RE: Ground Combat

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Ground Combat

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: Ground Combat

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Ground Combat - 4/27/2005 3:30:43 PM

BraveHome

Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

Shouldn't be too difficult to dump that line out to the combatreport.txt file as well as the screen. Wonder if we'll see it in the next patch?

i may be naive, but i would think it to be extremely easy...

top five things i could be doing if i didn't have to watch the combat replays:
5) flossing my teeth...bloody gums are the scourge of geek wargamers
4) read my stack of aging magazines...missing the swimsuit issue to watch combat replays should be a crime
3) tend to the honey-do list...ok, maybe this one isn't so bad
2) finish ripping my CD collection to hard drive...gawd, it'll never get done
1) and number one, read all the posts about how crappy the ground combat system is in WitP (*flurry of fanfare from Paul's Latenight Band*)

As I'm currently writing this (along with my new Cockney translation of Voina Y Mir) while my 29 units in Changsha attack 30 units, I am totally in touch with #1!!

But as for #3, you're tired, m'boy, get some sleep; though necessary, the HDL is never good....

< Message edited by BraveHome -- 4/27/2005 3:37:48 PM >

(in reply to Kwik E Mart)

Post #: 31

Example of Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 4:27:57 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

Here is an example of multi-day ground combat that may serve to illustrate some of the points discussed above.

May 23, 1942 -- With considerable help (and sacrifice) from IJN, IJA has taken Trincomalee, and has advanced to Colombo.
Probing attacks by the IJA 4th and 21st Divisions, plus attached armor, engineers and artillery have determined that a
considerable Commonwealth force, consisting of the 18th UK Division, plus elements of the 2nd UK Division and
the 44th and 45th Indian Brigades, is defending.

There is also an IJA Army HQ as well as the two Base Force units you see in the combat animation; these are there to provide
support squads, which will help the combat units recover disruption and fatigue each turn.

quote:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/23/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Colombo , at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
G4M1 Betty x 26
Ki-27 Nate x 5
Ki-21 Sally x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 9 damaged

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 22

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
14 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 96415 troops, 660 guns, 152 vehicles

Defending force 18216 troops, 155 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 4

Japanese ground losses:
705 casualties reported
Guns lost 29

Allied ground losses:
646 casualties reported
Guns lost 22

This doesn't really tell you all that you need to know. If you had watched the
entire ground combat animation for the IJ deliberate assault at Colombo, you
would have gleaned the following additional information:

Japanese max assault: 1726 ~ Adjusted assault: 1403
Allied max defense: 160 ~ Adjusted defense: 1165

This tells you that although you have a preponderance of raw force to the tune of
more than 5 to 1, the Allied player posesses defensive advantages that largely
negate your numerical superiority. For example, you are prepped to about 50% for
Colombo; you have to assume that the defender will be at 100%. You have just marched
120 miles, while the allied player has had several days of rest. There are 5 fort levels
at Colombo. On the other hand you can see that 18th UK/A is at 0 strength, and 18th UK/B
is at 7. This is probably the cumulative result of the earlier combat for Trincomalee, plus
your ground support air strike from this turn. His main LCU is hurting, your supply is in
the green, your 1 to 1 was solid, you took his forts down a notch, so you decide to launch
another deliberate assault next turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 5/30/2005 2:04:23 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to BraveHome)

Post #: 32

RE: Example of Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 7:25:39 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

May 24, 1942

quote:

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 95401 troops, 630 guns, 154 vehicles

Defending force 17327 troops, 132 guns, 5 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Japanese ground losses:
1069 casualties reported
Guns lost 24
Vehicles lost 4

Allied ground losses:
828 casualties reported
Guns lost 33

Again, the combat report gives you generic information (1 to 1), but the ground combat animation tells a more complete story:

Japanese max assault: 1534 ~ Adjusted assault: 1583
Allied max defense: 153 ~ Adjusted defense: 1093

Compared with the previous turn, you can see that the relative AV has shifted slightly towards IJ. This is due to: IJ having
knocked down a fort, and to IJ having suffered lighter casualties as a % of his entire force. Also IJ has two engineer
regiments on top of the stack, where the Allied force has 18th/A and 18th/B on top (the base force does not count).
The topmost LCUs will suffer the most in terms of disablements and increases in disruption and fatigue as a
result of ground combat; these are direct reductions in combat strength.

