RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 11:37:20 PM

Nikademus

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I do have a very high inspirational leadership rating.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 6:39:29 AM

VikingNo2

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Even if I attack from different directions they all get hit. Maybe its just a bad game for me or something. Enemy tank is fired on with one of my tanks two misses two plunks, then I hit the tank with MG fire, again 50/50 hits and misses then I attack the tank from three direction with infantry squads , it hits all three as soon as they move beside the tank. Inflicting casualties causing two squads the run. The tank was button before this all began, the enemy tank had a clear line of sight to my tank and MG but did not return fire

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 6:54:50 AM

steelpanther

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I havent had a whole lot of problems. You also have to remember that in actuallity if your units are 2 hexes away before moving next to the tank they are 100 meters away. Thats a long way for infantry to sneak up on anything. I like to let the tanks come to me and them assault them. In combat especially in the city troops did not run up to the tanks but let the tanks come to them <20 yards and then spring the assault. It would look kinda funny for a soviet infantry troop to run 100 meters with a lit molotov. LOL

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 4:59:39 PM

Alby

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I hate to admit it...but I think the spotting MAY have been tweaked a little too high.
I ran a test and surrounded a soviet tank on all 4 sides with the infrantry all one hex away(meaning an open hex between the INF and the Tank).
this was in forest.
each time I moved towards the tank, it wheeled and fired...even when I appraoched from behind...
I tried the same thing with an SU57..I first fired an MG34 all shots available at it to try and supress it..then moved infrantry in...same thing, it wheeled and fired at them all...
I will do more testing.
If this happens with vehicles with no turret, then I would say it needs a tweak..
more info later....

I wish Mr. Wood would chime in here.

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Post #: 34

RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 5:50:27 PM

Alby

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well i just ran a number of tests
with searching(spotting) set to 60.... in a forest setting

same thing everytime...I placed 4 SS infrantry squads on all 4 sides of first a T34(not a guard unit, but regular experience unit), same results...it spins and fires each time you move towards it.
then tried it with a non turreted SU 76j

same thing it spun around and fired each time I moved towards it...
even with no suppression, this is a bit much I feel.
Hate to say it...the spotting routine is tweaked too high in my opinion..

not complaining...this is just my observation, everything else in 8.4 looks great.

I am currently running a poll at the SPWAW Depot, for one week, to get some other opinions.
http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6208&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

THIS IS ALL ASSUMING THE WAY TANKS AND SUCH REACT, IS IN THE SPOTTING ROUTINE

< Message edited by Alby -- 7/22/2005 1:44:44 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 7:16:08 PM

chief

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Steelpanther: You spoke of waiting for tanks to come to you in city fighting, That's a good move except NOW (8.4) they have an uncanny ability to spot your UNMOVING, UNFIRING, troops from 2 hexes away even when your in a building....as a said on another post...tank sees troops, tank shoots, troops go bye-bye birdie. Me thinks they have (per Alby) tweaked it much too high.

< Message edited by chief -- 7/21/2005 7:17:26 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/21/2005 7:28:59 PM

Alby

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Some more testing.....
Again this is all in a forest, spotting set at 60

This time I used 2 man scout teams which should be much harder to spot..

of the 4 units that were used to surround the vehicle, 3 were fired at by the SU76j everytime they moved towards the tank.

so using smaller size units reduces it SLIGHTLY
3 out of 4 though still..

BTW the experience level of the SU was 60, the T34 was 57

the scouts ranged from 63 to 76, same for the SS units

I also tried with snipers...the tank did not fire.

< Message edited by Alby -- 7/21/2005 8:07:14 PM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 12:28:12 AM

KG Erwin

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One thing I've noticed is that during the AI turn, sometimes my troops will close assault and destroy an enemy AFV. However, during MY turn, invariably a close assault order I issue is ignored. The only thing I can do is use direct fire with either a hand grenade or a ATR/bazooka IF my unit has one.

In any case, it appears that close assaulting an unsuppressed AFV is tantamount to suicide.

