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The Great 155 Debate... aka Significance of v1.52 OOB changes

 
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The Great 155 Debate... aka Significance of v1.52 OOB c... - 6/10/2005 2:16:21 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		How significant are these changes? Worth starting over for if your only two and half weeks into the G campaign?

< Message edited by treespider -- 6/11/2005 6:27:50 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 2:21:38 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Hi
the changes to some of the gun devices to enable them to fire at aircraft is significant for later in the game.

Michael


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 2
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 2:27:28 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

How significant are these changes? Worth starting over for if your only two and half weeks into the G campaign?


The ship gun facing issues are No Big Deal, the Japanese flak changes are a HUGE deal (IMHO) 10.0 on critical fix scale.

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Post #: 3
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 2:27:32 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Thanks...I may have to discuss a restart with my PBEM opponent...

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Post #: 4
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 5:14:14 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pry


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

How significant are these changes? Worth starting over for if your only two and half weeks into the G campaign?


The ship gun facing issues are No Big Deal, the Japanese flak changes are a HUGE deal (IMHO) 10.0 on critical fix scale.


Im curious why would you rate DP issue as so important? As I posted in other thread, Japanese AA is generally almost useless, even when used en-masse. Why do you think couple of DP guns on some atoll actually firing on aircraft will make change that warrants rating "10 on a critical fix scale", when 100s of my dedicated army AA guns appear incapable of hitting single B17, in a 100 B17 raid on their base?

Perhaps Army AA guns don't work too

O.

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Post #: 5
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 5:44:25 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, Oleg,

Some of the Army AA guns were not firing at aircraft. It wasn't only DP guns. It's a huge correction.

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Post #: 6
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 5:53:04 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		What exactly is "some guns"?

But I guess US Army 155mm field gun works well as "naval gun" as listed in database Billbow sunk dozens of my ships that way.

God sometimes I wonder why I play this game at all... Mike Scholl if you read this, today I am with you








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Post #: 7
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 7:07:39 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I understand the frustration - keep in mind thought that we're just about 12 months after release now. These were effectively typos in a database of enormouse size that went unnoticed for all that time. Moreover, countless successful, fun games have been completed over those month with players having an understanding that (in effect) Japanese flak was "weak" and some of those US artillery pieces were nasty.

As long as players understand this, I don't see why existing PBEMs have to be restarted. We've been dealing with the effects of these typos since last June, so they are clearly not game-breakers though new games will see some re-balancing for some tactics. I would personally rate these more like a 6/10 but they are not unimportant.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 8
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 7:26:07 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Question: does changing the US 155mm Gun now mean that it can't fire at ships at all?

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Post #: 9
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 7:29:08 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I understand the frustration - keep in mind thought that we're just about 12 months after release now. These were effectively typos in a database of enormouse size that went unnoticed for all that time. Moreover, countless successful, fun games have been completed over those month with players having an understanding that (in effect) Japanese flak was "weak" and some of those US artillery pieces were nasty.

As long as players understand this, I don't see why existing PBEMs have to be restarted. We've been dealing with the effects of these typos since last June, so they are clearly not game-breakers though new games will see some re-balancing for some tactics. I would personally rate these more like a 6/10 but they are not unimportant.

Regards,

- Erik


Well Pry *THE* OOB guy rates them as 10

There's one, just one thing that would help immesurably with this, past and future patches. There's gotta be a way to apply OOB changes to games in progress! That would help so much with customer satisfaction and would eliminate 90% of frustration inherent with these bugs.

WITP is just so immensely time consuming. Which is fine. It is also complex, which is also fine. What is definitely NOT fine is the need to restart for each and every OOB change to be applied.

O.


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Post #: 10
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 8:29:30 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
There's one, just one thing that would help immesurably with this, past and future patches. There's gotta be a way to apply OOB changes to games in progress! That would help so much with customer satisfaction and would eliminate 90% of frustration inherent with these bugs.