Since things are going our way, we shall conduct a further deliberate assault next turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 8/7/2005 7:27:21 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 33

RE: Example of Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 7:48:08 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

May 25, 1942

quote:

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 94533 troops, 602 guns, 151 vehicles

Defending force 16273 troops, 90 guns, 5 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Japanese ground losses:
804 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
1181 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 1

Again, a generic 1-to-1. But, there is one important piece of information here, when compared with the previous day: where
yesterday IJ suffered more casualties, today the allies were hit harder.

And if you had watched the ground combat animation, you would know why:

Japanese max assault: 1410 ~ Adjusted assault: 1168
Allied max defense: 140 ~ Adjusted defense: 589

The combined effects of the losses suffered by 18/A, 18/B, and now 18/C, also at 0, together with another fort level
taken down have pushed the odds to the tipping point. This is a fat 1-to-1 (almost a 2-to-1); add in the fact that significant reinforcements (65th/B Brigade) have arrived, I'd say it is time for the coup de gras, a decisive Shock Attack (actually, a further deliberate attack would probably suffice, but I like shock attacks

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 5/30/2005 2:08:58 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 34

RE: Example of Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 7:55:15 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

May 26, 1942

quote:

Ground combat at Colombo

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 101780 troops, 694 guns, 143 vehicles

Defending force 14933 troops, 46 guns, 4 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Colombo base !!!

Japanese ground losses:
1506 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Allied ground losses:
20134 casualties reported
Guns lost 69

The shock attack doubles the attackers' AVs, after doubling the effect of the defenders' fire against them:

Japanese max assault: 3036 ~ Adjusted assault: 2929
Allied max defense: 110 ~ Adjusted defense: 304

Here are the situations of some of the IJ LCUs following the shock attack (and also following one turn
of recovering from its effects in a supply-rich environment)

5th IJA Eng Rgt (top combat LCU in the stack)
TOE: (64/82) experience/morale: (73/22) disruption/fatigue (28/60)
As the top combat unit in the stack, this unit bore the brunt of disablements
as a result of enemy defensive fire;

27th IJA Eng Rgt (second from the top)
TOE: (78/98) experience/morale: (67/59) disruption/fatigue (27/54)

21st Division (third from the top)
TOE: (79/99) experience/morale: (99/60) disruption/fatigue (81/48)
As the topmost division in the stack, this unit did most of the heavy fighting.
They did not get to 99 experience just in this battle, they are veterans of Singapore and Trincomalee

4th Division/C (bottom unit in the stack)
TOE: (**/**) experience/morale: (98/51) disruption/fatigue (20/37)
TOE is meaningless as this unit was hit by the expanding LCU bug.
As the bottom LCU in the stack, this unit contributed fully to combat, but came off rather lightly in
disruption and fatigue. Stacking order matters.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 5/30/2005 2:11:04 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 35

RE: Example of Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 3:07:12 PM

BraveHome

Posts: 523
Joined: 11/9/2004
From: Tulsa, OK
Status: offline

Excellent illustrations of the proper way to assault!

Also, a validation of our desire to see the AAV's in the summary screen, not just the animation text at end of combat. Too vital to miss!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 36

RE: Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 4:48:56 PM

JReb

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline

What about the weather? I usually don't attack or even march in burma, if heavy precip is falling. Does weather add to fatifue and disruption?

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to AmiralLaurent)

Post #: 37

RE: Ground Combat - 5/17/2005 5:27:59 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

I have not noticed that weather has any effect whatsoever on LCUs, ground movement, or ground combat.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to JReb)

Post #: 38

RE: Ground Combat - 5/26/2005 5:23:22 AM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

Thanks for this, Irrelevant! Very helpful.

One slightly off-topic question: did 1.5 change anything relating to withdrawal from a contested hex? If the two sides are slogging it out, neither one forcing the other to retreat, can one side withdraw if the other side continues to attack or bombard? Or does any attack/bombardment still "cancel" the withdrawing unit's orders?

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 39

RE: Ground Combat - 5/26/2005 6:14:37 AM

qgaliana

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline

Very limited experiments with this, but my withdrawing units so far have continued marching even under fire (v1.5). At least under bombardments - didn't check to see if the march count reset under other attacks but I don't think they did.

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 40

RE: Ground Combat - 6/8/2005 9:36:41 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

Great stuff!!!
It is fall '43 in my game against the Jap AI. I have taken Myitkyina to re-open the Burma road (and sent too much back towards Imphala and Ledo along with the Chinese back across the border) when the AI sent 3 Divisions, 2 Tank Brigades, and an Engineer Regiment to take it back. Fortunately, I was able to reverse some of my forces and transport some from both Ledo and Dacca in to keep it until help arrived. The original force of Japanese is in the clear hex between Myitkyina and Lashio (when I took the base). I have a large force coming from Dacca on the road Mandalay. My question is, What do I need to do in order to ensure total annihilation of that force at Myitkyina?? When I took it initially I had at least one Brigade on the 3 roads/paths lead into Myitkyina. Thus the retreat into the clear hex.

