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RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 9:05:20 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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Umm, it was my impression that MWiF is going to be a direct "export" of the boardgame (which has had 5+ editions now) to a PC game. The ruleset will be followed as close as reasonably possible.

Where you expecting 3d models/map like this?:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 571

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 9:29:13 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
I mean no disrespect to the people involved but I expected the graphics to be much higher standard than what has been shown.It looks like games from the early 90's.With such a well known name like W.I.F, I expected Matrix to really be on the ball in this area.

There are trade-offs. Some of the considerations are:

1 - What hardware does the player have? If you assume they are running a high end machine (3+ GHz CPU, 1 GB RAM, fast graphics card with a lot of memory) then you can display more detail.

2 - Map size. If your entire map consists only of Europe, then the memory required for the map is much smaller. Or if you are limiting play to the Pacific, where almost everything is ocean, then the requirements for graphics processing speed is substantially reduced.

3 - Zoom. If you restrict zoom to a small area at a time (magnifying glass effect), then the memory and processing speed demands of the program are much less.

MWIF is designed:

1 - to be playable by players with less than state of the art hardware. The minimum requirement for the screen is 1024 by 768 resolution.

2 - to cover the entire world (360 hexes by 195 hexes)

3 - to provide 8 levels of zoom so the player can obtain: different views of the battlefield (high levels of zoom) and theater of operations (medium levels of zoom), or a continent perspective (lowest levels of zoom).

==============

Though it would be nice to do a loving bitmap for each hex, there are 4 major difficulties in achieving that: memory requirements, screen refresh speed, reducing map distortion when zoomed out, and the labor to draw them. There are 70,200 hexes in MWIF and roughly 60% have land of one type or another. That is 40,000+ individual hex bitmaps if you draw each of them as unique. We have elected to go with doing the coastlines in detail, which gives us only 5000+ individual bitmaps to draw. The river/lake overlays add 7000+ more. The 5000+ coastal bitmaps require over 240 MB of memory. I am doing tricks with the code to reduce the 7000+ river/lake bitmaps to under 50 MB. The units make additonal demands for bitmap storage (3000+ counters).

Basically, MWIF is a monster map and rendering it on a 17 inch screen so that players can play the game is non-trivial. As it is, we are pushing the limits of the hardware more than I would like. I worry about the players with lower end systems having to modify how they play the game because of the speed of screen refresh.

If the market for wargames were as fierce as it is for first-person shooters, then perhaps we could aim for the high end of the market and force players to upgrade their systems if they want to play the game. Sadly(?) that is not the state of the world. And anyway, a person's lust for more and better (I am no exception) is unquenchable.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 572

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 9:34:35 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Umm, it was my impression that MWiF is going to be a direct "export" of the boardgame (which has had 5+ editions now) to a PC game. The ruleset will be followed as close as reasonably possible.

Where you expecting 3d models/map like this?:

Your picture reminded me, how about stacking in a hex? Some ports in MWIF routinely hold over 20 naval units. The limits on land units are 3 per hex, plus up to 3 air units, plus the afore mentioned limitless naval units. For example, Leningrad when under seige.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 573

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 9:51:37 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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quote:

Your picture reminded me, how about stacking in a hex? Some ports in MWIF routinely hold over 20 naval units. The limits on land units are 3 per hex, plus up to 3 air units, plus the afore mentioned limitless naval units. For example, Leningrad when under seige.

*nods* I got this screenshot of (SSI's?) Panzer General 3D to address the same poster you did. In PzGen3D, there is no stacking. One ground and one air unit per hex only, if I recall correctly...

If you were to try to do the same graphics for MWiF, then I guess you use reduced sized 3d models to make room for the additional stuff in the hex up to a certain limit. After that, use a generic "overflow" model, than have the hex contents displayed in another window.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 574

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 11:07:31 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

Your picture reminded me, how about stacking in a hex? Some ports in MWIF routinely hold over 20 naval units. The limits on land units are 3 per hex, plus up to 3 air units, plus the afore mentioned limitless naval units. For example, Leningrad when under seige.

*nods* I got this screenshot of (SSI's?) Panzer General 3D to address the same poster you did. In PzGen3D, there is no stacking. One ground and one air unit per hex only, if I recall correctly...

If you were to try to do the same graphics for MWiF, then I guess you use reduced sized 3d models to make room for the additional stuff in the hex up to a certain limit. After that, use a generic "overflow" model, than have the hex contents displayed in another window.

I own a copy of that game. Besides the fact that it was unplayable because of bugs that crashed the system, I found determining the location of the air units on the map quite difficult to determine.

Back in July and August of last year, when I started work on MWIF, I posed the question to the forum members as to how to render the counters. The use of 3d models was discussed then. Finally, the consensus was that if I could get the counters to look as good as the cardboard ones, the players would be very happy. Ecstatic? No. Very happy? Yes.

