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RE: WitP going global? - 5/31/2005 9:27:51 PM   
Terminus


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And then, of course, there's the old "You kicked the table leg on purpose! Did not! Did too!". And then the scuffle ensues...

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Post #: 31
RE: WitP going global? - 5/31/2005 10:44:13 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And then, of course, there's the old "You kicked the table leg on purpose! Did not! Did too!". And then the scuffle ensues...


Jeez - you guys are really hard core! I've seen people get upset over a game, but never seen a physical fight over one.


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Post #: 32
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 12:44:05 AM   
m10bob


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Jeez - you guys are really hard core! I've seen people get upset over a game, but never seen a physical fight over one.

[/quote]


Uhhh yeah...That's why computer games were invented..Somebody decided "long-distance" gaming was safer..
That's why Al Gore invented the internet.......................


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Post #: 33
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 1:21:28 AM   
Tristanjohn


Posts: 3027
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From: Daly City CA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I don't read this forum very often, but on the WiF forum someone hinted at a global version of WitP. Are there plans for expanding to a global WWII game?

This game system is deader than a doornail. With all the problems WitP presented (some apparently insoluble), a proposed game on the Mediterranean campaign in WWII was sh1tcanned, then the announcement was made that, from now on, 2by3 will be exploring other territory, with their "flagship" system being the engine behind GGWaW.

I can't say I'm disappointed any more. I have faced the reality of the situation. I have already tossed UV, and after I get my fill of the current round of PBEM games I have going in WitP, I will likely not be playing it again, either. Too much is wrong, left to accident, and just plain outside the bounds of what I expect from a simulation of war in this theater.

Unless and until someone comes up with a better game, I'll be going back to the cardboard-and-paper games, both the oldies-but-goodies and some exciting new titles by Decision Games and some others.


Amen to the system being dead. I do hope some other company with better resources one day tries this same subject, though they'd better hurry as I'm not getting any younger.

Do you ever play Zucker's stuff?



(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 34
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 1:40:20 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Amen to the system being dead. I do hope some other company with better resources one day tries this same subject, though they'd better hurry as I'm not getting any younger.

Do you ever play Zucker's stuff?

Not getting any younger? Try being older than dirt's dirt like me sometime. Why, I'm so old, I have to take Viagra just to remember what sex was like.

I tried Zucker's Napoleonic system in AH's Struggle of Nations. It's kind of awkward having leaders on the leader display to indicate that they're subordinate to other leaders. Other than that, I thought it was pretty good.

I used to play the Clash of Arms tactical Napoleonic series, particularly the four games that made up the three days of Waterloo. I can't get anybody at my club to play those anymore, though. They're all hip to that card-driven strategic game by GMT. Nobody hipped me to that.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 35
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 1:42:57 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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No one, no company, no individual, no group of programmers, NO ONE will try to make game as detailed, complex and ambitious as WITP in foreseeable future, make it 10-15 years. You may love it, you may hate it but you will not see a game remotely similar to WITP - perhaps not in our lifetime(s).

I am not saying WITP is perfect, all I am saying is I'm ready to place a 100 $ bet on the above statement. Now, if anyone's ready to collect the bets and come back in 15 years

BTW, I am afraid this may be taken as "personal attack", but I will say it in the friendliest manner possible. Tristan, anyone trying to find the reason as to why it is so (that no one will try to make another game as ambitious as WITP) need not look further than your posts... (Don't get flamey on me now, lest we both get banned , just stating my opinion in friendly manner.)

Oleg


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Post #: 36
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 2:34:35 AM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

No one, no company, no individual, no group of programmers, NO ONE will try to make game as detailed, complex and ambitious as WITP in foreseeable future, make it 10-15 years. You may love it, you may hate it but you will not see a game remotely similar to WITP - perhaps not in our lifetime(s).

I am not saying WITP is perfect, all I am saying is I'm ready to place a 100 $ bet on the above statement. Now, if anyone's ready to collect the bets and come back in 15 years

BTW, I am afraid this may be taken as "personal attack", but I will say it in the friendliest manner possible. Tristan, anyone trying to find the reason as to why it is so (that no one will try to make another game as ambitious as WITP) need not look further than your posts... (Don't get flamey on me now, lest we both get banned , just stating my opinion in friendly manner.)

Oleg



I don't take offense, Oleg, but why would you say such a thing?

Do you believe the quality of computer games (or any other product on the market, just name one) goes down because of honest and intelligent criticism? Have I somehow persuaded Gary not to design ambitious computer wargames in the future because I've found flaws in this latest Pacific game of his? Did the board-wargame head south back in the day when I wrote professional reviews for that hobby?

I don't think so. What I do think is that you could stand to reconsider your position.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 37
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 2:47:38 AM   
Tristanjohn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Amen to the system being dead. I do hope some other company with better resources one day tries this same subject, though they'd better hurry as I'm not getting any younger.

