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RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/2/2005 6:26:10 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Noumea should be valued 10 times less points at least and so will be only one Allied base among other.

I agree. I always thought that the designers gave Noumea a high point value because of it's historical role as a main headquarters location.

In a re-write (I can dream!) I would like to see complete flexibility in the ways HQ's and units are assigned so that either side could prosecute the war as they see fit. PP's still need to be dealt in, it's just for example silly to have all those units arriving under SoPac command if Japan has taken Pearl Habor... The political situation would dictate otherwise.

It's the same with the point value of Noumea. If the axis of action is elsewhere, it's just another base with a decent airfield and a great harbor. There are several others, so it shouldn't be so high.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

Post #: 61

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/2/2005 6:39:04 PM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Ahhhhh ! V Points ! I hate VPs ! WW2 was total war, not a war of points. You won when the other guy was crushed. Simple and to the point.

Very true. After Pearl Harbor the war in the Pacific was a definite blood fued between the US and Japan. On the US Navy side (at least in the higher level of command) bad blood developed between the naval officers and the British because the British wanted the US to back off on offensive operations in the Pacific. Unless the Japanese parked an army outside the White House there was going to be no way the US was going to stop fighting until Japan was defeated.

I know my grandmother, to her dying day hated the Japanese ... of course her only brother was killed in the Solomons in 1943.

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(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 62

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/2/2005 10:24:52 PM

Feinder

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Actually, several other bases in SoPac (not just Noumea) can be very expensive losses.

I try to consider the aggregate vp value of a base. Not just the cost if I own it, but also what if lose it. Besides Noumea, SoPac has several bases with hefty multipliers -

Noumea(100a)
Luganville(25j)
Efate(25j)
Nandi(25j)
Suva(75j)
Pago-Pago(25j)

The aggregate "value" of each of these bases, when built up (as they inevitably will be) is fairly steep.

Base (AF/Port) (aggregate VPs)
Noumea (9/5) (95j + 1900a) = 1995
Luganville (6/6) (450j + 18a) = 468
Efate (5/5) (375j + 15a) = 390
Nandi (4/6) (400j + 16a) = 416
Suva (5/6) (1275j + 17a) = 1292
Pago-Pago (5/5) (375j + 15a) = 390

I'm not making a call whether they're actually worth it or not, I'm just saying to pay attention to the point multipliers, as there are other bases in SoPac that are worth quite a bit. If Japan owns Efate, and builds it up, not only have you "lost" 15 points as Allies, but Japan "gains" 375 points. If you capture it back, the tilt we a difference of 390 points.

-F-

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Post #: 63

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/4/2005 6:24:11 PM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Don't waste the B-17s in the Philippines on anti-shipping strikes (they hit nothing), ground or airfield attacks. Keep them out of harm but in range of oil locations. As soon as the Japanese take an oil location (and Miri can be taken by Paras on turn 1), start bombing the oil - and you will hear Tokyo Rose howling .

Agree 100%. I think the best strategy for the Allied player in winter-spring 1942 is to try to damage as much as possibles the oil (and eventually ressources) in the SRA... that means that the Japanese has to protect them rather than flying offensive operations.

Hm, I think I would somewhat limit those kinds of actions. Considering how difficult it is to capture oil centers undamaged, and how easy it is for heavy bombers to destroy them, allied player could grind down Japanese economy even before 1/1/43, and basically retake Pacific almost unopposed.
What I'd do, is start to attack those production centers, just to force Japan to defend them. Then stop, or occasionally attack just to keep them busy. It would be pretty much uninteresting to play against opponent who can't produce supplies, planes or weapons, and with it's fleet locked in ports.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

Post #: 64

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/7/2005 1:06:36 AM

tianfeng

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If you play with AI, Singapore can definitly be hold. The key is supply, plenty of supply plus level 9 fortress is impregnable. So start from the 1st day, use every Ak along India to load supply and send to Singapore. At the same time pull every troop in Malaya back to the fortress. (Keep the combat unit one hex up, that's a level 5 base, it will hold for some time and give you time to build Singapore. )
The idea is it will lock huge amount of Japs at this place ( I get 110,000 japs there) so that the rest of Indochina is out of gaurde. Use Chinese force (you can pile up 20 divs) to attack Naning, Hoi and walk down towards Bankok. Gather the force in Indian and spear ahead Malaya, you'll only find 3-4 jap divisions in the whole area. It's only Dec 1942 and I get every base in Indochina and Malaya under controll. So just try it.

