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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945"

 
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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/30/2005 7:39:22 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Joe 98,

I have to admit that tht particular series of games looks so bad I dont know how anyone can sit through it.

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Post #: 31
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 4:45:07 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

My questions still stands. How about proof for your statement, that better graphics made our games more expensive?


I still stick to "time to produce and code graphics" increase the cost of the game, they have to pay somebody to do those graphics, if they don't have to pay them, cost is less, less cost means more income. I'm not buying "artistry" when I buy a wargame. I'm buying a "game" not a picture to hang on my wall. One thing you can't prove, nor I, is that if you just put mediocre graphics for games such as KP, BIN, BII etc. that you wouldn't sell as many games as you already have. I personally don't think the KIDDIES or the mainstream customers are buying your products anyway. One has to be a wargamer or pretty interested in the genre to purchase these types of games in the first place. And even when I was just 12 years old, it wasn't the graphics that I bought the games for it was the "imagination" of being the commander of the scenario or battles.

We can take for example a game like Civil War:Battle for Bull Run, there's really nothing spectacular there in the graphics department, but, it has some qualities of the Total War series in detail, yet, $19.99 for that game. So, if graphics time isn't costing you guys any money, then why are your games so expensive compared to others of like kind eh? AGW coming soon, has equally as good graphics as your SSG titles, yet, $29.99 for three theaters of operation, not just one at a time at $50 a pop. HPS titles $29.99, just amazes me all these other sources of wargames can sell them so reasonably and Matrixgames has this "richness" in pricing in most of their newest releases. $80 for WitP is rediculous to me. So you're telling me the coding alone for just the gameplay is worth $80? Did it have 6 million lines of code like Rome Total War did that sold for $24.95?? I will admit you have some "reasonbably" priced games. The Tin Soldiers series and of course Slitherines series of titles. But, what I would call your "mainstream" titles are much too much to the extreme in pricing compared to other like games from other sources as HPS and now Madminute games.

So you tell me what constitutes your higher prices for your mainstream games vs these other computer wargame outlet sources?


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Post #: 32
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 5:22:30 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Joe 98,

I have to admit that tht particular series of games looks so bad I dont know how anyone can sit through it.


It's a good thing the graphic was labeled AMMO DUMP as I thought I was looking at an open spiral notebook......

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Post #: 33
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 9:27:08 AM   
Arckon

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 12/19/2004
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quote:

Ravinhood said,

HPS titles $29.99, just amazes me all these other sources of wargames can sell them so reasonably


HPS sells there titles from there shop for $39.95 intro offer 1st mnth aprox on release and then goes up to normal price of $49.99.

I mentioned AGW because I think that is the increase in graphics on release of a new product to help grow the genre to newer customers. I'm not suggesting the very latest 'my god look at that' type graphics increase. I still play plenty of old turn based wargames with old graphics and does not bother me.

I believe (and can be corrected here) that AGW graphics are done by Rons wife. If such a small hobbiest team can do that why not all developers. Developers like SSG, Schwerpunkt should be applauded for increasing the graphical presentation of such high quality playable games. Granted AGW is not out yet but am basing this on RGW that will be a quality play.

Again my comment was directed at helping to bring new players into such a niche market, and newer customers are going to be younger and they do care more about graphics.

For the record I am not much younger than you but do like to look ahead at the big picture, not just have an 'I'm alright jack' type outlook.

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Post #: 34
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 7:52:24 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Ravinhood, if been tru this a few times allready. It´s senseless, even more with those made up prices you tag. You may have the last word if you like.

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Post #: 35
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 9:11:52 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Ravinhood, if been tru this a few times allready. It´s senseless, even more with those made up prices you tag. You may have the last word if you like.



http://www.naval-warfare.net/build/store.php?path=software/shrapnel

Just goto the above site and click on the HPS SIMULATIONS tab to the left. Made up prices they are not. Every HPS title is $29.99 (So, if you're paying $49.99 for HPS games then you obviously haven't been researching the actual prices they are available).

Spartan & Gates of Troy when released were $29.99

You can also use that same weblink and find the Schwerpunkt games for $29.99

And you can also use that same weblink for Shrapnel games at the $31.99/$32.99 price range.

