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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 7:18:20 AM   
bradclark1

 

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I went through a spurt of buying board games and the problem is trying to find someone to play against. People just look at you weird and I dn't like playing them solo. Pity.

Brad

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RE: demise of board games? - 6/1/2005 9:11:45 AM   
rhondabrwn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

And don't forget the "American Civil War" game in that series!


Heh, Rhonda, "Battle-Cry" IS the American Civil War game in that series. ;o)


Wow, really belated response, but I had the original series and the civil war game of the trilogy was not originally titled "Battle Cry"... I think I saw them change the name years later when they changed all the cover art.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 10:51:52 AM   
Zap


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quote:

as computers infiltrate our professional lives, more and more people would rather escape from them in our recreational lives.


Coregames, you mentioned further ahead in your post how boardgames and minatures could be improved by the computer doing the calculations. Like it or not, professionals will have to use their computers in order to reap the bennifits of the improved experience of play. Herston in another thread mentioned how the only real inovations/improvements in wargames will take place in the computer wargame not the war boardgame. I would have to agree with him on that point. It seems to have almost limitless possibilities.

I personally, am not a player of war boardgames (I was at one time, mostly solitaire) but have converted to strictly computer wargame play.
This, for practical reasons. Very good reasons, which I think are the basis for many who choose to play computer wargames over boardgames.

Some of the reasons you will find below:
1. Solitaire, play is not so enjoyable on the boardgame level. (I and many find it very difficult to meet peolpe near us to have the one on one game play) You cannot easily find one not less a group to play with. That is the reality much more often then not.

Side Note:
Many of the younger game players 13,14,15 year olds have only played RTS/RPG/others on the computer. These would have the same problem (not having any one to share their hobby with. With the computer war game there might be a chance for some of these to experience IGO UGO/ WEGO. And maybe, just maybe this war game community would see an increase in new players of serious wargames. I know there are millions of these kids just look at the numbers of sales of the RTS?RPG/

2. Responsabilities
I put this second but this belongs at number one. I have a demanding job(time wise) it has priority. And Marriage demands my time again I give this priority. I have to imagine many/most of the frequenters to the Boardgame Conventions are students who as of yet are not facing these resposabilities. But when they do they will see the wisdom of the computer game for the, saving time element.

3. Long set up/rebox time
Speaks for itself

4.Incoveniece
If you do have players trying to find a time for all to get together. a large enough place to set up and keep the game set up for a long period of time. My job does not allow me to commit to a scheduled time for multiplayer.. Unacceptable to most boardgamers.

5.Space problems
Not enogh room to set up or the kids /pets will get to it and detroy a half finished game.

As you can see my circumstances do not make me a good candidate for the War boardgame.


With all I have said I do not want to be an absolutist. MarcWalker(Lock n Load) mentioned the resurgance. And that there are more War board games being sold than Computer Wargames(serious games.)
Since there are so many enjoying the warboard game I say great. Keep enjoying them.
But with future computer improvements/changes in peoples lifestyles Saving the boardgame as you knew it may be impossible.


< Message edited by Zap -- 6/1/2005 4:22:29 PM >


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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 11:01:18 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
Herston in another thread mentioned how the only real inovations/improvements in wargames will take place in the computer wargame not the war boardgame. I would have to agree with him on that point.
I personally, am not a player of war boardgames

Those of us who are about to play salute you.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 11:24:53 AM   
Zap


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...

< Message edited by Zap -- 6/1/2005 4:11:03 PM >


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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 8:01:03 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

But with future computer improvements/changes in peoples lifestyles Saving the boardgame as you knew it may be impossible.



I respectfully disagree Zap. To me, the parts of the experience that can't be replaced by strictly computer games will always appeal to people. Some people want to socialize around a table with their friends, and unless we evolve into hermits and all human interaction is lost, this is not likely to disappear. The other irreplacable part is the tactile variety of moving pieces/counters around physically. Chess, for instance, will always be played over the board, regardless of how popular online chess becomes, because people enjoy the variety of how the pieces feel in their hands. For computer gaming, or console gaming, it's one input device-fits-all, and the novelty of that quickly wears off.