(in reply to Lord_Calidor)

Post #: 65

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/7/2005 1:12:48 AM

fokkov

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There are many ways that lead to victory

but even more to defeat

(in reply to tianfeng)

Post #: 66

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/7/2005 6:57:38 PM

IS2m

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*Bump*

(in reply to fokkov)

Post #: 67

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 9/7/2005 7:09:44 PM

51st Highland Div

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Yeah the difference between playing AI and PBEM are immense so strategies would have to be totally different for each...

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Post #: 68

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 2/28/2007 10:45:53 PM

USSAmerica

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I know this thread is referenced in the "Must read" list, but I consider it even more important than that. LOL I have just started my first PBEM game, so I came back to read this one for the 4th or 5th time. After my PBEM "lessons" that I'm going to learn, maybe I'll have something constructive to add. Until then, a shameless bump for everyone new to WitP since 9/2005.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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(in reply to 51st Highland Div)

Post #: 69

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 2/28/2007 11:12:06 PM

HansenII

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From: Berlin, Germany
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Hi!

Very sound advice!

To concentrate and hold up while preserving as much force as possible is the rule of the day.

The DEI are a good defensive postion, probably except exposed places like Brunei & Kuching.
The Dutch Bombers (esp. the Martins) do very well in anti-shipping strikes. But what worries me is the lack of decent fighters. I do use the Buffalo more or less in a naval strike role in order not to get them slaughtered. The AVG is good but comparativly small.
But even so I have a slightly better kill ratio in air to air.

I am currently thinking of moving fighter units (i.e. P39's) into DEI, since in the Sou'West nothing has happend so far, and also LCU's to strengthen Sumatra. Should be a nice position for intercepting vital oil flows from Tarakan to Japan.

I normaly use the Chinese more aggressive and even etach some bomber & fighter units to Rangoon. By the way, next to some AVG-Pilots, the three best scoring ones are Chinese pilots (two I-16's with 10+ kills and one I-153).

Have fun

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 70

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 12:36:41 AM

SierraJuliet

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I have just found this post after starting to read Alien Invasion: Oh, the Humanity! AAR. It has had some regular 'bumps' over the years which means it has to have some great advice in it. It does and there is a host of impressive contributors as well. Plenty of sage advice to be found here.

With all the posts of late seeking advice on the best way to get going [from either side] I think it is worth revisiting this one for the benefit all of us newcomers and for all you old hands the revision would never go astray.

Steve

(in reply to HansenII)

Post #: 71

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 12:47:01 AM

RUPD3658

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Wow. Blast from the past.

Now that I am actually playing the Allies in a PBEM I see that most of what I wrote actually works. This was before some of the early patches so PT boats and Allied subs were a lot more effective back then. I would use the US subs for minelaying until 7/43 when the Allied sub doctrine expires and the MK 14s start to work.

I am not sure but I believe that this thread may have been the first one to use the term "Sir Robin Defense"

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"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to SierraJuliet)

Post #: 72

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 12:51:10 AM

SierraJuliet

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Hi RUPD3658. Apart from what I said in my previous I thought you might enjoy seeing your handiwork from years gone by pop up again. It is a good post for those of us starting out.

Steve

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 73

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 1:05:00 AM

Nomad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Wow. Blast from the past.

Now that I am actually playing the Allies in a PBEM I see that most of what I wrote actually works. This was before some of the early patches so PT boats and Allied subs were a lot more effective back then. I would use the US subs for minelaying until 7/43 when the Allied sub doctrine expires and the MK 14s start to work.