And two weeks after the release of RTW, it was $24.95 on ebay "shipped". I know, I have a copy, and it's not from Thailand/Taiwan, came with English manual, boxed, etc. etc. Bought it right here in the states and it was delivered within three days.

Nosir, I don't give out "madeup prices" I can backup any price I list here. If anything I do my homework before buying a game and get it at the least expensive price.

Gogamer is another source that I use, and they have 48 hour madness sales quite often with $5 to $10 savings on newly released software. Many of those titles as well during the sale are $29.99. ;)



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Post #: 36
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 5/31/2005 10:17:19 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		You compare a 3rd party retailer and Ebay price to our first party price ??? Man how screwed is that? You must compare HPS`s first party price (which is 49.95 for your standard game) to our price to make your point valid.

quote:

If anything I do my homework before buying a game and get it at the least expensive price.


You should also do your homework when you want to make points.

Other then that you still havn´t provided proof that our games got more expensive because we make the grpahics spicier.

As I sayed earlier , it´s senseless.

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Post #: 37
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 7:00:26 AM   
bradclark1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

For those who say graphics don't matter, here is Raging Tiger by Shrapnel Games.

There is a demo and the game-play is apparrantly OK but the graphics are so poor I could not be bothered with the demo.


Be thankfull for nice graphics.








Did you zoom in at all. The graphics change. Looks like you are on full zoom out.

Brad

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Post #: 38
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 8:25:45 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		How can I zoom in on a screen shot?

If you have the game, please post a screen shot.



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Post #: 39
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 12:32:51 PM   
bradclark1

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Hah, I thought you got that off their demo's.
I'll see if I can figure out how to post a screenshot.

Brad

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Post #: 40
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 12:35:16 PM   
bradclark1

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		They told me "War across the Pacific 1941-1945" is due out in Sept, Oct timeframe.

Brad

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Post #: 41
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 1:06:06 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

You compare a 3rd party retailer and Ebay price to our first party price ??? Man how screwed is that? You must compare HPS`s first party price (which is 49.95 for your standard game) to our price to make your point valid.

quote:

If anything I do my homework before buying a game and get it at the least expensive price.


You should also do your homework when you want to make points.

Other then that you still havn´t provided proof that our games got more expensive because we make the grpahics spicier.

As I sayed earlier , it´s senseless.


Marc any 10 year old with any economics sense knows "more ingredients" in a product costs more, thus the price to sell it is more. A mere lemonade stand would show that if you add "colored cups" (improved graphics) to the lemonade it costs more, thus the 5 cent lemonade without colored cups {old graphics) must now cost 10 cents with colored cups (improved graphics). Then we ask the question, does the "colored cup" really make the lemonade "taste" (gameplay) any better? That's a pretty easy answer for me to answer. No it doesn't.

Sure the lemonade without colored cups (old graphics) will be somewhat plain, but, for 1 cent I can take it home and use my own colored cups (modders graphics). ;)

And comparing 3rd party prices, where you yourselves have games onsale there as well; Click on the Matrixgames button, it's as fair as fair can be. Even your 3rd party prices are sky high on most of your newly released titles. ;) And lol I listed ONE ebay buy.., yes Marc it's senseless to argue with someone steadfast in their belief their games are worth more than any other companies out there that make computer wargames (even at 3rd party outlets) and offer nothing more than "improved graphics". Your "colored cups" sure are expensive. Get rid of the Artists. ;)

Thing is Marc, I'm not the sole one starting to notice this graphics trend in games and nothing relatively new as far as gameplay. Be different if I was just an old grog set in his ways, but, the consenus over at several other major website forums is that we are just buying the same thing over and over, buying what should be just expansions or updates "with improved graphics" at full retail prices. And the industry wonders why sales for computer games are falling off. All they have to do is open their eyes and ears and read and listen to the consumer public and they would know.

Granted your Tin Soldiers series is worth it's value, but, the price of them aren't $80 or $54.99 either. ;)

You guys want consumer feedback, well, I'm giving it to you. I haven't once knocked the gameplay of any of your games. But, your prices on several of your more recently released titles are outlandish compared to the pricing of other computer wargames that are available. I can buy nearly 3 HPS titles compared to WitP, now, which do you think I'm going to purchase?