We gotta take the good with the bad--how many times in past versions did we see crewmen & snipers destroying tanks by close assault? This was plainly unacceptable. In correcting this problem, there were side-effects that are now being noticed. I don't think we can have it both ways.

This was the intended effect--now, tank-killing is for units dedicated to that purpose, and equipped with the weapons to accomplish the job, NOT for some crazed crewman coming at your vehicle with a pistol in hand or waving a samurai sword.

Does it make sense now?

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Post #: 38

RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 12:34:17 AM

Alby

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Glenn....Just to clarify....the infrantry is not even getting a chance to assualt the tank the way it is now....not that the assualts are failing.
they get fired upon before they can do anything...
THIS IS BASED ON HUMAN PLAYER ASSUALTING AI
test test test....

I think it just got tweaked a little too high...should be an easy fix.
so far the poll is showing 70% say its too high, 30% say no

but only 10 votes so far

< Message edited by Alby -- 7/22/2005 12:45:28 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 1:34:47 AM

KG Erwin

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That's fine, Alby. I hope that Michael Wood will chime in soon with his response--he's been very active in the forums lately (which is appreciated, but uncharacteristic of him).

For right now, the best bet is to lower the "searching" percentage in the Preferences--Flashfyre suggested 40%.

For me, personally, it isn't that big of an issue-- in the Pacific, one rarely encounters Japanese tanks, and they are usually rendered into junk very quickly by bazookas or US tanks. Conversely, I know better than to send a tank into no-man's land without supporting infantry being stacked with them.

Of course, it becomes a much larger issue when fighting in the other theaters of war.

Once Michael becomes aware of these issues, I would hope he'd do a few tweaks and issue a corrected mech.exe.

Michael, are you listening?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 1:43:33 AM

Alby

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40% for spotting???...hehehe
that right there should indicate somethings not right...
H2H is default 60% I think and it is hard as hell to find units in it alot of the time.

< Message edited by Alby -- 7/22/2005 2:53:01 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 1:49:44 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

40% for spotting???...hehehe
that right there should indicate something nots right...
H2H is default 60% I think and it is hard as hell to find units in it alot of the time.

Well, Alby, who helped test 8.4 (officially and unofficially) before this went to release?

Personally, I just wanted the chance to kill off the early-war ATRs before my light tanks got shredded--the close-assaults weren't even a consideration--did anyone else think of it?

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/22/2005 1:52:15 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 2:15:11 AM

Alby

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It didnt even cross my mind...

dumbass me I reckon!!

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 2:52:03 AM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

Once consensus is reached, am sure programmer would be willing to adjust.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

That's fine, Alby. I hope that Michael Wood will chime in soon with his response--he's been very active in the forums lately (which is appreciated, but uncharacteristic of him).

For right now, the best bet is to lower the "searching" percentage in the Preferences--Flashfyre suggested 40%.

For me, personally, it isn't that big of an issue-- in the Pacific, one rarely encounters Japanese tanks, and they are usually rendered into junk very quickly by bazookas or US tanks. Conversely, I know better than to send a tank into no-man's land without supporting infantry being stacked with them.

Of course, it becomes a much larger issue when fighting in the other theaters of war.

Once Michael becomes aware of these issues, I would hope he'd do a few tweaks and issue a corrected mech.exe.

Michael, are you listening?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 2:56:23 AM

Alby

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But YOU are the programmer.....

do you mean, you?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 3:05:35 AM

KG Erwin

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Alby, I think that means that Michael will go with what the majority thinks--I can't post polls HERE, so let the Depot poll settle it.

For the record, I would vote that the spotting levels be adjusted SLIGHTLY, if at all (the LAST thing I want is a return to snipers killing tanks--make sure the Depot guys are aware that this is why it was done in the first place).

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Post #: 46

RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 3:21:32 AM

Alby

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I figured that was what he meant...I was just razzin him....

I cant vote twice or I would cast a vote for ya!

Glenn, I'm not sure the spotting routine has anything to do with snipers assualting tanks does it??
I could be wrong but.....

I dont know how or what was done to fix the crews and snipers assualting tanks....
wasnt this done sometime back?

here is another player's point of view that must also be thought out...it makes sense as well...

