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RE: Maps for MWIF

 
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RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 1:08:25 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Here are some screen shots for the "almost final" map graphics. This one shows the new graphics for the alpine hexsides.

There is some kind of Santa Claus beard effect here, but it looks correct.
Will see on larger maps.

quote:

The green hexside borders indicate weather zones - I intend to make them a toggle so they can be removed whenever the player wishes. I looked at making the thickness of the country borders thinner but that made them too vague.

The weather zones are crucial to WiF FE play, so you should consider making them only more visible.
For the country borders, I like them this way. Just the right thickness for my taste.
If the weather line was more thick, it could show the Red Borders within it when they are both on the same hexside, this could be good (N & NE of Trieste for instance).
Or it could be the Borders line that would be thicker than the weather lines.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 601
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 1:09:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
The weather zone lines might be a bit more visible though. Making them clickable on/off is a good idea too.
Lars


Perhaps simply changing the color from dark green to something else. With the current color scheme for the map, the dark green disappears frequently (against different terrain types).

One reason I am not that concerned about the weather zone borders/lines is that there already is a toggle that will place very noticeable indicators in each hex as to which weather zone it is in. The weather zone indicators are comparable in size and shape to the hex control indicators/flags.

While I am on the topic,...

CWIF gave each hex characteristic/toggle a different placement within the hex. The flags/control was bottom center, the weather and weather zones were above that. I am thinking of simplifying the whole deal and just using one placement (bottom center). This would mean that when you toggle one of them on, it would replace any one currently being displayed. Whenever you toggle one off, you end up with none showing. Clearly this would not affect the toggles for displaying rail lines, names, and units.


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Post #: 602
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 2:00:44 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		The symbols other than just the weather border line that can be toggled in are one of the features I personally never use in CWiF and I find them introducing unwanted clutter on the maps. The green weather line on the other hand is a good help in deciding how to move units.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 603
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 2:20:05 AM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 660
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline 		They look too much like clouds to me. (there's always one complainer). I would kjeep the white, but I would render it as something more jagged, like the "caret" style mountains on old maps.


^ here be dragons ^^
^^^^^^^^Moria^^^^^^^^^^

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Post #: 604
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 2:52:58 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
They look too much like clouds to me. (there's always one complainer). I would kjeep the white, but I would render it as something more jagged, like the "caret" style mountains on old maps.


^ here be dragons ^^
^^^^^^^^Moria^^^^^^^^^^


2 problems with the jagged line alternative:

(1) They aren't quite in keeping with the other graphic elements used for terrain. Jagged mountain peaks assume the viewer has the perspective of being on the ground looking off in the distance. Most of the other graphic elements assume the viewer is airborne and looking down on the terrain.

(2) Though it could probably be made to work for the horizontal mountain hexsides, the vertical ones would look like stacked "something-or-others".

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Post #: 605
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 3:46:59 AM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
They look too much like clouds to me. (there's always one complainer). I would kjeep the white, but I would render it as something more jagged, like the "caret" style mountains on old maps.


^ here be dragons ^^
^^^^^^^^Moria^^^^^^^^^^


2 problems with the jagged line alternative:

(1) They aren't quite in keeping with the other graphic elements used for terrain. Jagged mountain peaks assume the viewer has the perspective of being on the ground looking off in the distance. Most of the other graphic elements assume the viewer is airborne and looking down on the terrain.

(2) Though it could probably be made to work for the horizontal mountain hexsides, the vertical ones would look like stacked "something-or-others".


I also thought about suggesting a contour line alternative, but that doesn't sound quite right.

All I can say is that the clouds look way too fluffy. Maybe there needs to be some dark color around them to give the transition from mountain to snow. Or add some valleys. The current alternative does not look like mountains seen from space.

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Post #: 606
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 5:12:30 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
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Status: offline 		I disagree on the comments re the alpine hexes. I think they come across as a valid barrier without being too formed.

Flying over the Rockies on a very regular basis I can say that I think they are a good reflection of snow mass at the peats.

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Post #: 607
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 6:49:59 AM   
rtamesis

 

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Status: offline 		This may be a stupid question, but if solid, curved, 3-5 pixel black lines are not being used to represent anything on the map such as roads, why not just use it to represent rail lines instead of the current tapeworm-like symbol currently being used? The advantage would be a much cleaner look to the map even if you zoom in. There is just something very off-putting (from a graphic designer's eyes) with the current incarnation of the rail lines.

