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new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945" - 5/27/2005 5:54:50 PM   
andy11

 

Posts: 13
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www.microgeo.pl

(in polish)
http://www.gry-online.pl/S013.asp?ID=19839
http://gry.o2.pl/zapowiedzi/?co=pokaz&id=368
Post #: 1
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/28/2005 12:50:13 AM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: andy11
Did you see this?

www.microgeo.pl


Registered myself months ago at their website - never got an email with an update ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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Post #: 2
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/28/2005 3:24:55 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		SOme people over at Warfare HQ sent an email and got a reply next day.

Price supposed to be $35.

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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/28/2005 10:29:37 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Heh the map reminds me of "Empire Deluxe", but, watching the little movies one can see the abundance of detail to the battles. Clearly looks much simplier and more fun to play than WitP to me. I'll probably get this one.

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Post #: 4
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 2:20:31 AM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		yes I have seen it....and the lovely 1990 Graphics too :)

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Post #: 5
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 2:27:54 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Laugh all you want. From what I see, this game is a simple, straightforward attempt at doing what WitP tried to do: create a fun, interesting, historically-based simulation of WWII in the Pacific. I enjoyed the two "movie" presentations (and, for the edification of someone who criticized this game as not realizing that Coral Sea was the first carrier battle of the war, the first movie presents Coral Sea, not Midway). If it has a full campaign scenario (instead of individual battles like Carriers at War and Carrier Strike), and it continues to look interesting, I will buy this game.

My WitP days are very numbered anyway, considering how fooked oop it continues to be.

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Post #: 6
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:05:32 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		With such indepth gaems as WiTP or always going to have problems, some very big ones even.

I know many love it but for me where is the fun at?

This on the other hand looks fun to play, only time will tell how good or bad it is.



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Post #: 7
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:10:26 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		And what'll you do if it fails to live up to your expectations? It's unlikely that the people behind it have access to any black magic that will conjure up the mythical PERFECT Pacific War game. And then you'd be stuck with those, shall we say, rudimentary graphics.

Back in the old days, I had a very high tolerance for primitive graphics. As I've gotten older, this has gradually faded away...

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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:19:52 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And what'll you do if it fails to live up to your expectations? It's unlikely that the people behind it have access to any black magic that will conjure up the mythical PERFECT Pacific War game. And then you'd be stuck with those, shall we say, rudimentary graphics.

Back in the old days, I had a very high tolerance for primitive graphics. As I've gotten older, this has gradually faded away...

If it costs $35 and fails to live up to my expectations, I'll be less than half as disappointed as I have been with WitP. I'm not interested in perfection. I want a game I can play that at least keeps the leaders on the correct side of the war. As for graphics, if they are for "gee whiz" effect, there is no such thing on a CDT. Function always comes before style for me.

How truncated your view of time is. "The old days" to which you refer are only a few years ago. I have seen nothing in the way of breakthroughs that have negated the simple pleasure of seeing military units displayed in a utilitarian way intended to help me understand and play the game rather than make me sit back in my chair and say, "Gee, whiz, that's even more beautiful than my mistress's tushie."

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Post #: 9
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:22:10 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Actually, I count the "good old days" as 10-15 years ago. I'm not as much of a young whippersnapper as you seem to think...

AND I play WitP with the animations turned off. So nyah to you, sirrah!


< Message edited by Terminus -- 5/29/2005 3:24:57 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:27:19 AM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

With such indepth gaems as WiTP or always going to have problems, some very big ones even.

I know many love it but for me where is the fun at?

This on the other hand looks fun to play, only time will tell how good or bad it is.




Where is the fun of witp?

Oh man... playing that pbem is a great time. The suspense of wondering whether or not your defense on an island will withstand an assault or whether or not your carrier group will wipe out the enemy's carriers.

I haven't had such tense and thoroughly enjoyable moments since cc1 like I've had in UV/WiTP.

WiTP does have some parts that are a pain the arse, such as getting operations and/or bases established with the attendant needs such as finding and shipping engineer units/fuel/supplies etc. However, the overall gameplay is, imo, a lot of fun pbem.

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Post #: 11
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 6:45:58 AM   
pasternakski


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Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
So nyah to you, sirrah!


