mike Wood seems to have been spending most of his time on it for quite a while, also the cost of the supplying the art. I don't know how the Matrix/2by3 finances are organised for WitP but I doubt that the portion of DR and Matrix added together will be a "pittance". But I agree 2by3 probably aren't living on Cheetos, whatever they are.


Think "Pocky" and you will have an analogous concept - cheap junk food.

Dave Baranyi


My kids would be very happy living on Cheetos. I like them too, but they usually finish them before I get many.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 100
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:14:38 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline 		As for checking it out why don't you buy it, look at it then sell it to Ron Saueracker for 1/2 price who in turn can look at it and sell it to Tankerace at another 1/2 price discount, who can the sell it to Pasternaski, etc, etc,etc. By the time it gets around to me you can pay me ten bucks to take it off your hands. You might have to leave Mogomi off the chain. He can't be still having internet connection problems. Maybe he got wind of this and decided to dig a hole and pull the dirt back over him.

(in reply to Bodhi)
Post #: 101
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:23:38 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Tough crowd.

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 102
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:24:27 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

As for checking it out why don't you buy it, look at it then sell it to Ron Saueracker for 1/2 price who in turn can look at it and sell it to Tankerace at another 1/2 price discount, who can the sell it to Pasternaski, etc, etc,etc. By the time it gets around to me you can pay me ten bucks to take it off your hands. You might have to leave Mogomi off the chain. He can't be still having internet connection problems. Maybe he got wind of this and decided to dig a hole and pull the dirt back over him.


That's one idea. Of course, if it's addictive and gets people interested in wargaming in general, another idea might be to give it to some as a present to get them hooked. WaW starting them on the slippery slope to WitP, or maybe that's 2by3's secret plan.

_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 103
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 4:41:00 AM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Tough crowd.


Joel - you guys brought this upon yourselves - we got spoiled by UV and WitP and now you are offering us the war game equivalent of Cheetos (or Pocky) when we've become accustomed to lobster.

Dave Baranyi

(Oh well, this just means I'll have more money and time to spend on anime.)

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 104
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 5:12:14 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
For your next grand tactical fix from 2by3, you'll have to wait for our Eastern Front game. ... it will use the technology in GGWaW ...


*sigh*


I don't think you understand what I mean by technology. All I'm referring to is the method that the programmers use to put art on the screen, and the way that many game rules and art are structured to be easily moddable in data files instead of in hard code. They have nothing to do with how the game plays. If we were setting out to do UV today, we would use the GGWaW engine becuase the technology is much easier to work with. This doesn't mean it would be area movement like GGWaW. In fact that game could be done to play exactly as the current UV plays. Eastern Front using the GGWaW technology will still play exactly as we expected it to play back in 2000 when we first designed it. Eastern Front is much closer to WitP in detail and gameplay than it is to GGWaW. Am I not being clear about this?

As for the Civil War game, it will look and feel much more like GGWaW as it is intended as a medium/low complexity strategic game simulating the entire war using relatively "generic" units. It will have around 400 regions like GGWaW (currently, Virginia has 16 land regions and 5 water regions). With monthly turns and so much area to cover, we expect it will take longer to take longer to play than GGWaW (but still far short of the years it takes to play WitP). For those that like WitP and don't expect to like GGWaW, you won't like our Civil War game either for the same reasons. However, we obviously hope there will be a market for the game.


Ah ha! Well that makes me feel a LOT more comfortable.............I am now looking forward to GGWaW version of Eastern Front and ACW !

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 105
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 5:23:43 AM   
dereck


Posts: 2800
Joined: 9/7/2004
From: Romulus, MI
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

quote:

BUT I WILL BUY A CIVIL WAR GAME!!!!!

Amen to that brother!!!!

Since the demise of Civil War Generals II I have surely missed my 2nd favorite war!!!!


Yes I am really looking forword to this one!!! I think you mean the demise of CivWArGens III by Sierra. They were supposed to make it but it never came out.
CivWarGens II was an ok game (very old now) but I always wanted a great full theater game. Hopefully Matrix will accomplish that!!!