Do you ever play Zucker's stuff?

Not getting any younger? Try being older than dirt's dirt like me sometime. Why, I'm so old, I have to take Viagra just to remember what sex was like.

I tried Zucker's Napoleonic system in AH's Struggle of Nations. It's kind of awkward having leaders on the leader display to indicate that they're subordinate to other leaders. Other than that, I thought it was pretty good.

I used to play the Clash of Arms tactical Napoleonic series, particularly the four games that made up the three days of Waterloo. I can't get anybody at my club to play those anymore, though. They're all hip to that card-driven strategic game by GMT. Nobody hipped me to that.


Actually, the Clash of Arms stuff was just the sort of system I had in mind when I pictured you and your friends hunched over a gaming table. They don't like to play tactical Napoleonics fare? What kind of board wargamers are they? More strategically oriented? Would they be able to appreciate Europa or something of that nature?

Zucker's a kind of design genius, though I'm not sure he's gone anywhere special since his hey-day. A pretty good writer, too.

His SoN was one of those "breakthrough" efforts you made reference to above. The tracks were a bother, of course, but how else to keep track of on-map leader strength? What I really appreciated were the rules for facing and out-flanking movements that he introduced in that system. I wish he'd expored that facet of play further.

All in all I'd say that was one of the most sophisticated games AH ever published.




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Post #: 38
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 2:53:28 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Your criticism is honest, but I would not call it necessarily intelligent. It usually comes out as malicious and whiney (at least to me, and I am sure to many others as well). Sometimes (often) even nitpicky.

Faced with such criticism (and you're not alone in that), what do you think it takes for a company to realise it's much more profitable, less unnerving, easier to make - lets put it mildly - "less demanding" games than WITP.

Most of WITP customers belong to "hard to please" cathegory. Extreme examples like yourself belong to "very VERY hard to please" or "impossible to please" or "never satisfied" cathegory. Would you like to depend on such customers for your living?

O.


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Post #: 39
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 2:58:23 AM   
2Stepper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I began on boardgames and moved to computers as soon as I discovered SSI. SPI had been taken over by TSR and switched to making D&D games over wargames.
I have not played a boardgame since I bought my Commodore 64.
I loved boardgames but I can't see ever going back to them. Everygame I liked now has a computer game on the subject that is easier to play.
Things I have never encountered in computer games that I did experiance with boardgames.

1. Opponents starting fist fights over die rolls.
2. the "Obvious blunder rule"
3. Cats (or babies or dogs or gusts of wind, spilled beers, maps catching on fire???)
4. I can't find the "Akagi" counter
5. "WTF does rule 168.5.63.61 mean exactly? With WITP at least you can go ask the designer
6. "I wish I could find someone to play"
7. "There is no room for these maps"
8. "OK I need this room, pick up that game you can set it up again tomorrow"
9. "Screw you it's my game and I quit"
10. "You moved that stack" "No I didn't I just picked it up to count factors it was in that hex, see it can reach this hex and put you out of supply" "No it can't because it was 1 hex back you moved it already"


Uhhhh Mog....You forgot:#11. "Hey,what are you doing with that fine-point marking pen?"
and #12. "What's that over there!?"(pointing at the corner in the basement).




Lets not forget one other immortal point too. TIME! I still have a pang for a lot of board games (still have several in the closet). Point I make is they STAY in the closet simply because I don't have 4 hours to setup one of them and god knows how many hours to get through a handful of turns. I've always applauded the effort of 2b3 and Matrix for taking on the monster that is WiTP, but hey... I've said this before too. Its a game! If we all wanted a 100% perfect history simulator, someone would have invented a time machine with "invisible god-mode" built in so you could watch any aspect of the pacific war at least in the 2nd or 3rd person and root on our favorites.

Silly as it sounds, a lot of the "knit-picking" I read on the forum lately sounds like thats what folks want. ABSOLUTE perfection seems to be what folks want. I was around when the release date was getting close and folks had the itch for this game SO bad that no amount of scratching was going to help.

Heinsight being what it is, it doesn't bother me that maybe we're not quite to the level of detail we'd like. But hey, when you look at this monster objectively, we're not far off. It is only a game afterall and when you consider the effort to even make it? Lordy!

So as it is, the boardgames will keep collecting dust, and I'll keep rolling dice on pc-based wargames. A, cause I love em, and B, they save me a TON of time! Sail on lads! I'm still waiting on my first turn from Fallshirmsjager. LOL!

< Message edited by 2Stepper -- 6/1/2005 3:01:35 AM >


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Post #: 40
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 4:36:47 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Most of WITP customers belong to "hard to please" cathegory. Extreme examples like yourself belong to "very VERY hard to please" or "impossible to please" or "never satisfied" cathegory. Would you like to depend on such customers for your living?