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Post #: 608
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 7:12:05 AM   
mlees


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Status: offline 		The current incarnation is the closest representation of what is on the World In Flames boardgame Mapset. Some of the diehard fans prefer it remain as close as possible to that version.

At the "zoomed out" (lowered?) levels of display, they don't look bad, and appear most closely to the boardgame. In the higher levels of zoom in, they get thicker, and look like tapeworms to me, too.

I think Steve has expressed a dislike of the traditional single solid line with cross ties for a rail road. Example of that can (barely) be seen from the US Geological symbols:




(Steve's vote counts much more than mine. Hehe. I am merely "stirring the pot".)

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< Message edited by mlees -- 4/20/2006 7:17:43 AM >

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Post #: 609
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 7:16:38 AM   
mlees


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Status: offline 		Other ways to show these RR lines also include:




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Post #: 610
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 1:07:54 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

The current incarnation is the closest representation of what is on the World In Flames boardgame Mapset. Some of the diehard fans prefer it remain as close as possible to that version.

At the "zoomed out" (lowered?) levels of display, they don't look bad, and appear most closely to the boardgame. In the higher levels of zoom in, they get thicker, and look like tapeworms to me, too.

I think Steve has expressed a dislike of the traditional single solid line with cross ties for a rail road. Example of that can (barely) be seen from the US Geological symbols:




(Steve's vote counts much more than mine. Hehe. I am merely "stirring the pot".)


Votes? There was voting? The possibility of ballot tampering rears its ugly head again.

I might come back to the rail lines later. "Before releasing the game?", they ask. Hmm, not sure.

Programming the automation of the rail lines (so they didn't have to all be drawn by hand using bitmaps) was non-trivial. I needed to get something to show up on the screen just to see if that worked. At that time I did invest some effort into testing different colors and styles. The real problem is the distortion that occurs when trying to find something that looks similar at all levels of zoom. As it is, at the lowest level of zoom (1) the rail lines are currently being drawn as a simple black line with a thickness of 1 pixel.

I also wanted to wait until all the other graphic elements of the map had been done. For example, the icons for the cities, resources, et al and the rivers, lakes, and alpine hexsides were missing at that time. We have also modified some of the basic terrain types since I last worked on the rail lines.

Fundamental graphical elements for the map are now mostly in place. I expect the forts to be done in a few days (I reviewed a third pass on them today). All that would be missing from the map graphics, once the forts are done, would be the straits depiction. Oh, and we have recently been discussing the border line thickness/shape/color for weather zones.

No promises, but I am aware of the criticisms. Your examples of alternatives were/are very welcome.

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Post #: 611
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 1:13:47 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtamesis

This may be a stupid question, but if solid, curved, 3-5 pixel black lines are not being used to represent anything on the map such as roads, why not just use it to represent rail lines instead of the current tapeworm-like symbol currently being used? The advantage would be a much cleaner look to the map even if you zoom in. There is just something very off-putting (from a graphic designer's eyes) with the current incarnation of the rail lines.


Yes, a possibility.

For both the rivers and the rail lines, I had been trying to match the WIF FE maps.

Eventually I had to concede it was infeasible for the rivers - there just aren't enough pixels at all levels of zoom.

I am not quite ready to concede the same for the rail lines (but close to doing so). Remember, I used to play tournament chess and I learned early (and the hard way) that a position should not resigned until it is almost embarassingly obvious that it is hopeless.

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Post #: 612
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 2:48:21 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

Votes? There was voting? The possibility of ballot tampering rears its ugly head again.

I might come back to the rail lines later. "Before releasing the game?", they ask. Hmm, not sure.


With all this adversity against those railways, I must say (surprising, no ?) that I kind of like them as they are now.
Moreover, the more I review the MWiF map, the more I admire the automation work done by Steve for railways, because it also apply in the rest of the world. Everywhere on the WiF map the railways are smooth and "natural". It's a beauty.

About the graphic, I like this one as it is

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Post #: 613
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 5:32:57 PM   
SamuraiProgrmmr

 

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From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline 		For the record, I liked the alpine hexsides.