The forum members really wanted to maintain the look of WIF FE too. That has evolved quite a bit, but clearly the current map's graphics are direct descendents from the WIF FE graphics.

An even more important design considerations than fulfilling the desire of current players of WIF to keep the map graphics comparable to WIF FE, were the items I listed in an earlier post today: hardware constraints.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 575

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 11:40:26 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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Hehe! Your preaching to the choir! (in other words, I was already converted long ago.) I'm on your side on this one sir!

I hope you dont think I was asking for 3d models! I was showing ASHERY76 that shot, and asking him if that type of graphics was his hopes...

Note to self: I gotta work on my communications skills...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 576

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/7/2006 11:44:48 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Hehe! Your preaching to the choir! (in other words, I was already converted long ago.) I'm on your side on this one sir!

I hope you dont think I was asking for 3d models! I was showing ASHERY76 that shot, and asking him if that type of graphics was his hopes...

Note to self: I gotta work on my communications skills...

I understood you perfectly well.

My reply to you was more an addendum to my post to Ashery.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 577

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 1:26:01 AM

TheDishwasher

Posts: 16
Joined: 2/22/2006
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Why are graphics so important with a game like WiF? To me, a decent, full and easy to use interface and good game mechanics are far more important.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 578

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 1:38:12 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Where you expecting 3d models/map like this?:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!
If MWiF was proposed to be this way, I would not be interested.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 579

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 2:08:06 AM

mlees

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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quote:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!
If MWiF was proposed to be this way, I would not be interested.

Hehe! I remember liking it when it came out. *shrugs* Now, of course, technology has moved beyond it.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 580

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 2:28:37 AM

JagdFlanker

Posts: 689
Joined: 7/26/2003
From: Halifax, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Where you expecting 3d models/map like this?:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!
If MWiF was proposed to be this way, I would not be interested.

it's a direct game conversion made by people who truly love the original "acre of table" game! had you played the original game with the dice in your hands you would have the complete opposite opinion! to each his own...

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 581

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 2:33:36 AM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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quote:

it's a direct game conversion made by people who truly love the original "acre of table" game! had you played the original game with the dice in your hands you would have the complete opposite opinion! to each his own...

Ok. Wait. Slow down everbody! I own a copy of this boardgame! I am not advocating a 3d version! *scratches head*

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 582

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 10:26:41 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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At a guess most people that play this wargame would be 30 and over.

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Post #: 583

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 10:31:41 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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i want it all myself it is 2006 after all..

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Post #: 584

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/8/2006 10:53:56 PM

JagdFlanker

Posts: 689
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From: Halifax, Canada
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sorry - i was talkin' to the guy directly trashing the work that has already been done. for what it's supposed to accomplish i think it looks fantastic! why would somebody waste their time writing that what mr OKeets and co. have done so far is a joke? it's just not very nice, that's all! i say keep up the great work so far!

(in reply to tigercub)

Post #: 585

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 12:04:14 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader
sorry - i was talkin' to the guy directly trashing the work that has already been done. for what it's supposed to accomplish i think it looks fantastic! why would somebody waste their time writing that what mr OKeets and co. have done so far is a joke? it's just not very nice, that's all! i say keep up the great work so far!

I'm not sure of what you're talking about, so let me make my own things clear (I'm not native English speaking so sometime I do not get the sentences right) :

The "joke counters" and "ugly maps" I talked about in post #579 are the 3-D counters & 3-D map shown on the picture in post #571. I was not talking about the counters and maps of MWiF. I for one was not trashing the work already done on MWiF.

Anyway, it is ASHBERY76 right to dislike the maps & counters of MWiF as they are now (March 2006), and he expressed his opinion in a most polite & respectable way (post #570). This is a good thing.

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 586

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 12:17:53 AM

JagdFlanker

Posts: 689
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From: Halifax, Canada
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i was replying to the:

quote:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!

comment only. mr OKeets is nice enough to do this on his own personal spare time for our benefit and i just found that comment to be a little strong - but it can be forgiven if you are not familier with the language! sorry for the confusion!

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 587

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 12:26:11 AM

Caranorn

Posts: 424
Joined: 8/31/2001
From: Luxembourg
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i was replying to the:

quote:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!

comment only. mr OKeets is nice enough to do this on his own personal spare time for our benefit and i just found that comment to be a little strong - but it can be forgiven if you are not familier with the language! sorry for the confusion!

Patrice (Froonp), a WiF veteran, owner of one of a major WiF internet resource webpage, CWiF beta tester and now MWiF beta tester made that comment about the Panzer general 3D map and counters;-).

That should clear up the confusion I expect.

P.S.: Another non native english speaker:-).