(in reply to BraveHome)

Post #: 41

RE: Ground Combat - 6/8/2005 10:49:18 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

That's not a clear hex; it is a mountain hex.

If you have Lashio and Mandalay, I seriously doubt whether this IJ force can ever get away. Assuming that you forced it to retreat from Myitkyina, it undoubtedly is in bad shape. Lots of disablements, high disruption and fatigue, low morale. When you retreated them they lost all their supply. Possibly they can draw supply to where they are now, but probably not. Use the "w" hot key to display the ZOCs; you may have this force cut off from supply. Supply is the key here; if this enemy force can get back in supply, it may be able to save itself. If you can prevent this from happening, it will certainly die. I wouldn't think in terms of going into the mountains there to do battle, I would rather think in terms of cutting it off. Take Pagan and Taung Gyi, and then Rangoon. Keep the rest of the bases garrisoned. That will seal their fate.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 42

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 7:18:00 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

quote:

The three most important things (unless you have enough juice to get the 2-to-1 on the first attack): support, supply and preparation points.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'd like to add a fourth item to this list:

Always divide your divisions and brigades. This moves them to the bottom of the stack. Then seek out LCUs that will stack above your engineer and armored regiments, which will now appear at the top of the stack. Be sure to assign effective leaders to the infantry regiments that result from dividing; the game defaults to bozos.

This also provides multiple targets for enemy ground support airstrikes, thus diluting their effect.

This has no basis in reality that I can think of, other than the fact that a division did not operate tactically as a division. A division operated tactically as three regiments. But regardless, this is playing the game. I don't complain. I've been playing games my whole life; I love playing games. If not this, then what? Backgammon, I suppose. Talk about abstract!

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 7/3/2005 7:23:16 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 43

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 6:01:39 PM

SgtSwanson

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Long Branch, NJ
Status: offline

Ok, so let me get this straight,

1) Turn on the animations as you get more info for planning the next days combat if your not using it now.

2) Breakdown your bigger Inf units (Divs./Brigades) so it will rearrange your stack and put units that have less disruption on top.

3) Have Base force and or Eng units involved to help keep the disruption down if combat is going to take a long time.

Sounds weired to me that you can use Base Force units for offensive combat. I always thought you couldn't / shouldn't do that as they were for running bases.

_____________________________

Sgt Swanson
87-93 5/502 Inf. Berlin Bde
93-95 2/502 Inf. 101st Airborne Div.
Freedom is never free!!

Patch of the Week: 6th Infantry Division

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 44

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 6:02:50 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

I think frequent dividing of ground combat units tends to create bugs. (leader bugs recombine bugs) Not sure if all have been corrected. It has unclear effects on replacements, disruption, fatigue, and morale recovery. Are split units more or less effective in combat?? Who knows. Plus it makes the game a bit more tedious as you have three times the units to click on and give orders.

I never split units unless there is a clear tactical reason for doing so.

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 45

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 6:08:51 PM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

quote:

Sounds weired to me that you can use Base Force units for offensive combat. I always thought you couldn't / shouldn't do that as they were for running bases.

They aren't participating in combat, they are support troops in the rear with the gear, doing laundry and cooking and such.

quote:

I think frequent dividing of ground combat units tends to create bugs. (leader bugs recombine bugs) Not sure if all have been corrected. It has unclear effects on replacements, disruption, fatigue, and morale recovery. Are split units more or less effective in combat?? Who knows. Plus it makes the game a bit more tedious as you have three times the units to click on and give orders.

After breaking them down I just leave them. They are equally effective as the combined unit is. And what's a few more clicks in this game....?

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 7/3/2005 6:13:05 PM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to SgtSwanson)

Post #: 46

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 8:07:11 PM

moses

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline

I have less confidance than you in doing things which probably were not ever expected to be done in testing. I know for a while people were dividing air units because they would repair and take on replacements faster that way. This was fixed in some patch but I would not be surprised if there are similar unintended effects of dividing ground units. Especially if you are doing it en-mass.

If you really want to mess with the system start air transporting some of the divided units so you have fragments of divided units in various places. Maybe use a fragment of a divided unit as the lead unit of a follow command. Then you can get a ghost of a fragmented divided unit. Now load the ghost on to a ship......

