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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:20:04 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Hello, all--

This happened to me in Scenario 15, latest version (1.4). Theoretically it belongs in bug reports, but it is so serious I thought I'd mention it here, and see if anyone else has had anything similar happen. And I don't have a repeatable save, as I was playing the AI and didn't realize what had really happened until I peeked at the Japanese forces later.

In brief: I was preparing to invade Munda with the First and Second Marine Divisions, the Fourth Marine Regiment, and a few supporting battalions. I had conducted extensive recon and bombing for the previous month, and also had a sub snooping around. Intel indicated about 10,000 Japanese troops, so I figured I had plenty of force to do the job.

Anyway, when the bombardment force arrived, it was like that scene in the cartoon where Daffy Duck gets blasted by an array of shotguns pointing in from all four edges of the frame. Expecting little opposition, I had ordered the escorts to bombard. The force sustained several _hundred_ shell hits; four DDs immediately sank. Many other ships were damaged. Then the transports arrived, and suffered a similar hail of shells. By the end of the day, most of the infantry had disembarked--I felt I had to leave the transports to unload, and I also threw in the second wave, which had additional supplies. The troops were sufficiently disrupted that they were unable to dislodge the Japanese division that was entrenched to level 9; eventually I had to cancel the attack. I sent in a second bombardment force to try to reduce the murderous fire on the transports; although I of course ordered the escorts to stand off, Salt Lake City was sunk and Pensacola seriously damaged (memo to self: have Pensacola class stick to escorting CVs in the future). Eventually the defensive fire slacked and I was able to land additional troops and take the island.

Following is a list of ships I lost--this does not count cripples that were knocked off by air and subs. All the ones sunk by 5.5" shell were direct casualties. To be continued...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

Post #: 1

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:21:00 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

Continued...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 2

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:21:54 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

and finally...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 3

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:27:57 AM

Gem35

Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline

neat-o you got 3 of his carriers

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 4

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:30:31 AM

rogueusmc

Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

So.....what is the bug?

If you are just talking about the heavy losses and a screwed invasion....remember Tarawa?

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 3/2/2005 8:32:34 PM >

_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 5

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:34:39 AM

Skyros

Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline

Good thing the allied player has plenty of Aks and stuff

_____________________________

(in reply to rogueusmc)

Post #: 6

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:36:31 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

Fundamentally, you can't attack well fortified positions unless you destroy all of the supplies ahead of time. Even then, if you are playing against the AI, you will probably still get hammered.

You mentioned that you had been bombing it a lot - were you bombing the port, airfield or troops? The only thing that gets rid of CDs is port bombing.

Also, you need to always have a number of bombardment fleets go in ahead of time and repeatedly if you really do intend to invade. Essentially, every time you send bombers, you should send battleships too. If you really, really want a well defended base, be prepared to do that for a month or so.

Is that realistic? No, but it is what is required by the game.

And don't forget, after all that, the Japanese troops will still be "Gods" and fight forever.

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Gem35)

Post #: 7

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:36:46 AM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

Did you peak later to see what he had forted up there?

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 8

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:38:52 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

After this fiasco, I decided, for a variety of reasons, to abandon the game, so I re-loaded with the Japanese as the human player, and decided to take a look and see exactly what the Japanese had that had shredded my landing force. So I checked Munda, and found only three units, including a fragment of a base force hiding in the jungle from the US Marines and Army. It didn't look too impressive, so I clicked on TOE, and discovered the following. In the immortal words of Charlie Brown, "AAAAAAAAAAAGH!" I have a current save, but I have no idea when this happened, so I don't have a repeatable save. Maybe next game I'll save every turn just in case. BTW, note that these guns are not the same ones that wreaked havoc on the landing force--not sure if that's because they "upgraded," or if their equipment got changed randomly again. Also, these are supposed to be 245 support squads. Has anyone else had anything like this happen?

--Doug

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 9

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:39:02 AM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

The air recon is almost worhless. It will help the DL levels at the target hex. If intel shows 10,000 men, it it probably closer to 30-40,000 men.

Don't ever use your escorts in the first 3-4 days of bombardments. They always get smoked. Looks like you needed some BB's to help take these guys down.

_____________________________

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 10

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 4:40:34 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpitfireIX

Hello, all--

This happened to me in Scenario 15, latest version (1.4). Theoretically it belongs in bug reports, but it is so serious I thought I'd mention it here, and see if anyone else has had anything similar happen. And I don't have a repeatable save, as I was playing the AI and didn't realize what had really happened until I peeked at the Japanese forces later.

