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RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/4/2006 9:16:58 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

These are most important ones in fleet, and I see no reason to delete good medium submarines and put instead of them coastal submarines of little use.


I proposed that to my CHS manager - but was told to include the little ones.

I intend to add the medium subs for RHS. Maybe someday CHS will copy that.

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 31
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/4/2006 9:19:28 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Also better is to put into scenario destroyers which started the war here, than pack of escorts and minesweepers which arrived at the end of the war.


Here I respectfully disagree. I think you really must have some minesweepers, or else how do you sweep mines from your harbor? I think sub chasers are useful too - and these give the Russians radar! However, I hope to give you your cake and eat it too - you will get both if I can make it happen. For now I felt it wise to at least put the right classes in the database - then anyone can implement them with the editor.

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 32
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/4/2006 9:22:14 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

{EDIT: I see now that it's from Uboat.Net - but it's completely wrong!!!)


I note significant uncertainties at surprising points. A Russian source lists 91 subs in the Pacific on 23 June 1941, but the USNI study only could identify 85 of them! Many points were contradictory between German, Russian and other sources. So maybe you will see/have different data. But all the major references have Stalinets (sometimes spelled stalinetc) and I think it is pretty clear it is not "completely wrong" they existed. It appears they were the most successful class - if fairly old.


(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 33
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/4/2006 11:37:13 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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quote:

I have a professional study of the Soviet sub fleet. It has an ob for the start of the war - something like 21 June 1941 - and it lists one such vessel in the Pacific. I also have a submarine reference, and it shows Stalinets as a class - with almost identical data about the class. It is described as the best class available during the war - although it had some technical problems they were much fewer than any other Soviet class. If I remember right there were about 13 - but only one in the Pacific. It is the most important sub in the Pacific in operational terms for the Soviets. It has range, speed, and fair weapons. IF you regard a 5000 yard range torpedo as a weapon!


So again. I suppose that we are talking about S-class (series IX and IX bis). I am simply pointing out that this class letter was not taken from Stalinetz, because L-2 Stalinetz was ship of L-class not S-class. Letters in code names of ships were taken from name of first vessels of class (D - Dekabrist, L - Leninyets, P - Pravda, Shch - Shchuka, and later from its size (M - malutka = tiny, K - kryeyzerskaya = cruiser size and S - sryednaya = medium). My sources states that there were 7 (of 41 total built) ships of this class present in 1941 in Pacific: S-51(*), S-52, S-53, S-54(*), S-55(*), S-56(*) and S-57. Those marked with (*) left to Northern fleet in late 42.

quote:

This is often reported. It may be like Japanese ordnance - a "7 cm gun" is 72mm - etc. Rounded. See Naval Weapons of World War II. Also I have a scholarly study of all Soviet vessels from 1921 to 1937 - and Kirov dates from that period - so the gun is in the weapons chapter. It appears to be 181 mm - and that is what the naval museum in St Petersburg shows as well.


Maybe it was in reality closer in rounding to 181mm. But it still was a 180mm gun, just like the Scharnhorst 280mm's had in reality 283mm. Look at this - 180mm/57 B-1-P: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_71-57_m1932.htm

quote:

You have confused class name with ship name. Only two vessels of that class were completed - many others had laid down but the war got in the way. But one of these was in the Pacific - and I have her name (impossibly spelled but I have it anyway) - not the class name.


Well, Ognevoy class consisted of only one ship completed during the war : Ognevoy itself - for Black Sea Fleet. After the war 4 were completed for Baltic Fleet(Obraztsovy, Odaryonny, Otlichny,Otvazhny), another 2 for Black Sea (Opasny, Ozornoy) and 2 for Arctic (Osmotritelny, Otchotlivy). For Far East: none. Another 4 for Baltic were cancelled in 1941.
Could you give the spelling of this ship which you have on mind?

And at least I propose leaving coastal submarines, and put S-class instead.




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Post #: 34
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/6/2006 11:54:14 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Well, Ognevoy class consisted of only one ship completed during the war : Ognevoy itself - for Black Sea Fleet. After the war 4 were completed for Baltic Fleet(Obraztsovy, Odaryonny, Otlichny,Otvazhny), another 2 for Black Sea (Opasny, Ozornoy) and 2 for Arctic (Osmotritelny, Otchotlivy). For Far East: none. Another 4 for Baltic were cancelled in 1941.
Could you give the spelling of this ship which you have on mind?


Although I have become a PLAN (Chinese navy) guy, most of my life I was a Soviet Navy guy - I studied the history of that fleet because it was the most likely enemy fleet. So I know this class: "The first postwar Soviet standard destroyer design - 'Project 30bix' - the Skoryi class - was developed directly from the Ognevoi class."

"Only Ognevoi and Vnushitelnyi were completed and commissioned by the end of hostilities; 12 others were completed between 1945 and 1949. The hulls of two units were captured by the Germans at Nikolayev and scrapped, while a further seven were demolished after the war."

Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1922-1946, p. 332.


(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 35
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/6/2006 5:41:40 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
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From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		Ok... maybe you could have right... Nominnally 4 Far East Fleet ships (Vynoslivy, Vnushitelny, Vnimatelny, Vlastny) are listed as completed after the war "but one or two of them could been completed before 01.09.1945". Still not sure if they were combat ready before historical end of war. But they are listed as a "similliar or exact the same as" a Storozhevoy (7U) class.

Lipinski J. "Druga wojna swiatowa na morzu"(IIWW on sea) - dodatek(appendix) Wywerka Prekurat T. "Wykaz stanu flot wojennych panstw uczestniczacych w drugiej wojnie swiatowej" (Listing of State of Navies of Countries Taking Part in WWII)

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Post #: 36
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/6/2006 9:17:47 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		One thing that I have most distaste is the treatment of WitP for the August Storm operation

Nothing, no reinforcements at all.

In the August Storm scenario Soviet has

15 corps with AV 1000+
5 corps with AV between 800 and 600
5 ARM Corps with close 600 AV
20 Inf Divs with 340 AV

I know that the slots for new units are scarce, but have you thought something like adding a few devices called something like "August Storm Reinforcemts - Soviet Inf 45", "August Storm Reinforcemts - T34/85" ,etc that would only start getting reinforcements early 45 and give them to existing units so we could simulate the massive buildup for this operation.

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Post #: 37
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/6/2006 9:31:23 PM   
Nikademus


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Post #: 38
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 4:19:52 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

have you thought something like adding a few devices called something like "August Storm Reinforcemts - Soviet Inf 45", "August Storm Reinforcemts - T34/85" ,etc that would only start getting reinforcements early 45 and give them to existing units so we could simulate the massive buildup for this operation.


Well, no. I have not thought about this. For one thing, I do not study the Soviet land OB most of the time in WITP. I assumed it was correct. If it isn't - it should be fixed. But it may be difficult.

One thought is that we could create an August Storm mini-scenario that was completely correct if there are not enough slots to do it in the campaign game. Another is that we can create very large formations - this is very Russian anyway - and reduce slot requirements.


(in reply to Bliztk)
Post #: 39
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 5:10:59 PM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		There is a August Storm scenario in the game.

In CHS handsoff game, Soviet Union 18 Inf Divs of avg AV of 310

That`s 22,000 AV less than the WitP Scenario of August Storm.

My idea is to add several new devices so we could boost Soviet forces in the frametime to be avaliable to the August Storm Operation

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 40
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 7:19:13 PM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		Well, a new discovery.

Running a handsoff of CHS 1.06 suddenly the Russian Far East Divisions have changed to Corps, 19 Divisions have switched to corps totalling 20000 AV.

It seems a hardcoded thing, because the editor doesn´t show anything.

(in reply to Bliztk)
Post #: 41
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 8:20:38 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		The unit database is unique to each scenario. Since the Manchuria Scenario is limited to the Trans-Baikal Front and the Far East, there is no need for Chinese, Commonwealth, or US units. Therefore a more robust Soviet Ground OOB is present as was teh case in 45'.

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Post #: 42
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 8:30:06 PM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		I`m talking about a test I made. Not the August Storm Scenario

I ran a handsoff game of CHS 1.06 from start to 1/8/45. Several Soviet Divs became corps somewhere between 1/45 and 7/45 (when I checked). It seems a hardcoded thing.


(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 43
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 8:47:46 PM   
Bliztk


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Status: offline 		Done a fast test.

Pick CHS 1.06, change starting date to June/45, play two turns and in 6/3/45 several russian divisions become corps with assault value of 1100

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Post #: 44
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 10:11:07 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		I hope you guys realize that your returns ratio for effort put in wont be very balanced. I've played the scenario....several times and yes i enjoyed it....but it remains a very one sided short scenario. The Japanese side has no chance just as historical...outgunned and outmanned. The shock attack with pursuit feature allows the Russian armored unit to totally devestate the low exp Japanese units. The only "challenge" i suppose is seeing how fast you can get to Korea. I never shock attacked so many times in my life in any game

The only game impacting problem i ran into is that it 'can' be difficult to reach Korea before the game runs out but simply lengthening the scenario to help compensate for the land combat engine's weaknesses in simulating 'armor heavy' warfare is (was) the easiest solution. (that weakness being the transit time in non road hexes primarily)

The game's main problem in properly simulating the battle is that it can't represent the forces located in Mongolia as there's no logistical/road net on the map to support it.