Man, you Danes curse weird.

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So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 12
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 6:49:58 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
WiTP does have some parts that are a pain the arse, such as getting operations and/or bases established with the attendant needs such as finding and shipping engineer units/fuel/supplies etc.

These are the best parts of the game. This should have been the basis for the game. Everybody wanted an editor, and mods, and tactical control, and "I want my this" and "I want my that" and ...

Now we've got what we've got. An unintelligible, directionless, permanently garbled mess.

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And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 13
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 9:32:19 AM   
Reiryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
WiTP does have some parts that are a pain the arse, such as getting operations and/or bases established with the attendant needs such as finding and shipping engineer units/fuel/supplies etc.

These are the best parts of the game. This should have been the basis for the game. Everybody wanted an editor, and mods, and tactical control, and "I want my this" and "I want my that" and ...

Now we've got what we've got. An unintelligible, directionless, permanently garbled mess.


One man's mess is another's well placed belongings...

Many of those "I want this and that's" have made the game that much more fun for me.

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Post #: 14
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 11:35:05 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Personally I can stand the "old days" graphics, if the meat of the game is challenging and fun and not overly complex like WitP. I passed on it because of TOO MUCH detail, my gawd I can't see playing one game for a years time just to play one game out. Forget that, too many other great games out there to waste a whole year on one production that from the sounds of it has many problems still.

Even with the Empire Deluxe graphics of this new version of a War in the Pacific, the detail of the movies is enough for me to take an interest in it and shell out my $35 (half of what WitP cost by the way). I still play EMPIRE DELUXE and still enjoy the heck out of it, the Expert AI is definitely still challenging to me and that's one of the most important things to me in any game, how challenging the AI remains over the years. Graphics certainly comes in last place.

I'm also not a big fan of naval battles, still looking for the ultimate land based game besides "Rising Sun" and "Squad Battles "Pacific War" that depicts more of the ground based warfare of the Pacific War on a "tactical" level instead of operational. I found a mod for CMBO that has Pacific Theater units and I enjoy it much, just wish someone would do it for either CMBB or CMAK so I can use the updated tweaks of those two games.

Anyway this new game looks interesting and simple enough in my book for my $$, I'd rather have something I can play in a couple of days time or a week than something that takes months to a year to play, especially by PBEM. And as far as WitP graphics, I didn't see anything overly spectacular about them anyway. For 10 to 15 years later, hardly state of the art. "The Grandest Fleet" by QQP old as it is has better graphics I think. ;)

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Post #: 15
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 12:39:53 PM   
Arckon

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/19/2004
Status: offline 		You know I used to agree about graphics in turn based war games, but I honestly think we are at a stage now where much more can be done.

The Decisive Battles Series have done it, and Anglo-German War looks to have improved (though certainly not superb) graphics compared to 5+ yrs ago in its soon to be released game.

Yes gameplay, interface, and AI are the most important, but I think some are starting to cop out on the graphics because of the belief that these type of games have never had great graphics due to other areas being more important.

It is constantly being talked about how to bring in new people to what is classed as a niche genre, and improved graphics could also help do that.

For the record I still play Rising Sun, Panzer General etc.

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Post #: 16
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 1:22:41 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'm not looking for good graphics in this type of game for the "gee whiz" factor, but I do expect (and think I have a right to expect) graphics that are visually pleasing. This is 2005, for God's sake!

War Across the Pacific's graphics remind me of Carriers at War. It was a good game, and one which I was a big fan of, but it got OLD. WitP has a buttload of flaws, but bad graphics aren't one of them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Man, you Danes curse weird.


Well, I could have called your mother a hamster, and claimed that your father smelled of elderberries, before threatening to unclog my nostrils on you and make castagnets out of your testicles, but that's SO 1974.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 5/29/2005 2:42:25 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 3:01:05 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I really think graphics candy is a age factor thing. Nearly 50 here and graphics have never impressed me to buy a game. The gameplay itself has always been the influence. PRICE plays a big part also, and mainly the reason I don't own a lot of Matrixgames titles to this day.