WITP is just so immensely time consuming. Which is fine. It is also complex, which is also fine. What is definitely NOT fine is the need to restart for each and every OOB change to be applied.


I agree with that, unfortunately I think that would be a major, major design change.

Regards,

- Erik


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(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 11
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 8:35:37 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		I don't know...

It appears the game takes OOB info from scenario file just once, at start. After that, OOB is kept in memory while the game runs, and is saved in each and every savefile (PBEM file).

What is needed, is separate tool, that would take updated OOB (from new scenario file or wherever) and apply it to the savefile (PBEM file) of the game in progress. This little applet would look into the updated OOB, decide which items need changing/updating, and would apply the updates to the savefile. No design changesa are needed.

Seems reasonably easy to do (from my, admittedly layman's, point of view)

O.


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Post #: 12
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:08:53 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko





If this is not a game breaker than I feel I can play with constant CTDs and have fun



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Post #: 13
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:11:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser
If this is not a game breaker than I feel I can play with constant CTDs and have fun


I have to say, the 155mm issue confuses me a bit. Shouldn't 155mm Arty be able to engage ship targets? Wasn't putting some of the artillery on Tulagi intended for that purpose when the Marines landed on Guadalcanal, or am I mis-remembering?

Back from the beta days, it never struck me as "wrong" that us 155mm guns were able to engage ships, based on what I'd read.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 14
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:13:29 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		The list above shows about one third of my ships sunk by 155mm. I still have dozens of ships damaged, and sinking in agony (IJN damage control "bonus" ), and will have them sink over coming weeks. I assume most of them, when they sink, will have 155mm in "sunk by" column.

This seems to me like more important than having 4.7 DP actually fire on a/c (Japanese AA being useless anyway)

O.

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Post #: 15
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:15:23 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser
If this is not a game breaker than I feel I can play with constant CTDs and have fun


I have to say, the 155mm issue confuses me a bit. Shouldn't 155mm Arty be able to engage ship targets? Wasn't putting some of the artillery on Tulagi intended for that purpose when the Marines landed on Guadalcanal, or am I mis-remembering?

Back from the beta days, it never struck me as "wrong" that us 155mm guns were able to engage ships, based on what I'd read.

Regards,

- Erik



I don't know, we definitely need some explanation on this. In his latest notes Pry re-classed 155mm from naval gun to army weapon (thus unable to fire on ships).

So I conclude results like the one above are not intended, and are result of bug. I may be wrong though.

O.



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Post #: 16
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:25:42 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser
If this is not a game breaker than I feel I can play with constant CTDs and have fun


I have to say, the 155mm issue confuses me a bit. Shouldn't 155mm Arty be able to engage ship targets? Wasn't putting some of the artillery on Tulagi intended for that purpose when the Marines landed on Guadalcanal, or am I mis-remembering?

Back from the beta days, it never struck me as "wrong" that us 155mm guns were able to engage ships, based on what I'd read.

Regards,

- Erik



So may be we should convert all other army guns to naval? Don’t get me wrong I just don’t think that there can be a justification for a typo. This is not the case when historical facts can help to back up the point… it was typo.

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Post #: 17
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:36:09 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not so much trying to justify a typo, just saying that I have no inside info on this change and I didn't see it in the list until it was pointed out. I'll have to wait for Paul's comment on this - if this was the only artillery piece in the game outside of CD units that was able to whack ships, then it must have been a typo/design error.

The thing is that I and every WitP player have seen this happening for a year and it never struck me as wrong because of the historical background. I agree that if it's not consistent with the rest of the game it's a glitch/typo, but I'm not sure I entirely understand why these guns shouldn't be able to fire on ships if so.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 18
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 9:49:23 PM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard. Of course, some one would need to quit complaining long enough to ask nice like.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
There's one, just one thing that would help immesurably with this, past and future patches. There's gotta be a way to apply OOB changes to games in progress! That would help so much with customer satisfaction and would eliminate 90% of frustration inherent with these bugs.