I am not sure but I believe that this thread may have been the first one to use the term "Sir Robin Defense"

Just for your info, it is not until 9/43 that the dud rate drops to 10%.

_____________________________

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Post #: 74

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 1:16:28 AM

RUPD3658

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Damn, I will be in Tokyo before I have subs that work.

When I first wrote this I only had experience against the AI. Having now played both sides in PBEM I would do several thing differently.

1. China: Forget the Hanoi raid. You are better off looking for lone Jap units that get too far ahead and mounting a local counter attack. This scores some points which are what you desperatly need to avaoid auto victory. I would also more the SEAC Chinese troops to Burma by air. You also need to stop all base expansions and focus on building forts. You can also use the AVG to rack up some points against nates and Oscars in China before pulling back to India.

2. DEI: Fortress Java will work but only for a short time. Enjoy it while it lasts. Even though Java will enentaully fall, any time or units lost by Japan helps seal it's fate.

3. Eastern Pacific: Unless Japan makes a move in this direction it is liekly to be very lightly defended. If you get a chance, Wake and other bases can be retaken while the KB is off in the IO or OZ.

4. Malaya: A good Jap player will sink any transport getting near Singapore. You will have to use fast transports and AC to pull units out. Avation units are good since they will regrow faster due to a higher replacement pool.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 75

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 6:06:15 AM

Ron Saueracker

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VS the AI? Hmmm.... Wait for AE.

< Message edited by Ron Saueracker -- 3/6/2009 10:53:19 PM >

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(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 76

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 10:15:25 AM

SierraJuliet

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Point 3 resonates with my current deliberations relating to Japan and her early war protection of Eastern Pacific territories.

I guess for the Allies there is a lot of scope for coming in hard on some of the Japanese possessions early in the war especially when KB is accounted for. As you say, 'it is likely to be very lightly defended'. Sometimes, though, the bluff could have some real teeth to it and an early war set back from a raid on the eastern fringes of the Japanese Empire would have some serious implications on the short term Allied strategy.

I expect this must be one of the vexing dilemmas presented to the Allied player early in the piece. The opportunity to conduct an early strike must be tempting but is the outcome worth the risk?

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 77

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 7:48:32 PM

RUPD3658

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SierraJuliet

The opportunity to conduct an early strike must be tempting but is the outcome worth the risk?

You are asking the man who lost 6 CVs in one day?

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to SierraJuliet)

Post #: 78

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 11:02:50 PM

String

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Singapore... Singapore!

(in reply to RUPD3658)

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RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/5/2009 11:58:48 PM

Canoerebel

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From what I've read in AARs, here's the typical opening strategy by the Japanese commander:

Initial Pre-game thinking: "I'm really gonna go for Singapore and try to take her by January 10.

Mid Pre-game thinking: "Well, I have alot of other objectives where I need this division and that division.

Late Pre-game thinking: "I've got four divisions targeting Singapore, so she should fall by January 10.

New Years Day: Darn it, my attack against Singapore has bogged down.

January 10: Darn it, my attack against Singapore has bogged down.

January 31: *#*(@#(#D*DF(*#@#

February 18: Singapore fell today! Banzaii! What a great feat!

(in reply to String)

Post #: 80

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 12:25:53 AM

SierraJuliet

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Thanks Canoerebel.... I'll keep this excellent treatise on JFB morale maintenance up my sleeve for my first PBEM.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 81

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 2:07:56 PM

String

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The allies can really turn Singapore into a fortress and frustrate the japanese to no end if they go all out on it and the japanese player does not throw the kitchen sink. Air superiority is key and heavy bombers + AVG, with some skillful P40B reinforcement and supply management, such as downgrading west coast P40B's and so on, you can achieve it for quite some time. Unless the japanese player, ofcourse, brings in the full KB. The B-17's from west coast and philippines really help in keeping the japanese airfields in malaya surpressed as well. You usually get them in singapore just as those airfields come online.