I realize that computers will continue to pervade our lives further and further as time goes on, but the nature of the interface will become less obtrusive as technology becomes more ergonomic and individual expression is free to assert itself. Can't you envision a table-top miniatures game where the "board" changes to suit the situation, and each piece is essentially a separate input device (like a sculpted cordless mouse)? I believe that computers and boardgaming will fit together when the era of the generic computer (as in PC clones) fades and this remarkable technology matures to fill individual needs.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 9:47:49 PM   
wodin


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Im actually going to buy lock N Load. Just in case oneday I might find a like minded person to play against. Sometimes I wish I'd have had a son aswell as my little girl. I mean have you seen the artwork? I also may try out VASSEL.

However the one I will play the most will be the PC version. The added etc's will add to a great boardgame. The only aspect missing is the social side.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/1/2005 10:13:24 PM   
ravinhood


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Know what I miss most about board wargames from computer wargames? Rolling the dice. I really felt that I really was part of the outcome rolling those dice, it was my karma, my luck along with my skill of course getting those 3 to 1 and higher odds. But, the thrill of rolling that 1 or that 6 is just lost in computer wargames.

Also gone are the days of arguing the rules, now it's figuring how to hack and cheat in an online game or PBEM game. lol Not that I do it myself. But, have become aquainted with it many times in the last 10 years.

@Rhonda, heh, you're telling your age now cause I didn't know there was an American Heritage game of Battle Cry by Milton Bradley out before the 1961 or 1962 versions. ;)

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RE: demise of board games? - 6/2/2005 1:11:34 AM   
Blum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
games, wargames are minimal and most likely the lowest on the ladder.


I had no idea there was such a thing as board wargaming until a friend of mine brought "Gettysburg" AH to school during our last week of school in the 6th grade and I was intrigued by the counters and map board. That one session lead to buying more wargames and also discovering the world of APBA baseball from my older brother. Now I play OOTPB 6.0 and wargames and strategy games. ;)



this is exactly why i like PC games.
I loved Gettysburgh AH.
spent weeks decyphering the rules (english is NOT my native language and i bought Gettysburgh in english don't even know if a translation exists).
Meaning i had no opponent (who would be so crazy to buy this ?)
Meaning if i wanted to have one, i would have to translate the rules myself - speak about cheating when only one guy can read the rules ...

but i loved the game so that i played alone.
i was fortunate enough to have a big room, but still my mother insisted taht from time to time she cleans the table.
then the dog was not allowed anymore in myt room - you should see what damages a teckale can do to a confederate corps with its tail.

So i tried several times, never got farther than mid second day (already an achievement).

Then i foudn an opponent for War in the Pacific (VG).
We palyed one year every sunday evening and then some hours in the week.
never went to the end, of course.

And all these guys i had to explain to that i was not crzay and that NO DON'T you dare touch this, this is TF 16 with 2 carriers in it, bloody hell.

Now, i start my PC and i can play?
does'nt take dust and i can even play alone.

But playing against IA is not really funny.
when you land in Osaka, Nagoya and some in july 1942 in PACWAR, that's not because you're so smart but because IA never anticipated it...

Leon

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 10:01:46 AM   
Zap


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Coregames I see point you are making. Yes, socializing is important for many. I did not think that computer games would exclude that important aspect. Through the internet aren't there a number of method to play with someone or several at one time?
Pbem/Hot seat/cyberboard/ Ip-tcp are all methods I have seen people using. Iwill want to use one of these in the future.

If my post had a tone which seemed to say no war boardgames would exist, no that is not the case. It just seems to me that it is difficult to make things work for people to get together for a boardgame. My circumstances don't permit me to play.

Chess is a wonderful game to play one on one. I could find people to play chess. When it came to War games WWII/civil war/napolean/ancient/ect. I was unable to find that person.