My thinking of why your prices are so high, you've "incorporated", while "independent" games are relatively cheaper like HPS, Sharpnel and Schwerpunkt. And then of course there are the free titles like Peoples Tactics, or the online games of The Perfect General series and Empire, both a mere $25. ;) And then this game this dicussion is about, while it has dated graphics, the price isn't too unreasonable and the gameplay appears challenging enough, if anything it certainly has quite a bit of detail. I'll probably buy it. ;)

And you still never answered my question. Why is WitP so expensive? What is in it that makes it sooooo much more expensive than many other titles on the market today with millions of lines of code? eh?

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Post #: 42
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 3:25:54 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Then we ask the question, does the "colored cup" really make the lemonade "taste" (gameplay) any better? That's a pretty easy answer for me to answer. No it doesn't.


Yes and any 5 year old with at least a subtle understanding of economics and marketing knows that a nicely decorated plate with a tasty looking steak, baked potatoe and crispy fries (nice grpahics) sells way way better then the whole thing (cooked by the same cook with same ingredients of course; -> game design and game play) thrown in a rusty stell bucket and mixed, steak sauce on top of it. I wonder which one you would eat ( I think I know the answer, you would wait untill someone sells the rusty basket with the rotten content for 10$ on ebay )

The price 3rd party retailers sell their products for is only their descission. Maybe they think our games or worth the price they sell it for, ever considered that? Or do you think we threat them with a whiplash over the price we want in their shop?

Don´t you think that "sky high" is very exagerrated? I think you´re just pissed because WITP is 69.99 (that`s the cheapest price directly from us, not 80) and you´re such a penny pincher that you would never pay this for the product, no matter how badly you want it

quote:

I can buy nearly 3 HPS titles compared to WitP, now, which do you think I'm going to purchase?


Well, my buying descission is basically based on what I want, not how much it costs in the first line. If you buy a game just because it´s cheaper then another game, well that´s your thing. I pesonally buy games Iwant to play and that interest me.

I can tell you why WITP is 69.99, because we and the developer felt that is the best price to break even with the product, considering it´s such a hardcore game that is only for the really extreme wargamers. Please spare me the "lower price = more sales" argument, it doesn´t work. The price tag is not only a matter of how many code lines you have.

quote:

Thing is Marc, I'm not the sole one starting to notice this graphics trend in games and nothing relatively new as far as gameplay.


I would agree with you if you were not using this as an argument directed at us. Or do you think our games are nothing but graphic makeovers with no new gameplay?
Yes, I know that there are a lot of publisher and game generese out there that this complaint fits too. I don´t think it necessarily fits us.

If you only started to notice this you´re pretty late here.

quote:


My thinking of why your prices are so high, you've "incorporated", while "independent" games are relatively cheaper like HPS, Sharpnel and Schwerpunkt.


Ah yes, I was only waiting for this. You´re right , since at least a year I have to wear a suit while working . What makes you think that "incoporated" makes our games more expensive then "independent" ones? I allwasy thought we´re independent too.

quote:

yes Marc it's senseless to argue with someone steadfast in their belief


Yep, ditto.

quote:

But, your prices on several of your more recently released titles are outlandish


Come on, name the recent releases with "outlandish" prices.


< Message edited by Marc Schwanebeck -- 6/1/2005 3:34:24 PM >

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Post #: 43
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 4:44:44 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		I will stay on WitP no matter what to answer the original question. those 'other' games look simply ugly and have the charme of C64 games of the early 80's. ( Yep, those C64 games in the late 80's looked better ! )

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Post #: 44
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 10:04:18 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

Yes and any 5 year old with at least a subtle understanding of economics and marketing knows that a nicely decorated plate with a tasty looking steak, baked potatoe and crispy fries (nice grpahics) sells way way better then the whole thing (cooked by the same cook with same ingredients of course; -> game design and game play) thrown in a rusty stell bucket and mixed, steak sauce on top of it.