O.


That is the heart and soul of capitalistic success, Oleg. When you begin, you always address the "worst case scenario" customers. That way, your product, whether it is a wargame or something else, satisfies to the degree that you do not get that worst of all possible things - a negative reputation among your customer base.

The people you describe are always the most vocal and always have the greatest effect on perceived customer satisfaction - maybe not real customer satisfaction, but nobody is interested in "Well, I think these guys do a great job." In journalism, it is called the "man bites dog" effect.

Ignore them at your own risk. Bow wow.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 41
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 5:10:05 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

No one, no company, no individual, no group of programmers, NO ONE will try to make game as detailed, complex and ambitious as WITP in foreseeable future, make it 10-15 years. You may love it, you may hate it but you will not see a game remotely similar to WITP - perhaps not in our lifetime(s).


I think similar things were being said when UV first came out - i was surprised therefore when WITP came out. I think someone will come out with an improved version of WITP (or a Pacific War or even global war) when computer horsepower increases.

_____________________________


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Post #: 42
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 6:38:32 AM   
Hartley


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quote:


That is the heart and soul of capitalistic success, Oleg. When you begin, you always address the "worst case scenario" customers.


Not when there are 6 of them,
while the product takes 6 years to develop.


Many "grognards" are unaware of how esoteric their interests are.




(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 43
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 11:09:09 AM   
Tristanjohn


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From: Daly City CA USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Your criticism is honest, but I would not call it necessarily intelligent. It usually comes out as malicious and whiney (at least to me, and I am sure to many others as well). Sometimes (often) even nitpicky.

Faced with such criticism (and you're not alone in that), what do you think it takes for a company to realise it's much more profitable, less unnerving, easier to make - lets put it mildly - "less demanding" games than WITP.

Most of WITP customers belong to "hard to please" cathegory. Extreme examples like yourself belong to "very VERY hard to please" or "impossible to please" or "never satisfied" cathegory. Would you like to depend on such customers for your living?

O.



Part of me whines when I write critically of Gary's games. This is because he's been one of the few wargame authors over the years that's bothered to design games on the Pacific theater, a subject I have deep interest in, and at a scale I can sink my teeth into. The fly in the buttermilk is Gary isn't very good at the details. Also, I've noticed over the years a strong penchant to revisit old ground with an unchanged point of view. The result has been, for my taste, more and more unsatisfying. To top it off, Gary's work has been somewhat sloppy of late, and furthermore, the after-market support he seems willing to extend to his customers has waned appreciably in the past ten or twelve years. The result of all this on me can, occasionally, cause something which approaches a whine to slip out. Here and there. But then I consider that fallibility a privilege I've both paid for with hard cash and to a degree and in a moral sense earned over time through my own contributions, modest as these might have been, to our hobby.

Am I malicious? I think that was a poor choice of words, Oleg. Malice bespeaks of evil or wicked intent, a desire to do great harm. A learned man who read my work would notice in an instant that my criticism is objective and constructive by nature. I encourage Gary to do better always, and then go on to give my opinion how that might be accomplished. This describes someone with a helping hand extended, not a person consumed with malevolence.

Are most WitP customers "hard to please"? Do you not read these boards for meaning? Can you not see that each and every time a player steps forth to offer hard criticism, a bevy of 2by3/Matrix supporters veritably rushes forth to offer their small and stilted apologies and denial, and should that person with a complaint persist, is he not then subjected to ridicule in an effort to drive him away? That is your concept of "most customers" being "hard to please"? Do you suppose a man who says on the one hand "I'd like it to be better . . . " but then on the other remarks ". . . but I'm mostly satisfied with the way it is now and grateful for what I have . . ." and caps it off with ". . . so please, Gary, keep shoveling it, because I just can't get enough" is a good example of someone "hard to please"?

As for what direction 2by3/Matrix care to go in: if indeed they concentrate solely on the beer-and-pretzels crowd then surely they will have an easier sled of it. So what? The world is full of people and all of them do not share the same standards. I don't know what the sales figures are for Risk, but I do know you can apparently buy that game all over the world, or at least you can buy it everywhere I've traveled. It seems to appeal to a wide audience, and some people consider that a wargame--and in its own way it is, I guess.

But am I responsible for 2by3/Matrix going in that direction for the reason I complain about fairly serious errors in a more ambitious program that they've designed and published and I've paid for? I don't think so, but you're welcome to.

Would I like to depend on me for my living? Surprisingly, yes, I would. I've found that I produce better work when my customers demand improvement. It is all too easy to perform down to one's market. That is, in fact, a common human trap. I try to avoid it.

Finally, is my criticism intelligent? Can you not tell the difference, Oleg?