Yes, in some future time who knows what Marvels will be seen. But in our time if you can't find an opponent and you want to play a board game version it seems a little difficult.
I have been following the WIF cyberboard game it seems they are trying to work out the kinks. At this time in my life I could not dedicate a certain time to get together with others to play over the internet. So Pbem looks best for me. A question, does each player have a board set up in his own home or are they using the file sent to them with the representation of the board and pieces?

Like Wodin says Lock n Load is so beatiful and as you state to feel the pieces are good reasons why people love the experience of one on one.

My point is that by necessity, convience and innovation the form of the future would seem to me to be computer. And as you noted maybe the computer of the future will make it possible for one to experience wargames as though he or she is moving a die cut or looking at the whole map of Europe and Asia just as beautiful as the Lock n Load.

I'm for whatever will increase the quality of games and the number of players. If warboardgames continues to thrieve great. I have read in the post how much people are enjoying them. I would want that experience to continue for those fortunate ones.

But you would have to agree with me the positives of the wargame(computer) are very attractive to would be players.

Everything fits neatly into a file folder when yuor done

Does all the tedious calculations/factoring/Line of sight/fog of war

you can still play with someone(socialize) throught the internet





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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 10:50:25 AM   
Arjuna


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Re social aspects. What would all say to Team Play, where you have teams of players on each side battling it out over a LAN. There you get the best of both worlds. You have the computer doing most of the number crunching and especially if it has a powerful AI that frees you up from micromanaging then you can make your plans and fight the battle while still throwing chips and drinking beer with your mates. Now wouldn't that be wargaming heaven.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 11:24:49 AM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I'm for whatever will increase the quality of games and the number of players. If warboardgames continues to thrieve great. I have read in the post how much people are enjoying them. I would want that experience to continue for those fortunate ones.

But you would have to agree with me the positives of the wargame(computer) are very attractive to would be players.



I agree that computers offer a great alternative, especially for those who can't get together with people physically to play games in person. My point has never been to undermine computer gaming, as that would be a futile (even silly) proposition. You don't go as far as some have in this thread, who suggest that computers represent the deathknell for board games, which means I agree with everything you said. There really is room for both in this world, and most gamers today probably would prefer it that way.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 11:47:38 AM   
Zap


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I have in other post had a stronger opinion in this regards but after consideration of present facts my opinion has changed. To boardgames "along with" computers as opposed to boardgames "a seldom practiced art" because of computers.

Besides, when I sit behind my Crystal ball the future I see is only my opinion.

I didn't have that opinion of you. I know you are open to computers, I've seen your post and never considered you to be someone with the caveman syndrome.

< Message edited by Zap -- 6/3/2005 11:55:19 AM >


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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 3:47:59 PM   
rhondabrwn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

@Rhonda, heh, you're telling your age now cause I didn't know there was an American Heritage game of Battle Cry by Milton Bradley out before the 1961 or 1962 versions. ;)


Yep, I'm 57.. the truth is out!

I'm thinking that my big brother bought the Civil War game when I was in Middle School, so that would be 1959-1960.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/3/2005 4:43:27 PM   
ravinhood


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You know I been tellin the Matrixgames guys this for awhile now. I believe wargaming is such a niche market because none of the industry gets out there and really demonstrates their product. Did you ever see Avalon Hill have a boardgame set in your local Mall? Did you ever see a Matrixgames representative do the same? How many TV ads do you see of board game wargames or even computer wargames on TV? Now, I've seen MADDEN FOOTBALL and Console games advertised on TV quite often, but, I have NEVER seen a computer wargame of any type advertised on TV. I'd think trying to get an advertising spot on the History Channel would be a good idea. Or when FRIENDS was a regular tv show. heh Now, it would be "Desperate Housewives", man a computer wargaming spot during that show, you'd have housewives all over the country buying computer wargames. lol Not, because they really want it, just because it was advertised during that show and so many people buy on impulse, they don't care what they are buying, they just buy it cause they saw it and it was NEW! lol

You can't just goto wargamers conventions and expect and increase in sales and customers. Those people there are "already" wargamers, not that many a newcomer to the wargaming genre at wargame conventions that I've ever been to.