The longer you keep singapore, the longer you keep india safe. And losing India is the worst thing that can realistically happen to an allied player, aside from losing PH ofcourse.

(in reply to SierraJuliet)

Post #: 82

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 8:02:55 PM

Oliver Heindorf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

VS the AI? Hmmm.... Wait for AE. If playing the alies and the Jap AI starts sending unescorted ships through the Malacca Starait toward Rangoon for no f-ing reason, simply quit. Seriously, if nobody has sorted this, nothing else was fixed and you've bought the same programme whaat..five times? F-it!!, how many times can the same publisher screw a client and not call him honey?

This is the Ron we know - fight fight fight !

_____________________________

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 83

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 8:05:32 PM

RUPD3658

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

The allies can really turn Singapore into a fortress and frustrate the japanese to no end if they go all out on it and the japanese player does not throw the kitchen sink. Air superiority is key and heavy bombers + AVG, with some skillful P40B reinforcement and supply management, such as downgrading west coast P40B's and so on, you can achieve it for quite some time. Unless the japanese player, ofcourse, brings in the full KB. The B-17's from west coast and philippines really help in keeping the japanese airfields in malaya surpressed as well. You usually get them in singapore just as those airfields come online.

The longer you keep singapore, the longer you keep india safe. And losing India is the worst thing that can realistically happen to an allied player, aside from losing PH ofcourse.

I don't think this would work against a human. One visit by Jap BBs and the base is shut down

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to String)

Post #: 84

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 9:32:13 PM

bradfordkay

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Singapore, Oahu and Manila are perhaps the only coastal airfields that might survive such a naval bombardment, due to the strength of their coast artillery - as long as they have enough supplies.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 85

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 9:53:33 PM

RUPD3658

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I have run tests and (even actual PBEM turns) with BBs bombarding Singapore and Oahu. The CD guns there are paper tigers in the game.

I am not saying that this is right, just that this is the way it is in the game.

< Message edited by RUPD3658 -- 3/6/2009 9:54:20 PM >

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 86

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 9:55:51 PM

RUPD3658

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From day 1 of the Joe Friday vs Sherlock Holmes AAR:

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

5 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Hiei

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 19, on fire, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
431 casualties reported
Guns lost 11
Vehicles lost 1

Runway hits 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 1 destroyed
Swordfish: 1 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Nagato, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 43, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Isis, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Manoora, Shell hits 1

Allied ground losses:
1759 casualties reported
Guns lost 19
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
134 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Shell hits 38, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
120 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 5

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to RUPD3658)

Post #: 87

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 10:55:34 PM

Ron Saueracker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

VS the AI? Hmmm.... Wait for AE. If playing the alies and the Jap AI starts sending unescorted ships through the Malacca Starait toward Rangoon for no f-ing reason, simply quit. Seriously, if nobody has sorted this, nothing else was fixed and you've bought the same programme whaat..five times? F-it!!, how many times can the same publisher screw a client and not call him honey?

This is the Ron we know - fight fight fight !

Haaaaaaaaaaaa. Always been a peeve of mine.

Rant was on good that day. Got hit by a car while crossing at an intersection.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)

Post #: 88

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 11:09:03 PM

Nomad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

VS the AI? Hmmm.... Wait for AE. If playing the alies and the Jap AI starts sending unescorted ships through the Malacca Starait toward Rangoon for no f-ing reason, simply quit. Seriously, if nobody has sorted this, nothing else was fixed and you've bought the same programme whaat..five times? F-it!!, how many times can the same publisher screw a client and not call him honey?

This is the Ron we know - fight fight fight !

Haaaaaaaaaaaa. Always been a peeve of mine. Rant was on good that day. Got hit by a car while crossing at an intersection.

Was the car hurt?

_____________________________

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 89

RE: Surviving the first 6 months as the Allies (Long) - 3/6/2009 11:24:54 PM

RUPD3658

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No but I am sure that Ron argued that his braking model was incorrect

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"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 90

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