"I've always been of the opinion that vehicles had too hard of a time spotting infantry/machine guns/etc. Many times I have been IN THE SAME HEX with a soft target like this and not been able to spot. You could argue that a non-moving squad in a building should never be visible unless the tank actually crashes into it. This is going too far, unless the squad is "in cover" I would say the tank should have at least a chance from 2 hexes to spot.

On the other side, it should be very difficult for infantry to sneak up on an unsuppressed vehicle. I always assume anything less than "buttoned" means the commander is standing up with his head at least outside the hatch scanning the surrounding area, plus the driver and gunner looking through slits. Very difficult i would say to approach such a vehicle undetected close enough to use grenades/satchel charges. I have had much success close assaulting in 8.4 once I put some suppression on the tank"

and still another player's views.

"A moving infantry unit should almost always be seen. Maybe too much spinning and firing, but that has always been a SP problem. SUPER SPINNING STUGS!!!"

< Message edited by Alby -- 7/22/2005 5:08:38 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 7:53:35 AM

KG Erwin

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Alby, I'll really only be able to give my impressions in game play, not test battles. I'm starting a new campaign, with AARs to follow. My new core force's commander's name is Latka Lavitov--he is a Russian, from Caspidor (which sank into the Caspian Sea). I intend for this one to be the test.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 6:25:57 PM

soldier

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Tanks must be held to some account when driving through poor terrain, or the'll just ride roughshod over troops throughout the board. Should tanks be penalized for driving into what was considered by military doctrine of the time, to be poor armour terrain (i think so) and if so how ?
At the moment terrain, experience and cautious approach play no part. It is almost totally determined by being adjacent. Moving and assaulting tanks is very high risk strategy and it was nearly always unsuccessful in old versions but at least it gave infantry some advantage in the forests and made other attacks possible.
Picture this scene
Snow is falling on the conscript tankers from the soviet army in the Karelian Isthmus in 39. The russians are cut off, hungry, morale is low. Its getting dark. They have no intel on finnish intentions. They have dug their tanks in as defensive pillboxes. They dont even know their being watched. They are surrounded. Finnish troops are camoflaged in white, they know the area. They have morale,terrain,experience and weather on their side. Carefully the order to crawl out in cover is given and attach AT mines or molotovs.
It should be possible. Admittadly this is an extreme example but by one method or another the finns knocked out 239 tanks across the Isthmus without tanks of their own, proper AT weapons or much artillery...239 tanks ! so it can be done and was. Its true that on some occaisions they ran when confronted by tanks, such are the fortunes of war.
At the moment youd be hard pressed to knock out 10. So i dont think tanks should always automatically spot and destroy creeping troops. They do now and still give very tough account when buttoned
As for snipers assaulting armour. They did before and still do now, no change there.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/22/2005 6:41:23 PM

Alby

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Good post.

I have never tried to assualt a tank with a sniper...it just never crossed my mind

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/23/2005 6:22:23 AM

KG Erwin

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I really don't know what to think---we have infantry fans vs armor fans, and I count myself firmly in the infantry camp. What we have done is put the tanks in their place--it has been proven that a tank is worthless by itself-- when accompanied by infantry, it becomes a vital part of the concept of combined arms.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/23/2005 4:17:43 PM

Possusoturi

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Greetings.
I agree that test results show that something is out of balance. However, as a part of my campaing as soviets, I can confirm that my bt-7m tanks had no business near finnish positions, being manned by finnish ski infantry(36 and 37). I had visibility 8, snowstorm, and pretty much all of my units were blind and and finns seemed to spot my troops 90% of time first, even if I had remained stationary for awhile. Terrain was heavily forested, so this was scenario of very low exp tanks versus high exp infantry in poor visibility. This would indicate that experience is still relevant. Combining this with my own training in military, we noticed that at least t-72 with improved optics and other spotting equipment was pretty damn blind even where they knew we were coming.

In short:armored vehicles which are buttoned are too well aware of their surroundings, but minor adjustements should correct this.

I really like to ramble...