It takes money to make money and it takes reinvesting that money into visual advertisement as well as magazine advertisement to open the market up to more new and prospective customers. Just think of the projected sales if some sort of demo setup were done in the likes of WALMARTS video gaming department. $$$$ Ching Ching But, alas without retail packages to back up the demonstrations, that sorta nips it in the bud for Matrixgames titles.

When I walk into a Gamestop, there's two video machines running some console game on it and of course the retail packages under it or very near it for sale. When I walk into Best Buy, there are sales caps with fancy new EA products on them, first thing a customer sees when they walk towards the computer gaming department. The only software outlet I walk into which I feel gives "equal" opportunity to all new games on display is "Hastings" music/book/video store. But, their gaming department is so bland and many unfilled spaces, it's like ghost shelves full of nothing but old product and the one new game display is the only thing really worth noting.

Another cheaper avenue of advertising though would be to pay some teenagers to plant wargame flyers on cars in shopping mall parking lots. Even if you picked up 2% increased sales, I don't think the cost of paper and ink would bite into it that much.

And that's what bugs me about this direct sales/internet sales business, do you really think the majority of gamers are on the internet? Do you really think the population of consumers on the internet is higher than retail consumers? Somehow I myself just can't swallow that just yet. Maybe in 50 years or so, but, from my own personal pollings, many people still do not "trust" the internet enough to give out personal information on it like a credit card or bank routing number. Maybe for wargames from Matrixgames it's different. I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall in their sales department and just see how many direct sales they are getting vs their retail sales before. ;)

But, here's another idea!! Create a Matrixgames buyer gamer card. That people can purchase in retail outlets. Worth the price of a game. They take up little to no space and people will wonder, what's this Matrixgames??? Is it the MATRIX?? Oh I gotta buy this lol. This way though they don't have to give out personal information and can call or use the internet to just order a game without worry about anything. Something else, at least put up a product magazine/manual in retail outlets, something colorful and eye catching on display so people can at least see what products you do offer for direct sales and download.

Main thing is the mainstream prospective consumer just isn't going to know about Matrixgames, HPS, Shrapnel products if there's nothing in retail outlets to show they exist even. Need something still in the retail market to continue to draw the uninformed, and the curious. The diehard wargamer will always know or find out about the products, but, DIE is the key word in that word. We gonna DIE someday and if yah don't bring in new customers, well the market will never increase in size and could very well eventually die itself.

I think that's a good topic for a new thread: How were you introduced to wargaming. Be interesting to see some of the reasons.

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/4/2005 7:56:23 AM   
Zap


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quote:

Do you really think the population of consumers on the internet is higher than retail consumers? Somehow I myself just can't swallow that just yet.


This is still true, people are wary of and slow to accept internet purchasing

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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/4/2005 2:02:52 PM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
This is still true, people are wary of and slow to accept internet purchasing



I put mail order in the same bread basket.


But download is a different kettle of fish.


(Loaves and fishes ) (Loaves and fishes )



-




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RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/4/2005 4:53:51 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
You know I been tellin the Matrixgames guys this for awhile now. I believe wargaming is such a niche market because none of the industry gets out there and really demonstrates their product. Did you ever see Avalon Hill have a boardgame set in your local Mall? Did you ever see a Matrixgames representative do the same?


There's a point there, but when we have the money to pay someone to stand around and do demos at a mall, I won't be worrying about what that point was.

quote:

How many TV ads do you see of board game wargames or even computer wargames on TV? Now, I've seen MADDEN FOOTBALL and Console games advertised on TV quite often, but, I have NEVER seen a computer wargame of any type advertised on TV. I'd think trying to get an advertising spot on the History Channel would be a good idea.