Heh, thing is a 5 year old doesn't have any money to decide in the first place. It's the paying ADULTS that will determine what's set in front of that youth. There's many a 5 year old out there eating that rusty steel bucket of mixed steak and steak sause though. lol It's called Spaghetti-O's.

When a 5 year old sees his/her birthday cake, what excites them more, the cake (gameplay) or the candles (graphics)? ;) There's a poll I'd like to see the outcome of.

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Post #: 45
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/1/2005 11:50:16 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

When a 5 year old sees his/her birthday cake, what excites them more, the cake (gameplay) or the candles (graphics)? ;) There's a poll I'd like to see the outcome of.


You should know that 5 year old kiddies are in the first line excited by the candles. They why they put there fingers into it . That cake comes after the candles

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Post #: 46
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 12:19:23 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
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quote:

You should know that 5 year old kiddies are in the first line excited by the candles. They why they put there fingers into it . That cake comes after the candles


Ahhh, but, then do they come back for more candles or more CAKE? ;) Them candles are pretty tasteless. hehe

I think that's a good example of games nowadays, while the candles are exciting at first glance, once those 5 year olds sink their teeth into the cake, the candles are soon forgotten. (Except by mom who quickly recovers them to use again next year. lol)

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Post #: 47
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 12:48:28 AM   
Blum

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know your market and what you mean by 3rd party, but if you can buy same product for half the price, you"re a fool to buy it at full price.
how can one feel when buying something twice the price for exactly the same thing ?

However, you're the decision maker and i suppose you made the well known study of comparing estimated revenues (nr of copies sold* price) at levels like 70 or 40.
so, i suppose in the end, you don't feel price will have a real impact on quantities.
I think the worst would be that i find WITP after buying it for a lot less elsewhere. That your price drops with the nr of copies sold, i find it normal, but having 2 different prices for same thing upsets me.

Final revenues are what count. just sell at your price and see how market reacts. make enough money to stay afloat and develop games.

BTW how many copies of a good game can be sold ?
i bought between 5 and 10 PC games in my life and 20-30 cartonboard game.
does it make me a dwarf as a potential client ? or a normal one ?

Leon

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Post #: 48
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 3:22:10 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
......nothing relatively new as far as gameplay.



I disagree here. UV, BiN, HTTR, Close Combat - all are different to what’s been done before. They have taken advantage of computing to make wargaming better.



quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
the consenus .......... is that we are just buying the same thing over and over



That’s because you choose to. There are the same people who want the old board games converted to computer without taking advantage of computing power – and so you get the same thing over and over.......


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I haven't once knocked the game play of any of your games.



How about “nothing new as far as gameplay”!


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
But, your prices on several of your more recently released titles are outlandish compared to the pricing of other computer wargames that are available.



That’s because those games have are really nothing more than board games converted to computer – with much less computer code....



quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I can buy nearly 3 HPS titles compared to WitP, now, which do you think I'm going to purchase?



HPS games fail to provide information in an easily accessible way – they fail to take advantage of computer power – WitP is clearly a superior computer wargame.



quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
What is in it that makes WitP much more expensive than many other titles on the market today with millions of lines of code? eh?



Well it can’t be the artwork. I suspect much was copied from UV with perhaps some touch up. That would have been my approach.


-





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Post #: 49
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 1:07:53 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blum

I don't know your market and what you mean by 3rd party, but if you can buy same product for half the price, you"re a fool to buy it at full price.
how can one feel when buying something twice the price for exactly the same thing ?

Leon


The "3rd Party" is an independet retailer, like for example Wallmart, or to speak in smaller terms your favourite hobby / game shop etc. The prices they sell our products for are in their hands. We have no real influence on them. If they feel they can seel the games for half and still make a profit to run their shop then that´s absolutely okay.


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RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 2:00:40 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		At any rate Mark, what do you think of this upcoming game War across the Pacific with it's dated graphics? Will it be a flop because of the graphics? ;) And second question, how much of a game should be judged by the graphics? I enjoy the heck out of Civilization II, and it hardly has state of the art graphics. The "talking council" is one of the best features I like about it. Especially the luxury guy. lol And Spartan/Gates of Troy certainly doesn't have the flair in graphics say to the likes of a RTW, but, it certainly has much more in gameplay, challenge and entertainment, the market to buy/sell/trade goods is one of its greatest features and with over 50 diplomatic options that doesn't make it too shabby either.