< Message edited by moses -- 7/3/2005 8:10:09 PM >

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 47

RE: Ground Combat - 7/3/2005 11:54:42 PM

Mike Wood

Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline

Hello...

Really want to give the programmer a heart attack, eh?

A Good Laugh...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

I have less confidance than you in doing things which probably were not ever expected to be done in testing. I know for a while people were dividing air units because they would repair and take on replacements faster that way. This was fixed in some patch but I would not be surprised if there are similar unintended effects of dividing ground units. Especially if you are doing it en-mass.

If you really want to mess with the system start air transporting some of the divided units so you have fragments of divided units in various places. Maybe use a fragment of a divided unit as the lead unit of a follow command. Then you can get a ghost of a fragmented divided unit. Now load the ghost on to a ship......

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 48

RE: Ground Combat - 7/4/2005 12:04:55 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

quote:

I have less confidance than you in doing things which probably were not ever expected to be done in testing.

What do you suppose they gave us a "divide unit" button for, if not for the purpose of dividing the unit?

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to moses)

Post #: 49

RE: Ground Combat - 7/4/2005 3:14:44 AM

cookie monster

Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline

Good question

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 50

RE: Ground Combat - 7/4/2005 3:08:10 PM

michaelm75au

Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Hi

to make really big units....

Michael

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 51

RE: Ground Combat - 7/20/2005 5:42:12 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

This just occurred to me (although it is obvious in retrospect): a ground support air strike is the only way to target and to inflict meaningful losses on powerful defending LCUs that are not on top of the defending stack.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 7/20/2005 5:50:20 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 52

RE: Ground Combat - 7/20/2005 4:07:18 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

This just occurred to me (although it is obvious in retrospect): a ground support air strike is the only way to target and to inflict meaningful losses on powerful defending LCUs that are not on top of the defending stack.

Naval bombardments will generally target Eng. LCUs whether they are on top or not. Of course, the Engineering LCU that gets hammered the most is the first Engineering unit in the stack...

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 53

RE: Ground Combat - 10/2/2005 6:12:03 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

bump for the new guys

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to lordmaul13)

Post #: 54

RE: Ground Combat - 10/2/2005 1:25:24 PM

Accipiter

Posts: 120
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline

Thanks everyone. It good to know my forces aren't so incompentent as to be shooting themselves storming the beaches :) There is so much to learn about this game.

(in reply to lordmaul13)

Post #: 55

RE: Ground Combat - 11/13/2005 2:22:03 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

quote:

I like to assault when all my main assault units have recovered disruption/fatigue to 20/50 at the worst. Do not assault with LCUs with worse disruption/fatigue levels than these, except in the most urgent of circumstances.

I have to say, this was very cautious advice indeed on my part. Here is my current thinking: If you are getting 1 to 1s, and if you are also taking a fort down every turn, and if your supply is in the green, keep making daily deliberate attacks. Keep an eye on the assault values and make sure that they keep moving in your favor (and if you are taking down forts, they should). Don't worry about disablements, fatigue, or disruption, cause they are happening to the other guy too. If the modified assault values keep moving in your favor, that is all that is important. If you have a fat 1 to 1 when you get down to the last fort level or maybe two, finish it with a shock attack.

One thing to watch though is combat engineer disablements. These guys are the cutting edge, and they are the first ones to go. If they get mostly disabled, turn them off before they start to die, and continue making deliberate assaults with the rest of your force. It may pay to rotate your engineers so you always have some attacking. LCUs with organic combat engineers are very valuable.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 11/13/2005 3:47:18 AM >

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to tsimmonds)

Post #: 56

RE: Ground Combat - 11/13/2005 6:46:14 AM

testarossa

Posts: 952
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey
Supposed to be fixed in the upcoming patch. We hope.

So when 1.8 beta is scheduled to

arrive?

(in reply to Halsey)

Post #: 57

RE: Ground Combat - 11/15/2005 10:56:37 PM

Berkut

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline

Is the posting of the AV values to the combat result screen and report going to happen...ever?

(in reply to testarossa)

Post #: 58

RE: Ground Combat - 11/16/2005 10:41:23 AM

fabertong

Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline

Please may this come to pass...........waiting for the AAVs in combat replays....sometimes I drift off and miss them......and let's be frank lifes too short to wait when you have 20+ units which are bombarding, attacking........etc.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 59

RE: Ground Combat - 3/4/2006 5:27:12 AM

tsimmonds

Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline

Bump for the new guys.

Halsey, thanks for reminding me....

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to fabertong)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> RE: Ground Combat