You have to realize that TV is a medium that's ideal for advertising some things, not for others. There are a lot of products you don't see on TV because they're difficult to "sell" visually. Besides that point, buying a TV spot to advertise one of our games once would probably blow our entire ad budget for the year. I'd like to believe you that it would somehow bring tons of people to out doorstep, eager to buy Battles In Italy, but I can't say I'm convinced.

quote:

Not, because they really want it, just because it was advertised during that show and so many people buy on impulse, they don't care what they are buying, they just buy it cause they saw it and it was NEW! lol


How do I join your fantasy?

quote:

You can't just goto wargamers conventions and expect and increase in sales and customers. Those people there are "already" wargamers, not that many a newcomer to the wargaming genre at wargame conventions that I've ever been to.


Origins and Gencon are not "wargamer" conventions - they're "big" conventions. I'd say Origins is probably 30% wargamers, which is very high for a big convention. However, the rest are gamers who might be interested in a good computer game - war or sci fi. GenCon is probably no more than 15% wargamers. We find a fair amount of cross over interest, particularly for our sci fi titles among the non-wargamers. It's still a great way to spread the word.

You have to think for a sec and ask yourself why, in forty years, wargaming has not made it fully out of the niche. It's come close, but there seems to be a limit beyond which it won't go. I doubt everyone trying to market wargames in that time period has been a nincompoop and I'm know some of your suggestions at least have been tried with much the same logic - the more "mainstream focus". Do you know what that taught the wargame makers? Wargames are - by design - a niche. You can design yourself out of that niche and make a "pseudo-wargame" that appeals to a larger market. Trying to sell real wargames to a larger market has unfortunately shown fairly poor results. It appears that a person either "gets" wargaming or they don't and the "gets" are a fairly small group of the population. Very hard to convert a "don't get" to a "get", it's not like showing someone a new sport, a new car or anything else that's relatively intuitive.

quote:

It takes money to make money and it takes reinvesting that money into visual advertisement as well as magazine advertisement to open the market up to more new and prospective customers. Just think of the projected sales if some sort of demo setup were done in the likes of WALMARTS video gaming department. $$$$ Ching Ching But, alas without retail packages to back up the demonstrations, that sorta nips it in the bud for Matrixgames titles.


The key thing is return on advertising investment. There's no question sales would go up due to a TV ad or Walmart demo. However, whether they would go up enough to cover the additional channel/advertising/promotional costs (not to mention make a profit and "re-invest") is doubtful. Wargaming is very promotion-sensitive when marketed to the right segment of the population. Wargaming is remarkably non-promotion sensitive when marketed with a shotgun approach to anyone that walks by. Based on what we've seen, my belief is that you'd take a million bucks, promote like crazy to the mainstream audience, get an additional $250k in sales and go broke. Please note, we've gone to retail in the past and also very recently with GGWaW. It can work, but it has to be setup very carefully and your sales forecasts have to be realistic.

quote:

When I walk into a Gamestop, there's two video machines running some console game on it and of course the retail packages under it or very near it for sale. When I walk into Best Buy, there are sales caps with fancy new EA products on them, first thing a customer sees when they walk towards the computer gaming department. The only software outlet I walk into which I feel gives "equal" opportunity to all new games on display is "Hastings" music/book/video store. But, their gaming department is so bland and many unfilled spaces, it's like ghost shelves full of nothing but old product and the one new game display is the only thing really worth noting.


Note that most games you see are console games. Within that segment, most are quick action type games that are very simple and which a customer walking by can pretty much play instantly by picking up the game controller. Selling someone in this way means they basically take a look, go "Wow" and walk over to try it. Wargames are the equivalent of "Excuse me, Sir? Do you have 15 - 30 minutes to pause from your shopping while I explain this great new game for you so that you can start playing? It's historical, it's accurate and it's full of great maps and counters. What do you say?"

quote:

Another cheaper avenue of advertising though would be to pay some teenagers to plant wargame flyers on cars in shopping mall parking lots. Even if you picked up 2% increased sales, I don't think the cost of paper and ink would bite into it that much.


This type of idea has some potential, IMHO. You could call this "asymmetric marketing" I suppose - there are many online ways to do the equivalent and they tend to be inexpensive enough that even if they are somewhat scattershot, they make some sense for wargames.

quote:

And that's what bugs me about this direct sales/internet sales business, do you really think the majority of gamers are on the internet? Do you really think the population of consumers on the internet is higher than retail consumers?