In brief: I was preparing to invade Munda with the First and Second Marine Divisions, the Fourth Marine Regiment, and a few supporting battalions. I had conducted extensive recon and bombing for the previous month, and also had a sub snooping around. Intel indicated about 10,000 Japanese troops, so I figured I had plenty of force to do the job.

Anyway, when the bombardment force arrived, it was like that scene in the cartoon where Daffy Duck gets blasted by an array of shotguns pointing in from all four edges of the frame. Expecting little opposition, I had ordered the escorts to bombard. The force sustained several _hundred_ shell hits; four DDs immediately sank. Many other ships were damaged. Then the transports arrived, and suffered a similar hail of shells. By the end of the day, most of the infantry had disembarked--I felt I had to leave the transports to unload, and I also threw in the second wave, which had additional supplies. The troops were sufficiently disrupted that they were unable to dislodge the Japanese division that was entrenched to level 9; eventually I had to cancel the attack. I sent in a second bombardment force to try to reduce the murderous fire on the transports; although I of course ordered the escorts to stand off, Salt Lake City was sunk and Pensacola seriously damaged (memo to self: have Pensacola class stick to escorting CVs in the future). Eventually the defensive fire slacked and I was able to land additional troops and take the island.

Following is a list of ships I lost--this does not count cripples that were knocked off by air and subs. All the ones sunk by 5.5" shell were direct casualties. To be continued...

So, you bombed Munda for a month!?! And you lost 2 and a half pages worth of ships to 5.5" CD fire? WTF? How many 5.5s were there? Did you have cruisers in the amphibious TF to provide suppression fire? Wish you had the save! This sounds a bit much any way you slice it.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 11

245 CD Guns?????? From where? - 3/3/2005 4:44:12 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

245 CD guns????????????????????

WTF?????????????????????

Is there really a Japanese base force with that number of guns, or is this something really, really goofy with the unlimited build of base forces by the AI?

Frag, Pry? Any ideas what is going on?

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 12

RE: 245 CD Guns?????? From where? - 3/3/2005 4:56:53 AM

byron13

Posts: 1589
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline

WTF is right! 245 CD guns? In a fragment? All I can say is: WTF? What the f'ing F?

Spit, my friend, you got hosed by something that ain't right.

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 13

RE: 245 CD Guns?????? From where? - 3/3/2005 4:58:16 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

245 CD guns????????????????????

WTF?????????????????????

Is there really a Japanese base force with that number of guns, or is this something really, really goofy with the unlimited build of base forces by the AI?

Frag, Pry? Any ideas what is going on?

Dave Baranyi

I'm quite certain this is a bug, as the unit's original TOE included 245 support squads.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 14

RE: 245 CD Guns?????? From where? - 3/3/2005 4:59:55 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline

Jeez, it almost sounds like to take an island you have to drop Fat Man on it to blow up all the dang CD guns. double WTF is in order gentlemen.

_____________________________

Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med

Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.

(in reply to byron13)

Post #: 15

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:10:18 AM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

All I know is that I hope PBEM opponents don't take advantage of this kind of crap appearing after putting so much time into a game. If I see this, the puppy will be shipped home to some dark useless and cold base like Juneau.

_____________________________

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 16

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:17:07 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The air recon is almost worhless. It will help the DL levels at the target hex. If intel shows 10,000 men, it it probably closer to 30-40,000 men.

Don't ever use your escorts in the first 3-4 days of bombardments. They always get smoked. Looks like you needed some BB's to help take these guys down.

The TF had 8 BB, 2 CA, 1 CL, and 4DD, and a couple of DMS, IIRC. I had the escorts bombard because I was thinking of Omaha Beach.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 17

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:18:23 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

Betcha a 6-pack this only shows up in games vs the AI; it's trying to expand to fill out the aviation support per the cheatin' AI rules, but something is pointing at the wrong slot. Or something. Well, if you have had enough to drink it makes sense anyway.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 18

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:22:09 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Betcha a 6-pack this only shows up in games vs the AI; it's trying to expand to fill out the aviation support per the cheatin' AI rules, but something is pointing at the wrong slot. Or something. Well, if you have had enough to drink it makes sense anyway.

If this shows up in PBEM too than I am only playing the Japanese side from now on...

(Visualizing three or four of these 245 gun BFs on an atoll...

