RE: What about EXP?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: What about EXP?

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[Poll]

Should changing the aircraft upgrade path cost Political points?

Yes

69% (145)

30% (64)

Total Votes : 209

(last vote on : 1/17/2005 7:42:03 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:07:03 PM

Tanaka

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Voted YES. This game needs to be as historical as possible with some choices with limits.

Is this going to be an optional switch for the game??? Seems like a lot of people are going to prefer to keep playing with the historical planes that were really there. I know id like the choice of playing a more historical game vs playing a more fantasy game.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/5/2005 3:06:54 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:08:45 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Is this going to be an optional switch for the game??? Seems like a lot of people are going to prefer to keep playing with the historical planes that were really there. I know id like the choice of playing a more historical game vs playing a more fantasy game.

toggle yes/no

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 32

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:12:54 PM

Xargun

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
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I voted yes as without some penalty every unit will be flying the best aircraft available on both sides... As for the amount of PP cost it should be variant, depending on what model your convert them too. If you convert Claudes to Zeros it should be very cheap, but if you convert Nates to Zeros it should be expensive... Also, it should be fairly cheap to convert backwards... Converting Zeros to Nates should be close to free as you are losing a lot of capability in that switch - but you may have 4 zeros in pool and 1000 Nates...

The cost with an Army unit upgrading to a Naval aircraft (if allowed) should be much higher due to the difficulty with the two branches cooperating - moreso for Japan than the allies.

Forcing units to only upgrade with national aircraft would be a good addition too... British bomber groups should not be flying B-17s or B-29s... But if not possible that can be easily handled via House Rules.

Also, if we get to convert groups to whatever we want, we need some way to stop auto-upgrades of factories... Be a real pain if you convert all your fighters to A6M2s only to have all the factories autoconvert to A6M3s on you...

Xargun

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 33

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:23:37 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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quote:

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

You will never satisfy everyone. I'm positive I don't need to remind you of this.
Some people want complete freedom to do what they want, when they want, others want a game very closely aligned to historical accuracy. I can play the game either way.

quote:

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future.

Maybe so, but never admit that you goofed when that future time comes.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 34

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:27:39 PM

testarossa

Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Also, if we get to convert groups to whatever we want, we need some way to stop auto-upgrades of factories... Be a real pain if you convert all your fighters to A6M2s only to have all the factories autoconvert to A6M3s on you...

Xargun

Yep, something like convert - do not convert, similar to aicraft upgrade button in the squadron menu.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Xargun)

Post #: 35

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:31:53 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I look at it as a free for all ... thats what you guys wanted ... thats what was built.

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future.

That's not an entirely fair statement. Everyone is not for it 100%,but that's what the polls lead the devs to think. The polls are hip shots which only offer extremes, not well thought out design enhancements. CV coord thread addresses issues which implementing it have caused without balancing other issues like CAP etc. This toy feature you are putting in the game (the aircraft upgrade WALMART), if included, needs to be severly tempered as well.

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 36

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:33:23 PM

WhoCares

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Joined: 7/6/2004
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We are still talking about changing single units, not the whole upgrade path, right? (Mogamis first post confused me a little bit)

Anyway, assuming we are talking about single units, yes, I'd pay PPs for changed upgrades. The price tag - no glue

Maybe 10x the max. number of planes (=270PP for the usual Zero Daitai => ~1 upgrade per week worth of PPs)... And remember, you would have to pay the same price for any future upgrade of those airgroups.

How about downgrades (except Kamikaze groups?)? Any special treatments for those? Maybe 1.5x the usual price?

< Message edited by WhoCares -- 1/5/2005 9:40:03 PM >

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 37

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:43:37 PM

testarossa

Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
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Hmm, I thougt the poll IS about changing upgrade paths from historical ones. The discussion about PP or exp penalty for upgrading squads is hijacking.

< Message edited by testarossa -- 1/5/2005 5:23:59 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:45:40 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The Allied production rates are 1711 aircraft per month when the game starts. It only goes upwards from there.

Even dealing with the FG (the largest unit in the game), thats 23 complete groups of aircraft every single month.

And yet you are so squeezed on production of P-40Es (40 per month) through 1942 that it is impossible to keep more than one or two squadrons of them in action, while you try to make do with P-39Ds, Hurricane IIs and worse. This is pretty much as it should be, of course, and is part of the challenge that faced the Allies historically and that is presented nicely by the game design.

Still, all the talk around here is about how to enhance Japanese production capabilities so that they can have the latest models in action in large numbers, history be d@mned. Where's the historical challenge in this?