Thanks for your patience.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/24/2005 1:41:33 AM

baevans99

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Playing the German Long Campaign atm. Finished two battles vs Poland and near the end of my first battle vs Britian. All three battles have been Advances so the enemy has been in cover waiting for me for the most part.

My main battle tanks (PZ III & IV) almost never spot infantry until directly next to them and risking an infantry assault. My recon tanks are better at spotting and spot the infantry a little less than half the time from 2 hexes away. Even my recon tanks get assaulted by hidden infantry quite often, though. This seems about right, tanks should have a hard time spotting infantry that is in cover.

On the otherhand, my infantry advancing slowly is quickly spotted by the enemy infantry and even my recon squads rarely see the enemy until 2-3 hexes away. Those poor recon squads die quickly when that close to the enemy main line of defense. The Germans should have an EXP advantage over their early war opponents, seems infantry should have an easier time spotting them.

I will agree that infantry has a very hard time advancing upon a tank and launching an assault. So far I have run across 4x Matilda II and 2x Matilda I in my British battle. I quickly learned that I needed to shoot the Matilda's ALOT before even attempting to move my infantry into assault postion. This seems about right, too. Unless the tank is buttoned up and highly suppressed the infantry should be spotted and taken under fire. Most of my PZ IV are almost out of AP ammo and I have only eliminated 2x of the Matilda II's and the Main Firing Optics on a 3rd. Just hope I have enough AP to take out the counter attacking Vickers and Crusiers while supressing the remaining Matilda's.

Mental Note: Upgrade a section of PAK 37mm to 88's ASAP.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/24/2005 2:55:33 AM

Goblin

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I agree with most. Tanks spot infantry too easily. Went back to my 8.3 install.

Goblin

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/24/2005 4:34:01 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I agree with most. Tanks spot infantry too easily. Went back to my 8.3 install.

Goblin

Goblin, you are giving up all of the positive changes of 8.4 because of one issue?

We should ALL be thankful that Michael decided to revisit the code and correct some long-standing issues. He has also stated that he is willing to make adjustments if the community is in agreement.

For the record, I will agree that the sighting code needs to be tweaked.

The Depot poll is overwhelmingly in favor of the sighting adjustment, and I agree with the majority.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/24/2005 4:53:47 AM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/24/2005 7:10:46 AM

Goblin

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Its a game killer for me (remember, I'm an infantry lover, even before a Kat lover). I also was not overly thrilled with the experience changes. I believe they could have been slightly higher. The passenger casualties are freakin' awesome, and as soon as Mike sends me his address, I am sending him my firstborn kid for doing it...

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/25/2005 8:43:53 PM

Alby

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So far the overwhelming majority are saying it is too high...
85% to 14% so far...but Flashfyre brought up something that we need Mike Wood to possibly give us the definate answer to...

Flashfyre said....
"Folks, I think we are mixing up different aspects of this problem:

1. The Spotting issue.
2. The Searching issue.
3. The Op Fire issue.
4. The tank-killing issue.

The Spotting result is determined by a number of factors and modifiers, such as Experience, Suppression, Visibility, Terrain, Movement, type of unit, and so on. All these come together to provide a basic "chance to see" an enemy unit. This is the area Mike seems to have made his change in.

The Searching setting, as I understand it, applies its percentage to the basic "chance to see". At 100%, a unit spots at its normal base. Over 100% adds a bonus to the spot chance, making it easier to see units. Under 100% subtracts from the base chance by an amount equal to the difference between the Searching setting and 100%; at 60% the base chance is reduced by 40% of its value. EG: Spot chance is 82; at 60% Searching, the chance is reduced to 49.2%, due to a loss of 32.8 points. I don't believe any change has been made to this routine.

The Op Fire issue seems to be the real culprit here. A unit can spot an enemy unit and not fire at it; usually because the target is out of range or the spotting unit has no weapon capable of engaging it. Op Fire occurs because an enemy unit performs one of the "trigger" actions, like moving in LOS, loading/unloading in LOS, firing at a unit, etc. In the case of tanks, they seem to be taking their OP Fire shots at everything that moves within 2 hexes, because they 1) have spotted the units and 2) are armed with weapons that can engage them. I can understand a tank "seeing" a moving enemy foot unit within 100 meters of it, but to wheel and fire at more than one does seem to be extremely unlikely. There is also the point of modifiers to any Op Fire because of movement; are any of them being applied to these tanks for "moving" multiple times in the same hex?