American Civil War by Frank Hunter was full theater but is a very small scale and very dated game.


A Civil War game on the scale of WiTP?? I've died and gone to heaven!!!!!

I will BORROW money to buy that game when it comes out if I have to ... take out a new mortgage on my house wouldn't be out of the question either.

_____________________________

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Post #: 106
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 5:24:33 AM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

hehe yes do War in Europe and then combine it with War in the Pacific and connect the maps and voila! a super World at War!

....goes off to dream...


In SPI's magazine "Moves," they once had an article with rules for combining War in the Pacific with War in Europe. The article was called "War in the World." I once saw a copy of that issue up for auction, and the seller had listed the table of contents. By "War in the World," he had added the comment, "For the truly masochistic."

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 107
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 6:00:19 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

quote:

BUT I WILL BUY A CIVIL WAR GAME!!!!!

Amen to that brother!!!!

Since the demise of Civil War Generals II I have surely missed my 2nd favorite war!!!!


Yes I am really looking forword to this one!!! I think you mean the demise of CivWArGens III by Sierra. They were supposed to make it but it never came out.
CivWarGens II was an ok game (very old now) but I always wanted a great full theater game. Hopefully Matrix will accomplish that!!!

American Civil War by Frank Hunter was full theater but is a very small scale and very dated game.


A Civil War game on the scale of WiTP?? I've died and gone to heaven!!!!!

I will BORROW money to buy that game when it comes out if I have to ... take out a new mortgage on my house wouldn't be out of the question either.


Shut up, you. Merely thinking about the wait for this project is depressing.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

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Post #: 108
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 6:03:37 AM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

As for the Civil War game, it will look and feel much more like GGWaW as it is intended as a medium/low complexity strategic game simulating the entire war using relatively "generic" units. It will have around 400 regions like GGWaW (currently, Virginia has 16 land regions and 5 water regions). With monthly turns and so much area to cover, we expect it will take longer to take longer to play than GGWaW (but still far short of the years it takes to play WitP). For those that like WitP and don't expect to like GGWaW, you won't like our Civil War game either for the same reasons. However, we obviously hope there will be a market for the game.



As possibly the only person on this forum who's even more of an ACW grognard than a WWII naval grognard, I figured I should put my $ .02 in. Although I would be glad to see 2x3 make some money on this project, I don't plan to buy it. I'm still hoping, though, that 2x3 will eventually do the definitive ACW game for grognards (hint, hint).

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 109
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 7:58:53 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		PLEASE acquire the rights to the old Victory Games title "Civil War" and port it as a computer version. This is, as far as I'm concerned, absolutely the best strategic simulation of the War Between the States. Detailed but not overwhelmingly complex, and designed with mechanics that have the sweetness of butter (the leader rules alone are a study in excellence).

Those who are familiar with this game need only hear "Indians and the Southwest" to know what I'm talkin' about!

Then, let's move on to the VG title "Vietnam" ...

(in reply to SpitfireIX)
Post #: 110
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 8:19:55 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

PLEASE acquire the rights to the old Victory Games title "Civil War" and port it as a computer version. This is, as far as I'm concerned, absolutely the best strategic simulation of the War Between the States. Detailed but not overwhelmingly complex, and designed with mechanics that have the sweetness of butter (the leader rules alone are a study in excellence).

Those who are familiar with this game need only hear "Indians and the Southwest" to know what I'm talkin' about!

Then, let's move on to the VG title "Vietnam" ...


Ooh, nice suggestion. I would love to see either of these true masterpieces ported.

_____________________________

I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 111
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 1:11:57 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

PLEASE acquire the rights to the old Victory Games title "Civil War" and port it as a computer version. This is, as far as I'm concerned, absolutely the best strategic simulation of the War Between the States. Detailed but not overwhelmingly complex, and designed with mechanics that have the sweetness of butter (the leader rules alone are a study in excellence).

Those who are familiar with this game need only hear "Indians and the Southwest" to know what I'm talkin' about!

Then, let's move on to the VG title "Vietnam" ...

If it's going to be done, this is the way I'd like to see it done most. Those two VG titles, particularly the Civil War one, were truly excellent.