Plus, improving graphics takes time and time is money, thus, games with improved graphics will tend to cost "more". Matrixgames are a prime example of that, just look at the cost of some of their more recent titles. When it comes to more of a board game to computer type of game, nope, graphics aren't important. Now, games like Medieval Total War and Combat Mission and perhaps SPWAW those are a different story and a different type of game. I would expect better graphics in them because they are not board game to computer type games. They are more "action oriented" with minature figures, thus graphics adds more to the immersion value, but, a board game to computer type game, nah, graphics have nothing to do with immersion, it's a strategy game pure then, just counters and hexes and enough color to tell the difference between the sides and the terrain is all I need. AGW is certainly going to give more than required in the graphics department I can already see that and for $29.99 also. ;)

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Post #: 18
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 5:17:09 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Plus, improving graphics takes time and time is money, thus, games with improved graphics will tend to cost "more". Matrixgames are a prime example of that, just look at the cost of some of their more recent titles.


Right, like Tin Soldiers: Julius Caesar $29.99, Gates of Troy $19.99, GGWaW $39.99, Supremacy $34.99, Flashpoint Germany $34.99, Starshatter $29.99 . I realize there are a few titles with higher prices in our catalog, for good reason, and some prices have come down over time, but the great majority of our titles are currently priced at or below market/competitor prices.

You're right that graphics take time and money, but the majority of the development cost for historical wargames at least is not in the graphics. One of the reasons other genres have more time to spend on graphics and effects, in many cases, is because everything else is fictional. Researching, designing and coding historical accuracy combined with playability represents the majority of a wargame's cost, together with creating an AI that will play a reasonably challenging yet historically believable game against you.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 19
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 7:00:46 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Plus, improving graphics takes time and time is money, thus, games with improved graphics will tend to cost "more". Matrixgames are a prime example of that, just look at the cost of some of their more recent titles.


If that would be true the me personally would be a rich man. Care to provide proof for your broad statement?


ps.: If it were for me and I had the budget our games would look way better. You don´t want to know the ammount of compromises I have to deal with.

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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 7:22:32 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		At least you have your priorities right.

I tried the demo for American Civil War: Gettysburg. Whoever wrote the graphics engine for that should win an award, it looks fabulous, but unfortunately his colleagues seem to have forgotten to add a game to it.

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Post #: 21
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/29/2005 7:31:46 PM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Another thing I suppose game developers have to think about from a graphics standpoint is that if the historical accuracy and good gameplay are present and the art files are accessible, then game aficionados out there will start modding and refining them to their heart's content and share them with the game community. Sometimes the results can be rather mixed but I've seen that a lot with some Matrix titles and the HPS/Tiller games.

However good graphics & box art up front have always gone a long way in selling a game since you usually can't test things like playability and accuracy and the quality of the AI before you buy.

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Post #: 22
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 3:05:00 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

If that would be true the me personally would be a rich man. Care to provide proof for your broad statement?


I guess you guys problem Marc is you're trying to "keep up with the Jones of the mainstream gaming industy" and with a niche market like wargaming, that's where you put too much into graphics, waste resources, when you could just put out mediocre graphics, open that part of the game up to modding and let the modders create the better graphics for the games at no cost to you. HPS does this rather nicely. For those that want them there's already some graphics updates by modders to some of their games.

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.
But, if you want to pretty them up for $29.99, well then of course I have no issues with that. ;)

Now, Tin Soldiers series, since it is depicting a minatures type of game and not a hexed based/counter based type wargame, well certainly I can see graphics time being taken on a game series like that, but, every single game with fluff just isn't necessary in my book.

But, of course it's you guys company, I'm sure you will do as you think and not as I think. ;)

I believe the CMX2 series has the right idea and setup for their next edition of the series. One model that many different types of wargames can be produced from within 6 to 8 months. Pretty good idea.

Cut the graphics and you can cut your budget, release the graphics artists, well most of them, you're one aren't you? hehe Let them go back to painting seashells by the seashore like the old artists used to. lol

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Post #: 23
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 3:53:27 AM   
rhondabrwn


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From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.


Perhaps your point may be true for the hard core gamers who frequent discussion boards like this one, but I hardly think that your point is valid for the general gaming population. Graphics do matter to a lot of us. Not that I won't buy a great game with dated grahics, but only if I've read a lot of very favorable reviews about it (and probably after considerable thought). I initially dismissed UV and WiTP when I discovered Matrix because of the graphics. I bought it only after reading reports of the richness of the game play, the depth and complexity, and various AAR's that got me caught up in the game. KP and BiN were easy calls because they had great reviews and looked great as well.