With regards to tank-killing, I don't think the actual assault/attack routines have been affected, only the possible modifiers to a unit's base chance to perform an assault. As stated in the manual, Infantry Panic was introduced to represent the chance of foot units who do not possess weapons capable of effectively destroying a tank retreating in the face of an armoured attack, as was typical in the early years of the conflict. The revised Experience/Morale ratings certainly have something to do with this, but not the actual chance to make the assault.

We all have noticed that tanks now spot moving infantry within 2 hexes regardless of Size or type, and they also seem to spot stationary infantry in buildings within 2 hexes. We also have noticed that these same tanks will perform Op Fire against any and all of these units, even spinning in place to engage multiple units from different directions. These issues have appeared apparently as a result of the revised Spotting routine Mike wrote for increasing the chance of Spotting at 0-1 hexes. I think the real question is: Is this a Spotting problem, or an Op Fire problem, and how can it be fixed?

a. If it is a Spotting problem, can a fix be done that reduces the tank Op Fire issue, and still retain some increase in close-range spotting?

b. If it is an Op Fire problem, can a fix be done that retains the Spotting increase, but changes the op fire routine for vehicles to reduce the number or frequency of these op fire attacks?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/25/2005 9:10:55 PM

KNomad

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Well, I thought the sighting/searching routine was fine in v8.3. In order to spot infantry, recon ability or dedicated search efforts by squadies was necessary. Seemed fine to me.

Tanks are supposed to have the worst sighting ability, even more so when suppressed (buttoned).

IMO - tanks needed more incentive to use OP Fire against other tanks. Too often I'd have a tank that hadn't moved, with effective weaponry, sit there and be fired at without firing a shot in return.

Furthermore, I don't thnk AFVs should be able to spin at all during opfire. Turreted vehicles should move the turret, turretless one's had better hope they have thier front to the enemy.

Regarding infantry assaults vs armor - remove the assault ability from snipers and crews and the system was fine as it was.

And in reference to another topic, smoke is too pervasive and lasts too long. If smoke would disipate over a few turns (effected by weather conditions) than the "inpenetrable wall of smoke" syndrom would be less severe. Area fire through smoke would be a welcome addition however.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. They start way too easily and do not have enough of a detrimental effect on troops. Once in a great while will a squad actually get enough suppression from the flames to warrant abandoning the hex.

Also, crewed weapons, especially MGs, get suppressed way too easily. After their initial shots, they are quickly rendered combat ineffective.

Awright, just my two quatloo's.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/25/2005 9:19:37 PM

Nikademus

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With 8.3 I'd agree that some of the smaller INF weapons and AT guns were proving almost ridiculously hard to spot, though i'd rather have that then the old SP days when an AT gun was almost immediately spotted and then toasted. What was more frustrating though was that a spotted INF weapon would "rehide" on the next turn forcing the attacks to have to go through the whole process again of respotting the unit. (meanwhile it's plugging away at you.

Agree with the comments about turreted AFV's vs. non turreted. I've seen little difference between the two in the game. At most, a non-turreted AFV should only be allowed 1 spin per turn though maybe it shouldn't be allowed at all since that could be used to "game" the system (have an inf weapon force the AFV to 'spin' then pummel the flanks with AT Fire)

This should be the biggest differnence between them. (otherwise why not abandon tanks entirely in favor of self propelled guns/Jagdpanzers?)

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/25/2005 10:59:36 PM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

Only change made was in spotting procedure. An offensive value for the spotter and a defensive value for the target are generated. If the offensive is greater than the defensive, the target unit it spotted. Change was that at ranges zero to one, offensive defensive value was dramatically reduced. Will adjust, next patch.

Thanks for Input...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby
So far the overwhelming majority are saying it is too high...
85% to 14% so far...but Flashfyre brought up something that we need Mike Wood to possibly give us the definate answer to...

(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 60