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Post #: 614
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 5:54:10 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are some screen shots for the "almost final" map graphics. This one shows the new graphics for the alpine hexsides.
The green hexside borders indicate weather zones - I intend to make them a toggle so they can be removed whenever the player wishes. I looked at making the thickness of the country borders thinner but that made them too vague.





Here's a Google Earth shot of the same area of the Alps. The main difference is that the contours of the valleys are more visible in the Google Earth image than in the current graphics.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 615
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/20/2006 9:24:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Status: offline 		Fred,

Beautiful picture. Thanks.

The satellite view would change somewhat (more or less white) depending on the time of year, obviously.

It also displays the difficulty of converting the real world into a game map. If the player were given the satellite view when playing the game, it would be extremely difficult to determine what moves were legal. That is, where are the passes that the troops can move through and the mountain ranges they can not cross?

I gave the graphics artist very explicit instructions that the alpine hexsides should look impassable to even infantry on foot. Only ski and mountain units can cross them. In other words, I told him to make them contain distinct linear elements to indicate that movement was impossible.

Still, your map picture is lovely. I do so like those satellite views. I own a copy of "Mission to Earth: Landsat Views the World". A terrific book with glossy pictures of the whole earth.

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Post #: 616
RE: Maps for MWIF (Google Earth for MWIF) - 4/20/2006 9:31:54 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Fred,

Beautiful picture. Thanks.

The satellite view would change somewhat (more or less white) depending on the time of year, obviously.

It also displays the difficulty of converting the real world into a game map. If the player were given the satellite view when playing the game, it would be extremely difficult to determine what moves were legal. That is, where are the passes that the troops can move through and the mountain ranges they can not cross?

I gave the graphics artist very explicit instructions that the alpine hexsides should look impassable to even infantry on foot. Only ski and mountain units can cross them. In other words, I told him to make them contain distinct linear elements to indicate that movement was impossible.

Still, your map picture is lovely. I do so like those satellite views. I own a copy of "Mission to Earth: Landsat Views the World". A terrific book with glossy pictures of the whole earth.

It would be pretty trivial (but, alas, quite time consuming) to add Google Earth links (.kmz files) to each hex -- click on the link, launch a view of the current hex in Google Earth. There's no technical reason why you could not do it at each zoom level, or for a given range of hexes.

Once the map is final this would be a fun project for a distributed team. So as not to add any work to MWIF, we could put an image version of the map onto a webserver and set up a simple database to associate hex coordinates and .kmz files.


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Post #: 617
RE: Maps for MWIF (Google Earth for MWIF) - 4/20/2006 9:35:46 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Fred,

Beautiful picture. Thanks.

The satellite view would change somewhat (more or less white) depending on the time of year, obviously.

It also displays the difficulty of converting the real world into a game map. If the player were given the satellite view when playing the game, it would be extremely difficult to determine what moves were legal. That is, where are the passes that the troops can move through and the mountain ranges they can not cross?

I gave the graphics artist very explicit instructions that the alpine hexsides should look impassable to even infantry on foot. Only ski and mountain units can cross them. In other words, I told him to make them contain distinct linear elements to indicate that movement was impossible.

Still, your map picture is lovely. I do so like those satellite views. I own a copy of "Mission to Earth: Landsat Views the World". A terrific book with glossy pictures of the whole earth.

It would be pretty trivial (but, alas, quite time consuming) to add Google Earth links (.kmz files) to each hex -- click on the link, launch a view of the current hex in Google Earth. There's no technical reason why you could not do it at each zoom level, or for a given range of hexes.

Once the map is final this would be a fun project for a distributed team. So as not to add any work to MWIF, we could put an image version of the map onto a webserver and set up a simple database to associate hex coordinates and .kmz files.



Ah, okay. But not by me.


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Post #: 618
RE: Maps for MWIF (Google Earth for MWIF) - 4/20/2006 9:36:10 PM   
mlees


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quote:

It would be pretty trivial (but, alas, quite time consuming) to add Google Earth links (.kmz files) to each hex -- click on the link, launch a view of the current hex in Google Earth. There's no technical reason why you could not do it at each zoom level, or for a given range of hexes.