Steve.

_____________________________

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Post #: 112
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/11/2004 10:43:10 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
For your next grand tactical fix from 2by3, you'll have to wait for our Eastern Front game. ... it will use the technology in GGWaW ...


*sigh*


I don't think you understand what I mean by technology. All I'm referring to is the method that the programmers use to put art on the screen, and the way that many game rules and art are structured to be easily moddable in data files instead of in hard code. They have nothing to do with how the game plays. If we were setting out to do UV today, we would use the GGWaW engine becuase the technology is much easier to work with. This doesn't mean it would be area movement like GGWaW. In fact that game could be done to play exactly as the current UV plays. Eastern Front using the GGWaW technology will still play exactly as we expected it to play back in 2000 when we first designed it. Eastern Front is much closer to WitP in detail and gameplay than it is to GGWaW. Am I not being clear about this?

As for the Civil War game, it will look and feel much more like GGWaW as it is intended as a medium/low complexity strategic game simulating the entire war using relatively "generic" units. It will have around 400 regions like GGWaW (currently, Virginia has 16 land regions and 5 water regions). With monthly turns and so much area to cover, we expect it will take longer to take longer to play than GGWaW (but still far short of the years it takes to play WitP). For those that like WitP and don't expect to like GGWaW, you won't like our Civil War game either for the same reasons. However, we obviously hope there will be a market for the game.


I understand what you are saying. That these new games will run on a new engine but can be two different games. East Front will be more like WITP and the Civil War game will be more like GGWaW. (Although I wish it was the other way around )

_____________________________


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 113
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 12:32:56 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		look at the games guys, One uses hexes, the Russia campaign and divisions and supporttroops, althought it isn't really more than a twinkle in thier collective eyes, and ggwaw uses zones or areas. Do not be put off by this, it is VERY complex, using supplies, multiple types of troops, ships, transports, planes, all with a complex tech tree research engine, not to metntion manpower, industry rail lines, resources, strategic bombing .. did I miss anything? No lite-weight is ggwaw guys you are going to love it... if anything it probably will be too hard for the typical player at the harder settings..
Matthew aka freeboy
alpha ggwaw tester

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 114
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 12:35:41 AM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Tough crowd.

Joel - you guys brought this upon yourselves - we got spoiled by UV and WitP and now you are offering us the war game equivalent of Cheetos (or Pocky) when we've become accustomed to lobster.


Exactly. Could not have said it better - or half as well.

(in reply to ADavidB)
Post #: 115
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 12:38:56 AM   
Chaplain

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 8/21/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

look at the games guys, One uses hexes, the Russia campaign and divisions and supporttroops, althought it isn't really more than a twinkle in thier collective eyes, and ggwaw uses zones or areas. Do not be put off by this, it is VERY complex, using supplies, multiple types of troops, ships, transports, planes, all with a complex tech tree research engine, not to metntion manpower, industry rail lines, resources, strategic bombing .. did I miss anything? No lite-weight is ggwaw guys you are going to love it... if anything it probably will be too hard for the typical player at the harder settings..
Matthew aka freeboy
alpha ggwaw tester


But if you look at the candid comments from Oleg Mastruko (sic?) in the WaW forum, you can clearly see that this ain't lobster, as someone said - it's (stale) Cheetos. Bring on the insane East Front game! Keep the Lite Beer.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 116
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 1:05:30 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ok, I felt that way too when I saw it was a regional based game, try it out and then tell me its chetos... that is in future release date...
some times you can lead a grog to the water but you cannot make him drink, idomatic expression from the us ! fyi

(in reply to Chaplain)
Post #: 117
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 1:08:46 AM   
Tankerace


Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline 		Thanks guys, I'm hungry now.. all this talk of Lobster and cheetos and pretzels. Off to the Campus food court, ole'!

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 118
RE: Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal - 11/12/2004 3:12:40 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Thanks guys, I'm hungry now.. all this talk of Lobster and cheetos and pretzels. Off to the Campus food court, ole'!


Probably the most rational post in the whole thread. Wait for me!

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 119
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