WITP is just so immensely time consuming. Which is fine. It is also complex, which is also fine. What is definitely NOT fine is the need to restart for each and every OOB change to be applied.


I agree with that, unfortunately I think that would be a major, major design change.

Regards,

- Erik



(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 19
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:02:16 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Ok, I'll jump in here with my limited knowledge about exactly what the change that was just made is all about. I hope I don't confuse the situation further.

I see in the database that the 5 in CD upgrades to the 155 mm Field Gun. For USMC defense battalions, they should be firing a 155mm gun at enemy ships once they upgrade (nothing else seems to upgrade to the 155mm field gun). If an OOB change was just made to change these guns into weapons that won't fire at ships, and the upgrade path of the 5in CD was not changed, we have a problem. Maybe the 5in CD was changed to upgrade to another CD type weapon (I haven't looked at the OOB change list).

Now, there are also Corps artillery units that are listed as having as their standard load out a 155mm Field Gun. I doubt these units were intended to shoot at ships, but I don't know exactly what Gary and Rich had in mind when the database was created. As for the impact of this, I found 3 US units at the start of the game that have 155mm Field Guns that probably should not be shooting at ships. There may be more, but I only found 3. Most units have 155mm Howitzers, not Field Guns. The next Corps Artillery type unit that comes into the game arrives in early 1944. Again, I may have missed some units, but it looks to me that the only impact on the game was that 3 units prior to 1944 can fire at ships that probably shouldn't. Is this a huge impact, well I guess it could be if those 3 units are in the right place, but it may just be that the units that are shooting up Oleg's ships are proper coast defense units.

Pry, did you take into account the 5in CD units upgrading to the Field Gun when you made your changes?

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 20
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:19:05 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Mike,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard.


Had no idea - I think that would make a lot of people very happy.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 21
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:19:51 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Joel,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Pry, did you take into account the 5in CD units upgrading to the Field Gun when you made your changes?


Thanks, that's definitely helpful.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 22
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:22:40 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard. Of course, some one would need to quit complaining long enough to ask nice like.

Bye...

Michael Wood



I beg you, I beg you, I beg you.

Ok I will stop. Can you add this feature, please ?

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 23
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:46:19 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard. Of course, some one would need to quit complaining long enough to ask nice like.

Bye...

Michael Wood



Pretty Please... With whipped cream and a cocktail cherry on top!

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Post #: 24
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 10:55:18 PM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2095
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline 		Hello...

Talked with Joel. Adding routine to update saved game device file data, using key press in the game. Must update each saved game individually and only with key press (to avoid corrupting 3rd party scenarios). Update will only apply to devices. Will be in build 1.54 (already finished 1.53).

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Mike,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard.


Had no idea - I think that would make a lot of people very happy.

Regards,

- Erik


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 25
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/10/2005 11:29:40 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Mike!!

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Post #: 26
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/11/2005 12:01:15 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Thanks, great, cherries on top etc.

I hope it will work on PBEMs too.

O.


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Post #: 27
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/11/2005 12:59:55 AM   
myros

 

Posts: 289
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Great news, has always been a pet peeve of mine that OOB changes forced a new game start in order to see the changes/fixes. After the 5th or so restart I began longing for a save game editor ;p

M

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 28
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/11/2005 1:17:38 AM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

Well, actually not. If it would be useful to any one, I could add a hot key in the save screen that would update the OOB changes in version 1.60 (1.52 at the moment, but released as 1.60). Would not be hard. Of course, some one would need to quit complaining long enough to ask nice like.





YEEEEHAW!



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Post #: 29
RE: Significance of v1.52 OOB changes - 6/11/2005 1:32:23 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I believe Pry stopped the US CD guns from upgrading to 155's in his new scenarios.

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Post #: 30
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