No, when did we ever say that? However, if you track the statistics, 30-60% are for our key markets and that percentage is growing at a fast clip yearly. Online download sales are growing much faster than online "shipped sales" on a yearly basis and are projected to grow at a meteoric rate for the next five years as even more people become comfortable with them.

quote:

Somehow I myself just can't swallow that just yet. Maybe in 50 years or so, but, from my own personal pollings, many people still do not "trust" the internet enough to give out personal information on it like a credit card or bank routing number. Maybe for wargames from Matrixgames it's different. I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall in their sales department and just see how many direct sales they are getting vs their retail sales before. ;)


I've seen some bigger polls. We don't release sales numbers, but suffice to say that each year has been better than the last.

quote:

But, here's another idea!! Create a Matrixgames buyer gamer card. That people can purchase in retail outlets. Worth the price of a game. They take up little to no space and people will wonder, what's this Matrixgames??? Is it the MATRIX?? Oh I gotta buy this lol. This way though they don't have to give out personal information and can call or use the internet to just order a game without worry about anything. Something else, at least put up a product magazine/manual in retail outlets, something colorful and eye catching on display so people can at least see what products you do offer for direct sales and download.


All that costs a fair amount of money - in the case of the buyer card probably a lot of additional planning, implementation and then program management as well, if one decided to do it. I understand what you're aiming at, all I can say is that we're constantly bouncing ideas around as well and there are several "experiments" in the works.

quote:

Main thing is the mainstream prospective consumer just isn't going to know about Matrixgames, HPS, Shrapnel products if there's nothing in retail outlets to show they exist even. Need something still in the retail market to continue to draw the uninformed, and the curious. The diehard wargamer will always know or find out about the products, but, DIE is the key word in that word. We gonna DIE someday and if yah don't bring in new customers, well the market will never increase in size and could very well eventually die itself.


In all honestly, you need to realize that a company like EA makes _billions_ of dollars. Console games out-sell PC games by a large ratio. Retail stores are reluctant to make space and promote a PC game (which immediately sells less than console games, even if it's Civilization IV), particularly one that won't appeal to every single PC gamer out there.

Retail still has a purpose and getting the word out is part of that. The GGWaW release to retail was intended also as a way to make sure we had a presence in retail this year for customers who never look around online. But, retail is an expensive proposition and a difficult match. The retail market of today is _much_ different from five or ten years ago.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 78
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/4/2005 7:50:45 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
Lol so you're telling me that "Internet in a box" and "genital enlargement" "how to make a quick buck on the internet", advertising programs that are on TV all the damn time, make more money than even you guys? lol That's sad man, very sad. hahaah I can't help but laugh to think the "genital enlargement" program makes more money than you guys. sorry but that's hilarious. [I'm sure someone is going to make funny of this about me watching it, but, I've been made funny of before, so bring it on. :) ] The program itself is funny just to watch an listen to the bimbos talking about; well genitals. lol Oh and then there's Robert Tilton the socalled evangalist they ran out of Texas, who went to Oklahoma and still has his nightly "God (he) needs your tithes", he prays over your "money" haha that is the biggest riot of a program to watch even over the genitals enlargement one. Even HE?? makes more money than you guys??

Even though I hate some of your prices, I'm just trying to give suggestions to help you out. I'm near 50 so I'm just giving feedback from someone my own age. But, I can hardly think a 13 year old has so much cashflow that $50 to $80 games are within his/her budget and that's really the age you should be focusing on with entry level wargames. Sorta like GGWAW, but, even it might be a little to complicated for todays brain of a teenager.