As to waiting for modders to do the graphics work, I have to believe that only a minority of game owners go to the trouble of modding their games and that isn't a universal panacea for the general gaming public - only for the dedicated few who haunt the forums and seem to spend all of their waking hours on gaming.

In rememberance of the late, great Redmond Simonsen, I would like to acknowledge that he set the standards for gaming graphics back at SPI in the 70's and 80's. He felt that graphics, first and foremost, had to support the game mechanics. We should never lose sight of that priority and he resisted the impulses to hype the graphics just for appearance's sake. One notable example was his insistence on matte finish counters when many wanted the glossy Avalon Hill style. Redmond correctly assessed that glossy counters resulted in a reflection that hindered readability and that inks tended to smear on glossy counters. SPI took a lot of heat from the crowd who loved to caress their shiny black SS counters as they made tank noises and screamed pseudo german expressios. but Redmond always stood by his principles.

No, I wouldn't start firing the grahics department quite yet!

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Post #: 24
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 4:18:52 AM   
Panzeh

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline 		A box with the unit's abbreviation is good enough.

They are doing the KOEI-style brick system(which is the same thing as hexes), which IMO looks better than hexes, but worse than any tiled map superimposed over a nice-looking picture map.

< Message edited by Panzeh -- 5/30/2005 4:19:34 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 1:19:12 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

If that would be true the me personally would be a rich man. Care to provide proof for your broad statement?


I guess you guys problem Marc is you're trying to "keep up with the Jones of the mainstream gaming industy" and with a niche market like wargaming, that's where you put too much into graphics, waste resources, when you could just put out mediocre graphics, open that part of the game up to modding and let the modders create the better graphics for the games at no cost to you. HPS does this rather nicely. For those that want them there's already some graphics updates by modders to some of their games.

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.
But, if you want to pretty them up for $29.99, well then of course I have no issues with that. ;)


But, of course it's you guys company, I'm sure you will do as you think and not as I think. ;)


BS, if we would like to keep up with the "rest" of the industry then we would need a way bigger budget. What we do here is extremly economic. I don´t see that much publishers / developers that bring 2 games per month to the public with such a minimal artist staff. Why is this so? Because I can (have to) make compromises. I woud love to have shader technology like on latest "Splinter Cell" for some of our games. As long as the gameplay isn´t affected there´s absolutly NO reason why you shouldn´t fancy up the graphics. You know, I can´t code - I can paint, so I´m (and the other artists) not a waste of ressources since I can´t help out the coders .

If we would follow your model of "release with crap graphics and let modders "spice it up"" then you would really save money big time within half of a year. Cause only from the business we get from hardcore guys like you we can´t pay our bills.

But we have allready discussed this so many times on this very board. I don´t need another discussion on this and why good graphics (at least at some quality standard) are essential for sales. Buy the product or not, it´s absolutly your descission as customer.


My questions still stands. How about proof for your statement, that better graphics made our games more expensive?

< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 5/30/2005 1:20:03 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 1:26:44 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Just FYI, on the DB series from SSG there´s one single artist, Steve Ford, doing all the work for the gamegraphics. I can´t imagine how to cut this down even more.

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Post #: 27
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 1:41:30 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Just FYI, on the DB series from SSG there´s one single artist, Steve Ford, doing all the work for the gamegraphics. I can´t imagine how to cut this down even more.


Make him sit and work in a closed dumpster; no expenses for electric lights and air conditioning.

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Post #: 28
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 1:57:13 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		For those who say graphics don't matter, here is Raging Tiger by Shrapnel Games.

There is a demo and the game-play is apparrantly OK but the graphics are so poor I could not be bothered with the demo.


Be thankfull for nice graphics.







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Post #: 29
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 1:59:28 PM   
Arckon

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/19/2004
Status: offline 		Geez, sorry Marc,
must admit haven't seen this discussion on the board before, and my previous comment was directed at growing the market generally.

Again sorry though.

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Post #: 30
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