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Post #: 51
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 7:56:45 PM   
bradclark1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

How can I zoom in on a screen shot?

If you have the game, please post a screen shot.




Here's the link for the screenshots http://www.shrapnelgames.com/prosim/Raging_Tiger/3.htm
This series isn't for everybody but I kinda like it. I have ATF and Korea.
They are real time but you can stop at anytime to issue orders etc.
Just give the demo a shot.

Brad

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Post #: 52
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/2/2005 9:57:03 PM   
Blum

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline 		thx.
I don't want to be a pain in the ass, but if 3rd party sells your product at half your selling price and makes a benefit out of it, it's because you sell to them at 1/" of your selling price. do you do that ?
So, why would you do that in the first place, when i am willing to buy at full price ?
I know some brands do that (i heard of Whirlpool and was it Phillips selling the same products through differnet channels, one in black and one in white, at different selling prices ...). i would have thought you can maximize your profit by selling to final customer at lower price than through distribution channels, since they have to make an extra margin on your own.
best regards
leon

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Post #: 53
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 12:44:22 AM   
Warfare1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I enjoy the heck out of Civilization II, and it hardly has state of the art graphics. The "talking council" is one of the best features I like about it. Especially the luxury guy. lol


You can get lots of new graphics for Civ2, thanks to artists and modders. New terrain, city and unit graphics make it look like a "newer" game...

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Post #: 54
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 3:45:25 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2899
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From: South Bend, In
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quote:

You compare a 3rd party retailer and Ebay price to our first party price ??? Man how screwed is that? You must compare HPS`s first party price (which is 49.95 for your standard game) to our price to make your point valid


I usually don't disagree with you Marc, but this is one of those times. To the consumer, it;s not about 1st or 3rd party pricing. It's about true market value. If I followed your logic here, then I would expect to pay full price at the furniture store even though they mark it up 200+% only to "discount" it 50%. I'm not implying that you guys aren't asking what you consider a fair price, just that fiar market values rules in a free market society.....

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Post #: 55
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 8:58:18 AM   
ravinhood


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quote:

You can get lots of new graphics for Civ2, thanks to artists and modders. New terrain, city and unit graphics make it look like a "newer" game...


Can you give me a link Warfare1, I never knew they had new modded graphics for Civ II. But, heh, I never was one for having to have major graphics in the first place, so probably why I never checked for them. But, if you give me a link I'll check em out.;)

That's another thing about CIV II also, it came with oodles of scenarios and then they came out with that scenario mod pak I got it also. Must be 100's of scenarios to play and a very very very great price for the package deal.

While I was downloading the CMETO for CMAK (that's Combat Mission European Theater of Operations for those that don't know), I played sort of a quickie game of Civilization and got spanked by the AI. You get in an early war in it and it's practically impossible to catch up with the technology race. Rome decided they wanted a part of me, then they got the Ottomans and Russia and Iroquois to join, I was in a 1000 year war after that. lol While I lost the game, I crushed the romans anyways. Sorry no good fer nothing #$(#* lol.

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Post #: 56
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 9:28:40 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

You compare a 3rd party retailer and Ebay price to our first party price ??? Man how screwed is that? You must compare HPS`s first party price (which is 49.95 for your standard game) to our price to make your point valid


I usually don't disagree with you Marc, but this is one of those times. To the consumer, it;s not about 1st or 3rd party pricing. It's about true market value. If I followed your logic here, then I would expect to pay full price at the furniture store even though they mark it up 200+% only to "discount" it 50%. I'm not implying that you guys aren't asking what you consider a fair price, just that fiar market values rules in a free market society.....


No you missundertood me. It´s not about "fair" price or the consumers right to buy wherever it´s cheapest. I don´t argue that, why should I?

It was merely about the fact that ravinhood quoted a 3rd party price from an online retailer and compared it to our 1st party price. To make the point that HPS games are generally way cheaper then ours (leading to his second point, that we must think our games are more "worthy"). He should have compared the HPS first party price to our first party price. That was my only complaint in this regard.