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Post #: 45
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 10:15:44 PM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I hope you guys realize that your returns ratio for effort put in wont be very balanced. I've played the scenario....several times and yes i enjoyed it....but it remains a very one sided short scenario. The Japanese side has no chance just as historical...outgunned and outmanned. The shock attack with pursuit feature allows the Russian armored unit to totally devestate the low exp Japanese units. The only "challenge" i suppose is seeing how fast you can get to Korea. I never shock attacked so many times in my life in any game

The only game impacting problem i ran into is that it 'can' be difficult to reach Korea before the game runs out but simply lengthening the scenario to help compensate for the land combat engine's weaknesses in simulating 'armor heavy' warfare is (was) the easiest solution. (that weakness being the transit time in non road hexes primarily)

The game's main problem in properly simulating the battle is that it can't represent the forces located in Mongolia as there's no logistical/road net on the map to support it.


I agree, but as the allied player it can be fun to whip up on the AI and just play around with the soviet forces...

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Post #: 46
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 10:22:47 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Thats the thing though....its already a heap of fun. (if your the Russians!)

lol....ah fond memories of driving south...shock attack after shock attack....nothing can stand in my way.... BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

a PBEM or head to head player probably would think differently

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Post #: 47
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/7/2006 10:33:42 PM   
TheElf


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Status: offline 		Bliztk,
Can you list of Rifle Divisions that become Corps Strength? This is important database info if we are going to look at the Soviet OOB for CHS....

< Message edited by TheElf -- 1/8/2006 7:50:39 AM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/8/2006 5:23:40 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Can you list of Rifle Divisions that become Corps Strength? This is important database info if we are going to look at the Soviet OOB for CHS....


Yes, this could be VERY important, especially if it is hard coded, as we would need to leave the units in their slots, most likely (although that too could be tested).

Andrew

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 49
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/8/2006 5:49:36 AM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Can you list of Rifle Divisions that become Corps Strength? This is important database info if we are going to look at the Soviet OOB for CHS....


Yes, this could be VERY important, especially if it is hard coded, as we would need to leave the units in their slots, most likely (although that too could be tested).

Andrew


Yes, I am hoping Blizt can identify ANY unit that upgrades its TOE in 1/45'. Artillery Regiments are also good candidates because in the Manchurian scenario Database they are also represented in Division Strength. So are Mech brigades, and Motorized rifle Divisions. ANYHTING that might be hardcoded to expand when triggered by a certain date.

If we are to beef up the Soviet OOB for the CHS we need to know which units automatically upgrade in 45' and then adjust for the units whose AV they represent. Otherwise it might be overdone and cause an imbalance not there historically.

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Post #: 50
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/8/2006 6:37:38 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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Status: offline 		I'd like to see the ship art for these puppies. Who is doing them?

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Post #: 51
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/8/2006 7:50:33 AM   
TheElf


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Status: offline 		Check your PM

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Post #: 52
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 1/8/2006 4:23:30 PM   
Bliztk


Posts: 779
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Electronic City
Status: offline 		Here are my findings. Several strange things happened, because I moved the cursor over the one hex with Soviet troops and the hex information didn´t matched with the units in the hex.

All upgrades are to infantry corps unless noted. Device number listed.

Nahkodia
2216
2193
2198
2201 ==> ARM Corps
2226 ==> ART Corps

Vladivostok
2217

Imam
2191
2192
2227 ==> ART Corps

Khabarovsk
2210
2218
2212

Blagoviesk 67,25
2207 ==> ART Corps

68,25
2190
2206 ==Z ART Corps

68,20
2189

Borzya
2164
2165

Tamsag
2166
2167
2168
2170 ==> ART Corps
2171 ==> ART Corps
2182 ==> ARM Corps
2183 ==> ARM Corps
2184 ==> ARM Corps
2185 ==> ARM Corps

Notes:
In AB map Tamsag is not connected to the transport line of Manchuria, so the strike force here, is isolated in all effects.

At 68,31 there was a group of units, I passed the cursor over them and showed IDs of 2191,2192,2186, but they were not clickable. Two of these IDs were at Imam(2191,2192).

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 53
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 2/12/2006 6:33:28 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		According to http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/ Vnushitelny was completed 29.12.1947 - definetely after the war.

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Post #: 54
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 2/12/2006 8:09:27 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		For CHS and RHS, my Soviet destroyers use 5 inch / 38 Mark 22 SP Gun.
I also use the 12.7 AAMG. I do not give her depth charges because they were not carried as designed. [Soviet destroyers tend to carry mines. While mine rails can be used as primitive depth charge racks, there is more than DCs to an ASW ship. It takes sonar or hydrophones and a training program to make them useful ASW ships.] I use the Mark 8 torpedo because all the others have too much range to simulate the Soviet weapon. Otherwise my data is identical.

For some reason a post is lost - or in another thread. I have put two kinds of DCs on all Soviet destroyers. Conway's fails to list them. I had to improvise the little one. There are not many - but there are a few.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 4/6/2006 8:19:02 PM >

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Post #: 55
RE: Soviet OOB thread - 4/6/2006 7:45:55 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		Forrest, Big K, Joe. Here it is...


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Post #: 56
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