I just don't get it - and count me as one customer who never asked for any of these changes.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 39

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:48:55 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

We are still talking about changing single units, not the whole upgrade path, right? (Mogamis first post confused me a little bit)

No, by virtue of how the code works, there really are no upgrade paths anymore. You go in and *set* the upgrade path for the unit to what you want.

Then you order it to upgrade now.

Basically, you are free to change every upgrade path there is in the game to whatever you want.

There are some controls to reflect catagories (ie: a naval bomber can't jump into the land fighter catagory, etc).

(in reply to WhoCares)

Post #: 40

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:52:28 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I look at it as a free for all ... thats what you guys wanted ... thats what was built.

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future.

Don't blame me for this. I never wanted any of this nonsense and have said so start to finish.

All I ask is that a game designer select an interesting, game-able subject, do a good job of researching and building it, then present it for me to buy and play, in the same sense that a writer presents thoughts, ideas, opinions, facts, and other material for the reader's perusal and consideration.

I hope you're all happy with what this has become. It's like an Iraqi police station. It doesn't serve any identifiable function and any minute it could be all over the place and make no sense at all..

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 41

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:54:28 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

And yet you are so squeezed on production of P-40Es (40 per month) through 1942 that it is impossible to keep more than one or two squadrons of them in action, while you try to make do with P-39Ds, Hurricane IIs and worse.

Yea, you wonder why the Allies were not doing so good in 41/42 ?

Don't come to the war without bringing your toys ... it tends to hurt.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 42

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 10:55:26 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Don't blame me for this. I never wanted any of this nonsense and have said so start to finish.

Don't worry, there is an off switch for people who are not interested.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 43

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:01:25 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

im really more interested in keeping older planes in the game longer than turning all my planes into the best models.

i was looking for a more automatic upgrade overide so i could keep using nells instead of betty's etc...

how could anyone possibly oppose this? this should be incorporated into the game without a toggle in my opinion.

as far as a choice of upgrading yes we should have a choice but with historical realistic penalties.

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Post #: 44

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:02:42 PM

pasternakski

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Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Don't blame me for this. I never wanted any of this nonsense and have said so start to finish.

Don't worry, there is an off switch for people who are not interested.

Yet the entire fabric of the game is infected with it. Look at a list of the changes that have been made at the behest of posters on these forums, Frag. Look at the degree to which modding and fiddling around with the data have taken precedence over the integrity of the core design. You can't help but see how far this game has drifted from what Grigsby's original focus was when UV was created (and WitP, perforce, contemplated) - an operational/strategic game on the Pacific Theater in WWII that places the players in the circumstances faced by the historical adversaries.

Two years ago, I said this: "If you want a World War II in the Pacific wargame construction set, fine. I'd like one, too. But this is not it."

I wish someone had been listening.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 45

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:07:39 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Different people want different things.

Go back and look at the poll results for player selectable upgrades. The numbers put the diehards in the very small minority.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 46

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:08:17 PM

Brady

Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
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Aside from Navy plane being available for Only Navy Units and Army ones For Army Units, I see no nead to further penalise the Japanese by paying political cost to efect a change in an uprade path that was "Bad" at best in it its atempt to reflect history, if we asume the present up grade path is historicaly corect were wrong, If the adation of the New abaility to swich upgrade paths is an atempt to give the player more choices and corect this than I think were on the right path to add an adational cost is to stear this ship back toward the path it was on in the first place and is in efect a step backwards.

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Post #: 47

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:09:57 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

i was looking for a more automatic upgrade overide so i could keep using nells instead of betty's etc...

Thats in the works ... one of the implications of player selected choice is that factories need to be more controllable ... odds are that the automatic upgrade will go away to balance out the choice aspect. The two don't really fit well together.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 48

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:12:32 PM

Brady

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"one of the implications of player selected choice is that factories need to be more controllable ... odds are that the automatic upgrade will go away to balance out the choice aspect. The two don't really fit well together. "

Thats very cool

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WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE

Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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Post #: 49

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:16:31 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

i was looking for a more automatic upgrade overide so i could keep using nells instead of betty's etc...

Thats in the works ... one of the implications of player selected choice is that factories need to be more controllable ... odds are that the automatic upgrade will go away to balance out the choice aspect. The two don't really fit well together.

thats great!!! thanks guys for all the hard work u guys put in for us crazy people!!! we may gripe and complain but deep down we all know yall are the best!!!

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Post #: 50

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:18:28 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

i was looking for a more automatic upgrade overide so i could keep using nells instead of betty's etc...