I probably wouldn't be so hardass or penny pincher if I hadn't of been able to get wargames at $3.64 when I started and many many many computer titles less than $30.
It's really hard to grasp the increase in cost to us, when wages really don't compare to the increase for certainly your low income families/teenagers. I guess if you're just shooting for the middle to upper class, then those prices appear reasonable to "some" of them. (I'm middle class, but, even I have my cap on game prices). ;)

It just still boils down to painting yourself a picture in front of the mainstream publics eye, moreso than just a game on a shelf. Need wall posters, big eye catching displays, things that catch peoples attention moreso than the 1 inch side of a box on a shelf or even worse just an internet website, once again the mainstream doesn't even know about or is aware of.

Even I myself who have been on the internet since 1995 didn't even know about Matrixgames and Wargamer.com until a couple years ago, maybe 3 now, lol it's been awhile for sure. Now, why wasn't I informed in some wargame I bought? Why wasn't I informed by some publicity production at my local wargame/software outlets? I don't even recall how I became aquainted with Matrixgames and Wargamer.com, but, most likely it had to come from Gamespy since that was my local hangout until I found these. You can bet Gamespy puts out some public relations info, hell it comes with just about every game now, a Gamespy program to play games online. [Heh I bet you guys wish I had never found it eh?] :)

But, now I'm on other forums and you won't hear me bringing up pricing of Slitherine games or Battlefront games or Triumph Studios. Their prices are reasonable from my point of view. But, then I waltz over to the Matrixgame site and whammo $64.99 for "Lock n Load". lol Bang you're dead. haha I was really thinking about buying this title also, had at least the eye quality of "Squad Leader" and from readings the gameplay is just as good, if not better. But, $64.99 man, thas just toooooo much. And no I'm not going to compare it to other board games of today. I get Strategy & Tactics and that's SIX games a year for a little over $100, plenty of gameplay and oodles of "history". I haven't bought a retail board game in 20 years, and I was fixing to get one I thought. heh Guess I can thank you for keeping my record still clean. ;)

Dontcha just love grumpy old consumers? ;)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 79
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/4/2005 8:10:10 PM   
FlyingElvis


Posts: 79
Joined: 7/27/2004
From: Boston
Status: offline
Obviously, price point effects demand for any product. However, Matrix apparently has come to the conclusion that pricing a game such as LnL at, say, $50, is not going to generate enough revenue, i.e. additional orders, to make up for the lose in margin.

Anyone who has ever taken a marketing course knows that you price your product to maximize revenue, or to "what the market will bear" to maximize revenue I should say.

However, its not always so simple. You need to look at market penetration. Being their first boardgame, perhaps they could be more aggressive on pricing, to the detriment of profit margin, to get the game in more hands with the idea of building a customer base for future products.

Anyway, enough with marketing 101. I just plucked down my hard earned money pre-ordering LnL. This game has gotten me excited in boardgaming all over again. Its been dormant in me since my teen years.

< Message edited by FlyingElvis -- 6/4/2005 8:12:15 PM >


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(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 80
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/5/2005 12:43:51 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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That's fine Flying Elvis go on over to the DARK SIDE! lol The REBELS will win eventually. ;)

(in reply to FlyingElvis)
Post #: 81
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/5/2005 5:55:39 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
quote:

Very hard to convert a "don't get" to a "get", it's not like showing someone a new sport, a new car or anything else that's relatively intuitive.


One reason to add to this is parents (particularlly mothers) see it as violence, think their child will grow up to be a criminal. So when the kid ask for the game they get the "no" answer.
It a bigger reason than we might think. That is why the war game companies started to call it a "hobby" in their public relation campaigns and steered away the use of the terms "wargaming", right?

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(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 82
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/5/2005 6:00:36 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
The thread title "Demise of the Board games" Iwas not going to buy it but the price seems steep. If the other negatives reasons given above for the possible demise of boardgames don't kill it, will the price tag?

Crap on, the high price of paper products!!!!!!

< Message edited by Zap -- 6/5/2005 6:02:18 AM >


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(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 83
RE: demise of board games? (in reply to sarge - 6/5/2005 7:16:11 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Crap on, the high price of paper products!!!!!!


Heh, a new form of toilet paper. ;)

(in reply to Zap)
Post #: 84
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