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Marc aka Caran... ministerialis

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 588

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 12:26:51 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader
i was replying to the:

quote:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!

comment only. mr OKeets is nice enough to do this on his own personal spare time for our benefit and i just found that comment to be a little strong - but it can be forgiven if you are not familier with the language! sorry for the confusion!

Please, reread my previous post (#586), I was not refering to Mr OKeets map when I was writing this.

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 589

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 1:16:35 AM

Peter Stauffenberg

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Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i was replying to the:

quote:

This 3D map is ugly, and those 3D "counters" are a joke !!!

comment only. mr OKeets is nice enough to do this on his own personal spare time for our benefit and i just found that comment to be a little strong - but it can be forgiven if you are not familier with the language! sorry for the confusion!

I interpreted it that FroonP was talking about the 3D map and 3D counters of the game "Panzer General" from SPI to be ugly and a joke. As a reply to the guy who wondered why MWIF didn't look more "flashy". FroonP showed the alternative to the MWIF graphics. Not an improvement at all. "Flashy" graphics like Panzer General won't work at all for a game like WIF. There is so much information that must be shown for each counter that changing them to symbols similar to Panzer General would be a major mistake.

The people who will buy MWIF are mainly WIF players who already own or have played WIF the board game many times. And MWIF is recreating the graphics from WIF the board game in a very very nice way. It's as close to the real WIF board game we can come with the advantages of being a computer game (showing different statuses, calculation odds, checking the rules etc.).

I interpreted the message from FroonP that if MWIF wasn't a true conversion of WIF the board game (with graphics too) then he was NOT interesting in playing it. I think a lot of other people feel the same.

Kudos to Shannon OKeets and his MWIF development team for creating a very very nice conversion of WIF the board game. I think they are creating exactly what the WIF players want. A 99.9% true conversion of the board game. It looks even better that we all hoped for before the project started. The map and counters are detailed and just beautiful. Just as the WIF board game map and counters.

I have an impression that the first guy (who wondered about the graphics of MWIF) is NOT a board wargames player. Anyone who has seen board wargames with maps and counters would be very impressed how good the MWIF map and counters look like. And we haven't even see the bulk of the new aircraft and naval units yet.

So I think most of us agree that the work so far for MWIF is simply amazing. I can't wait to buy the final game later this year.

< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 4/9/2006 1:20:25 AM >

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 590

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/9/2006 2:28:31 AM

JagdFlanker

Posts: 689
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From: Halifax, Canada
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my sincere apoligies - i misinterpreted! i'l kindly kepp my mouth shut!

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 591

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/11/2006 12:22:16 AM

Ballista

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It will be better than the print game without a doubt- for the fact that the cat/kids/wife can't toss the pieces all over the room alone it is a winner, much less for all that it brings to the "table".... :)

(in reply to JagdFlanker)

Post #: 592

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/11/2006 3:02:05 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline

or spill the coke all over the map!

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Post #: 593

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/18/2006 10:14:49 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Here are some screen shots for the "almost final" map graphics. This one shows the new graphics for the alpine hexsides.
The green hexside borders indicate weather zones - I intend to make them a toggle so they can be removed whenever the player wishes. I looked at making the thickness of the country borders thinner but that made them too vague.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to tigercub)

Post #: 594

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/18/2006 10:18:07 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Here are the final lake and river hexsides. I thickened the lake border outline and made the rivers solid blue. This is so they do not distort at lower levels of zoom. What you see here is at maximum level of zoom.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 595

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/18/2006 10:21:50 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Here I have zoomed out a little so you can see what the alpine hexsides, rivers and lakes at zoom level 6. They all are holding up well (no distortion).

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 596

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/18/2006 10:27:01 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Last screen shot in this series.
I am very happy with the rivers here (zoom level 4). When we previously tried two tone rivers (light blue interior and dark blue outline) this zooom level was a disaster.

I got the first pass on the fort hexsides today from the graphics artist. It was a very good start. We are going for 5 pointed stars embedded in a fortification line (ala Vauben). I should have pictures of them for you to look at in a week (or so).

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 597

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/18/2006 10:56:52 PM

YohanTM2

Posts: 1143
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From: Toronto
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As the first poster after you posted these let me just saying F#$%ing killer!

Great work.

Rob

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 598

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 12:19:56 AM

lomyrin

Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

I like the improved river and lake outlines and the alpine hex sides are a great change from the past depictions.

The weather zone lines might be a bit more visible though. Making them clickable on/off is a good idea too.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 599

RE: Maps for MWIF - 4/19/2006 1:04:17 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Here are the final lake and river hexsides. I thickened the lake border outline and made the rivers solid blue. This is so they do not distort at lower levels of zoom. What you see here is at maximum level of zoom.

Look splendid !!!!!