Hmm. I don't know. That is a personal choice, I think. To me, the sat views are to distracting, and "dark". It might also clash with the gamemap icons (city, port, fort symbols), and the game units in the hex.

I prefer the map to be clear, unambiguous, and nondistracting.

The sat view is for gazing at the map when that is your only goal, I think.

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Post #: 619
RE: Maps for MWIF (Google Earth for MWIF) - 4/20/2006 9:41:33 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees


Hmm. I don't know. That is a personal choice, I think. To me, the sat views are to distracting, and "dark". It might also clash with the gamemap icons (city, port, fort symbols), and the game units in the hex.

I prefer the map to be clear, unambiguous, and nondistracting.

The sat view is for gazing at the map when that is your only goal, I think.


I agree! And Steve has persuaded me that the current alpine hexes are best.

I am not sufficiently gungho to do this -- but there are a lot of people who love creating these Google Earth mashups, and I bet we'll find there are a few in the final MWIF market.

(now going completely off topic) It's interesting to wonder whether there is hope for a renaissance of gaming in the proliferation of Google Earth & maps APIs - it seems to me you ought to be able to do a pretty cool "massively parallel" war game on top of Google Earth.

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Post #: 620
RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/21/2006 11:24:31 AM   
Neilster


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Status: offline 		I think the alpine hexside graphics look good but could be improved by making them slightly narrower. That is, reducing their width perpendicular to the hexside. Less blobby.

As to the rail lines; I knew when I first raised a bit of an objection that it may not be received well. Steve had obviously put a lot of work into their automation and it's natural for him to be protective of them, especially when they do resemble those in cardboard WiF so closely. I just don't think they look any good compared to the rest of the map features.

I'm reading the Oxford Companion to the Second World War (a weighty tome) and all the maps have railways denoted by cross-tied black lines which look great, and are unambiguously railways. When I showed some MWiF screenshots to people, they were very impressed but a few said things like "What are those white things? Roads?" or "It looks good apart those those squiggly white lines".

I think Steve did a great job of representing the cardboard WiF railways. The problem, IMHO, was the cardboard WiF railways.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 621
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/7/2006 8:07:04 PM   
trees trees

 

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Status: offline 		I've been looking at the China maps some and I have a few questions: will the hex-lines around islands be visible? It might seem cool looking to shade in the water the way it is done, but you need to see hex-lines to know which islands are separate hexes, and which hexes have all-sea hexsides and are thus invadable.

I'm assuming a great advantage of the computer map is that the start lines can be turned on and off.

But it can stil get tricky when the weather lines lie on a river line or a political boundary. Have you thought about using dots in the weather line to help make them easier to follow in such cases, as on the paper maps?

If MWiF comes in a box over the counter, a great play aid would be to have the map already printed on a separate piece of paper. Then when the map on-screen is covered with units a player could glance at the paper map for planning. If this couldn't go in the box it wouuld be nice if the program had a simple way to print map segments on 8.5 x 11" paper, say at 50%.

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Post #: 622
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/7/2006 9:06:15 PM   
Froonp


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Status: offline 		First, do not forget that the MWiF map I posted is an edited map, it is not the real MWiF Map. For example, the China map do not yet have the coastlines in the game. I only did this both to see if I was able to do, and also to make the map prettier.
quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

I've been looking at the China maps some and I have a few questions: will the hex-lines around islands be visible? It might seem cool looking to shade in the water the way it is done, but you need to see hex-lines to know which islands are separate hexes, and which hexes have all-sea hexsides and are thus invadable.

Yes.
See the accompanying screenshot of the REAL MWiF Map.

quote:

I'm assuming a great advantage of the computer map is that the start lines can be turned on and off.

The start lines are not shown on the REAL MWiF Map. This is unnecessary, because you can toggle flags in each hex who show who control it.

quote:

(...)

If MWiF comes in a box over the counter, a great play aid would be to have the map already printed on a separate piece of paper. Then when the map on-screen is covered with units a player could glance at the paper map for planning. If this couldn't go in the box it wouuld be nice if the program had a simple way to print map segments on 8.5 x 11" paper, say at 50%.

Yes, a way to print bits of the Map would be GREATLY appreciated !!!