You know, I've thought for some time that what on-line companies ought to provide is a special forum for special customers, a special place where their special needs might be better cared for. They might consider complimentary coffee at the door, and perhaps even provide special little boxes of virtual crayons for those whose preference is to boldly mark-up the walls.

Now if you can't understand that, or simply fail appreciate it, go see Pasternaksi. He'll give you some therapy.



(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 44
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 11:34:11 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

You know, I've thought for some time that what on-line companies ought to provide is a special forum for special customers, a special place where their special needs might be better cared for. They might consider complimentary coffee at the door, and perhaps even provide special little boxes of virtual crayons for those whose preference is to boldly mark-up the walls.

Is he ... is he talking about me?





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Tristanjohn)
Post #: 45
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 11:37:17 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley
Not when there are 6 of them,
while the product takes 6 years to develop.


Many "grognards" are unaware of how esoteric their interests are.

I'm not talking about customers identified after the product reaches the market, Hartley. I'm talking about how you plan to succeed with your product insertion into the market before real customers even exist - and before the product itself even exists.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Hartley)
Post #: 46
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 6:05:13 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
I used to play the Clash of Arms tactical Napoleonic series, particularly the four games that made up the three days of Waterloo.


I have that series too. Some day (after I'm retired, no doubt) I'll play the campaign. I learned the series from the original Martial Enterprises games (way back in the mid-70s).

Computer games are wonderful, but there's nothing like having a board with a couple thousand counters on a table in front of you with your opponent across the table from you. I'll always be a fan of board games. I still have a closet full of them.

If anyone is interested in operational or tactical boardgames, try The Gamers. They have wonderful stuff too.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 47
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 10:20:59 PM   
hexgod

 

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Well, obviously Matrix games did not include Pasternakski in their marketing strategy. Not to mention overlooking his more than wierd (aforementiond as "Special") group of Hard-Core carboard + paper goons. And somehow managed to be moderatly successful in creating a game that, in its own right, is fairly fun to play. Provided that you have the time to play it, considering all the factors that are missing, or are too fast for aforementioned "Special" people; it actually takes a while to bring the full scenario to conclusion.


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Post #: 48
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 11:51:24 PM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hexgod


Well, obviously Matrix games did not include Pasternakski in their marketing strategy. Not to mention overlooking his more than wierd (aforementiond as "Special") group of Hard-Core carboard + paper goons. And somehow managed to be moderatly successful in creating a game that, in its own right, is fairly fun to play. Provided that you have the time to play it, considering all the factors that are missing, or are too fast for aforementioned "Special" people; it actually takes a while to bring the full scenario to conclusion.


What brought this on? I don't care if you toss a few sophomoric insults at me, but there is no reason for you to take potshots at my friends.

I have been on these forums since long before WitP was published (since before UV, in fact), and have tried to be a constructive contributor to the extent that a casual visitor on forums can be. I am a Matrix customer and have been supportive of their efforts. I comment on the flaws and failures of the UV/WitP game system because I was hoping for better - and hoped (fruitlessly, it seems) that significant improvement in the product could be realized from intelligent, pertinent commentary.

As far as being "goons," all members of the simple little wargaming club I belong to are professional people who are mostly veterans, family men, and responsible citizens of the community. We were lucky enough to have one member who runs a hobby shop that has a large, unused room in the back. Our budget for game purchases is the annual "dues" we all kick in. $120 apiece as a personal game-buying budget is not, I would guess, anywhere near as much as a lot of people here spend in a years' time on their wargaming hobby. We are not rich, we are not pretentious, we play both board wargames and computer wargames (and dabble in a few other pursuits, as well). On holidays, we and our families devote time to services and meals for the needy, particularly homeless and otherwise disadvantaged veterans. We go to work every day, care for our families and neighbors, and enjoy our hobby as an adjunct to our strong, shared interest in the serious study of history - although we don't presume to trot out fancy labels for ourselves like "historygod" or any of that kind of nonsense.

So how about you go back to governing your little six-sided domain?


_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to hexgod)
Post #: 49
RE: WitP going global? - 6/1/2005 11:54:48 PM   
Terminus


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As much as I like taking my "sophomoric" potshots at Pasternakski, I don't think it's fair to snipe at the members of his wargaming club. We don't know them, and if they're having fun doing their thing, then that's up to them.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 6/1/2005 11:56:30 PM >


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Post #: 50
RE: WitP going global? - 6/2/2005 1:00:57 AM   
hexgod

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As much as I like taking my "sophomoric" potshots at Pasternakski, I don't think it's fair to snipe at the members of his wargaming club. We don't know them, and if they're having fun doing their thing, then that's up to them.



Fair enough, I meant no real harm. It's just that to express so much frustration, and to have such high expectations of a computer war game; it get's old after a while. The amount of capital / resources / time to create a video game of any kind is beyond enormous.



_____________________________

We programmers never finish, we just run out of time...

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