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Marc von Martial
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(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 57
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 9:38:30 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

At any rate Mark, what do you think of this upcoming game War across the Pacific with it's dated graphics? Will it be a flop because of the graphics? ;) And second question, how much of a game should be judged by the graphics? I enjoy the heck out of Civilization II, and it hardly has state of the art graphics. The "talking council" is one of the best features I like about it. Especially the luxury guy. lol And Spartan/Gates of Troy certainly doesn't have the flair in graphics say to the likes of a RTW, but, it certainly has much more in gameplay, challenge and entertainment, the market to buy/sell/trade goods is one of its greatest features and with over 50 diplomatic options that doesn't make it too shabby either.


I think the grpahics are pretty dated, but that doesn´t mean it has to be a flop (well, by general industry terms/standards any wargame must be a flop, copies sold wise). It won´t sell to a broader audience, that´s for sure, and it will have a hard time to get an 80+ score. The graphics remind me of the old SSI (?) Gualdalcanal game. Anyway. it´s really no big deal to spice grpahics like these up with only few dedication. And no, it does not eat much ressources , I simply suspect that the coders can´t code or use a better graphics engine (the grpahics seem to be limited to mid 90s graphic restrictions, 8bit, one single indexed color pallete for all graphics etc.) or that the artists are limited in their skills.

I also enjoy old titles stille, like X-Com, Civ II definetly, some others. Hek I even still play some C-64 games. But the grpahics of all of them compared to todays standards are, sorry, crap. It´s for nostalgia reasons I still play them. I wouldn´t necessarily say that the gameplay of them would blow you out of the water if they were released today. Don´t underestimate the "the game was soooooo cool back then" factor. Interesting that the last page comments by Whitta in the curent PC Gamer issue tackle exactly the same thing

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Marc von Martial
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(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 58
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 5:12:42 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Interesting that the last page comments by Whitta in the curent PC Gamer issue tackle exactly the same thing


Thing is PC Gamer is a kids magazine, I stopped taking a subscription long ago when I started noticing the immature comments and just plain silliness out of the reviewers heads. I only kept the subscription as long as I did because of Trotters column and nothing else really.

We're back to that candles and cake discussion again. Candles are kewl and all, but, they don't add "flavor" to the cake and it's the cake that is remembered most, not the candles. ;)

I too still have all my Commodore 64, Amiga 500, 486sx25 an on up to the present PC games and titles. I play them again not for nostalgia though. I play them for the gameplay and fun that they are. Even with all the great graphics of today, I still find ULTIMA IV the best rpg ever made. It had depth no other game has achieved since to me. And it just a mere commodore 64 title with 2 to 5 mb of code. lol 2 to 5 mb better than 2 to 5 gigabytes of many games today. I still enjoy even the music of it vs the music and sound in many games today. So, no, not always nostalgia, pure fun and gameplay still are in many of those old titles of the 80's.

I don't know how old you are Marc, but, I think the day will come when you too will look around and see and say, man, all these games are the same, there's nothing really new here but the graphics, why should I just keep paying for graphics updates to the same game? Then again heh, you may never feel that way, but, that's why we are unique and it's the way I feel about them today. ;)

Also Marc, if you look on that 3rd party website again you will see Matrixgames titles compared to HPS titles, you just "assumed" I was comparing your direct site to HPS's site, which I was not, I was comparing "available prices alone" what is available to the customer out there if they search for it. For obvious reason NWS must sell your games practically at the same price you sell them, the obvious reason is you don't give them any or much of a break or discount either. It sure sings of elitism to me in the pricing department of NWS for Matrixgames titles. ;)

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 59
RE: new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945&... - 6/3/2005 7:59:47 PM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline 		ravinhood:

There is no website per se that contains new default civ2 graphics. Well, a few gamers had once posted many new graphics they had done, but these were all lost in a forum crash.

I have personally taken what other artists have done and have "made" new graphics for my civ2 game. Modding is extremely easy in civ2.

For example:












Attachment (3)

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 6/3/2005 8:00:17 PM >

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 60
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