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Post #: 623
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/7/2006 10:03:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
If MWiF comes in a box over the counter, a great play aid would be to have the map already printed on a separate piece of paper. Then when the map on-screen is covered with units a player could glance at the paper map for planning. If this couldn't go in the box it wouuld be nice if the program had a simple way to print map segments on 8.5 x 11" paper, say at 50%.


The map is gigantic. An earlier query along these lines led to the fact that the whole MWIF map of the earth (using normal sized board game hexes) would be a cylinder roughly 7 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. Placed in your living room, it would be quite the conversation piece - and your wife's divorce attorney would find it of use too.

A simple toggle button removes all the units from the map so you can examine underlynig terrain at your leisure (the joys of computers).

Printing is a difficult thing to code since it requires the software to support every type of printer ever created. There are operating system and printer protocol issues too.

I am going to leave it to the player to do screen captures and print screens on his own - it will not be part of MWIF.

By the way, I did a screen capture of the map at zoom level 4 which I use as my screen wallpaper.

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Post #: 624
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/7/2006 10:26:44 PM   
trees trees

 

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Status: offline 		that map looks great there in Denmark.

If it comes out in a box I hope a color map, maybe two-sided at 25 or 50% could be one of the player aids, that would still alleviate so much staring at the computer screen even without units on the map. (This would help new players a fair amount I think. After a few games of WiF you know the western front terrain without even looking at it.) If it doesn't come in a box could we get the map as a file to print on our own? Screen shots are complicated to work with too.


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Post #: 625
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/7/2006 10:39:28 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

that map looks great there in Denmark.

Here is another shot. Steve allowed us for 2 shots per version.
Here is Poland, 2nd impulse of S/O 39, version 0.0.1.3.

On this shot you can see the flags I spoke about.
The ones who are half white are flags for Minor countries. It is the flag of the controling major power.




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Post #: 626
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/8/2006 12:11:19 AM   
Peter Stauffenberg


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Status: offline 		A nice map of Denmark and southern Sweden indeed.

But I noticed a little spelling mistake on the Danish coastal cruiser (CA) "Niels Juel". On the MWIF counter it's wrongly spelled "Niels Iuel". That is not correct. The first letter in
the surname is J.

Look at this WEB site for more info about Niels Juel (and a lot of other naval vessels).

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/danish_navy.htm

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Post #: 627
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/8/2006 1:19:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

A nice map of Denmark and southern Sweden indeed.

But I noticed a little spelling mistake on the Danish coastal cruiser (CA) "Niels Juel". On the MWIF counter it's wrongly spelled "Niels Iuel". That is not correct. The first letter in
the surname is J.

Look at this WEB site for more info about Niels Juel (and a lot of other naval vessels).

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/danish_navy.htm

Thanks.

I'll fix.

Players will be able to edit unit names too - either permanently in the data file or dynamically during game play.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 628
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/8/2006 1:05:42 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

A nice map of Denmark and southern Sweden indeed.

But I noticed a little spelling mistake on the Danish coastal cruiser (CA) "Niels Juel". On the MWIF counter it's wrongly spelled "Niels Iuel". That is not correct. The first letter in
the surname is J.

Look at this WEB site for more info about Niels Juel (and a lot of other naval vessels).

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/danish_navy.htm

Thanks.

I'll fix.

Players will be able to edit unit names too - either permanently in the data file or dynamically during game play.


I'm just glad to help.

Is there any possibility to maybe post screenshots of the different counters for
proofreading? I guess some of us reading these threads would then be able to
detect spelling errors etc. on the different counters. I guess you have playtesters
already for MWIF beta, but proofreading is a tedious work and the more eyes the
better.

It could be a good idea to start with named units (HQ's, naval units and airplanes).
You have already posted a lot of nice aircraft and naval units for some major powers.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 629
RE: Maps for MWIF - 6/8/2006 8:45:53 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Thanks for the offer. I’ll keep it in mind.

Patrice has already gone over all the data for the units which includes a lot of stuff: unit type, nationality, year built, day sunk, etc.. Essentially, everything you might glean from a counter’s front and back. I have corrected all the mistakes that he found (about a hundred out of tens of thousands of datum).

I do not have a program for laying out all the units on the map. For the screen shots I post, I do that all by hand.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 630
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