Thats in the works ... one of the implications of player selected choice is that factories need to be more controllable ... odds are that the automatic upgrade will go away to balance out the choice aspect. The two don't really fit well together.

by the way i do not think there should be a political cost for downgrading. you lose enough by taking the risk to use a less valuable plane.

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Post #: 51

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:28:46 PM

testarossa

Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Don't blame me for this. I never wanted any of this nonsense and have said so start to finish.

Don't worry, there is an off switch for people who are not interested.

Yet the entire fabric of the game is infected with it. Look at a list of the changes that have been made at the behest of posters on these forums, Frag. Look at the degree to which modding and fiddling around with the data have taken precedence over the integrity of the core design. You can't help but see how far this game has drifted from what Grigsby's original focus was when UV was created (and WitP, perforce, contemplated) - an operational/strategic game on the Pacific Theater in WWII that places the players in the circumstances faced by the historical adversaries.

Two years ago, I said this: "If you want a World War II in the Pacific wargame construction set, fine. I'd like one, too. But this is not it."

I wish someone had been listening.

Man, I bought this game because I was listening to you, grognards

. So far it stands up to the promises.

_____________________________

Dr. Miller: I should've called the marines!
Dalton: They're few, they're proud... And they ain't here!!!

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 52

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:30:36 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
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This is the only answer needed for anyone concerned by this new feature.

If you want it use it.
If you don't like it, then ignore it.

Now on to CV TF coordination and LBA attacks on ports and shipping, and the China solution.!

< Message edited by Halsey -- 1/5/2005 3:35:16 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:38:08 PM

pasternakski

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You still got the "America - Love It or Leave It" bumper sticker on the de Soto, Halsey?

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 54

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:40:45 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You still got the "America - Love It or Leave It" bumper sticker on the de Soto, Halsey?

"You can have my WiTP when you pry it from my cold, dead hard drive."

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 55

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:47:25 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Different people want different things.

Go back and look at the poll results for player selectable upgrades. The numbers put the diehards in the very small minority.

Okay, Frag, say you're running a restaurant. Do you create your dishes by committee, or do you seize the creative initiative and produce food that persuades the consumer palate without pandering to it? Your menu of dishes, of course, is varied in order to suit a wide range of tastes, but you do not throw your talent to the dogs.

Tout suite. Comme il faut. And the other two or three French words I know. I don't expect my girlfriend to be anything other than who she is (unless we're roleplaying, of course). If a game says it's a game, let it be a game. Where's the room for polls and such? If the product announces itself as a salad shooter for the plastic fantastic home gourmet, fine. Let's just have some integrity. Set out on a path and follow it.

All right, I'm done talking about it. I'll be curmudgeonly, but I have nothing else to say on the subject. I'm going back to playing the best WWII Pacific wargame ever published ...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 1/5/2005 4:48:33 PM >

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Post #: 56

RE: What about EXP? - 1/5/2005 11:49:25 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
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It's on my 1968 Corvair.

An on/off button is fine. That should satisfy the grognards and sci-fi players alike.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 1/5/2005 3:51:45 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: What about EXP? - 1/6/2005 12:03:20 AM

Bulldog61

Posts: 1517
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From: Aurora,CO
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I voted Yes. It's too easy for the Japanese to expand their industry as it is now. This will lead to a very ahistoric situation as the Japanesse will be flying only the best possible A/C while the allies are stuck with what they get.

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Post #: 58

RE: What about EXP? - 1/6/2005 12:07:02 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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I voted yes.

Reason? Gamey tactics. While no one would do it, without any hit it would be possible to go from A6M2s to A6M3s (assuming you had them) to A5M4s, and Back to A6M2s. The player should have to do something to facillitate a change. That said, I don't mind if they don't pay PPs, but if the pay in supply, HI, etc. But the player should not be allowed that as soon as all planes get shot down he can instantly up or downgrade and get new planes. I applaud giving the player a choice, but lets not make it gamey.

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(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 59

RE: What about EXP? - 1/6/2005 12:07:34 AM

madflava13

Posts: 1530
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From: Alexandria, VA
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I think NO is a better option. There's already a built in cost - you have to be able to stock the planes. If you are only making 8 B-29s a month or whatever, yet you switch all your bomber squadrons to B-29s, you'll have a ton of understrength squadrons for a long time. That's the penalty. On the IJN side, it's even more pronounced, since you take a supply hit for changing your factories. That alone is a sufficient penalty in my mind to keep people from doing crazy things... No need to tack on a PP penalty.

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Post #: 60

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RE: What about EXP?