)

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 19

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:22:47 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Betcha a 6-pack this only shows up in games vs the AI; it's trying to expand to fill out the aviation support per the cheatin' AI rules, but something is pointing at the wrong slot. Or something. Well, if you have had enough to drink it makes sense anyway.

That's why I'd like to know if anyone else has seen anything like this.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 20

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:26:11 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Corrupt fragment + AI growing base unit = monster CD count

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 21

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:27:31 AM

Tom Hunter

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline

Spitfire I am sympathetic you got screwed by some messed up aspect of the game engine.

But when I read 245 costal guns I got the best laugh of the week, my God no wonder you got hosed.

I doubt that Japan had 245 4.7" costal guns in the entire Pacific. And I find the fact that they fire 5.5" shells even more interesting.

You just convinced me to delay my counter offensives until I can pound the daylights out of the Japanese for months before going ashore.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 22

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:27:47 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Betcha a 6-pack this only shows up in games vs the AI; it's trying to expand to fill out the aviation support per the cheatin' AI rules, but something is pointing at the wrong slot. Or something. Well, if you have had enough to drink it makes sense anyway.

If this shows up in PBEM too than I am only playing the Japanese side from now on...

(Visualizing three or four of these 245 gun BFs on an atoll...)

Dave Baranyi

Interestingly enough, LCU casualties were relatively light. The Second Marine Division lost about 10%, and the other units somewhat less. Disruption was really high, but I'm not sure how much of that was caused by the landing. I theorize that the infantry got off the transports quickly enough to avoid the worst of the damage.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to ADavidB)

Post #: 23

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:27:58 AM

Tankerace

Posts: 6400
Joined: 3/21/2003
From: Stillwater, OK, United States
Status: offline

How is all the corruption happening? It seems to me that at least half or more bug reports I see, the answer is explained as something getting corrupted.

_____________________________

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 24

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 5:31:39 AM

SpitfireIX

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Spitfire I am sympathetic you got screwed by some messed up aspect of the game engine.

But when I read 245 costal guns I got the best laugh of the week, my God no wonder you got hosed.

I doubt that Japan had 245 4.7" costal guns in the entire Pacific. And I find the fact that they fire 5.5" shells even more interesting.

You just convinced me to delay my counter offensives until I can pound the daylights out of the Japanese for months before going ashore.

This game isn't that big a deal--there were other reasons for starting over. It was my first game played more than a couple of months, and I'd made a lot of mistakes.(Though I'm waiting until the next patch; also should probably wait until summer; I wasted too much time in January and February playing it.)

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Tom Hunter)

Post #: 25

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 12:14:35 PM

harrer

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpitfireIX

After this fiasco, I decided, for a variety of reasons, to abandon the game, so I re-loaded with the Japanese as the human player, and decided to take a look and see exactly what the Japanese had that had shredded my landing force. So I checked Munda, and found only three units, including a fragment of a base force hiding in the jungle from the US Marines and Army. It didn't look too impressive, so I clicked on TOE, and discovered the following. In the immortal words of Charlie Brown, "AAAAAAAAAAAGH!" I have a current save, but I have no idea when this happened, so I don't have a repeatable save. Maybe next game I'll save every turn just in case. BTW, note that these guns are not the same ones that wreaked havoc on the landing force--not sure if that's because they "upgraded," or if their equipment got changed randomly again. Also, these are supposed to be 245 support squads. Has anyone else had anything like this happen?

--Doug

EEEEEHHHHH .. I see 1295 troops on the top but no gun ? ? ? normal ? ?

(in reply to SpitfireIX)

Post #: 26

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 12:31:07 PM

michaelm75au

Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

But what did the unit actually have?

The screen dumps are showing the TOE of the BF, not what it actually has.

Michael

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 27

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 12:34:50 PM

harrer

Posts: 753
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline

oh .. you're right .. maybe no more guns .. and with 3 supplies ... and 6 support ..

Harrer

(in reply to michaelm75au)

Post #: 28

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 12:42:01 PM

michaelm75au

Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

I also thought LCU fragments did not have a TOE.
If you pressed the TOE button, it came up blank. This might just be a display problem which seems to persist with fragments (ie something left over from some other unit that used the same fragment slot in the past.)

At least, the leader looks okay.

Michael

< Message edited by michaelm -- 3/3/2005 7:43:41 PM >

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 29

RE: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!! - 3/3/2005 1:41:54 PM

Halsey

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

Man! I need some CD units like this one!

_____________________________

(in reply to harrer)

Post #: 30

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