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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/22/2006 10:26:26 AM

Anendrue

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To established players the screens are a pain in the neck. To a new player they are very helpful. They slow down the game and compartmentalize the flow of information. Perhaps the solution is to have a config file to set the message flow a player wants. Perhaps 3 options on each message type. On, Off, and Time Delay (where in an ideal world you could set the amount of time delay). This way as a player progresses and becomes more expieranced he could modify the message settings to suit. Perhaps just a simple option of beginner, advanced, and delay message settings. That would even simplify it down to a single option setting and not one for each and every message. Personally I prefer the complete message settings capability. Oh well just my 2 cents.

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Post #: 541

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/22/2006 11:25:43 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
To established players the screens are a pain in the neck. To a new player they are very helpful. They slow down the game and compartmentalize the flow of information. Perhaps the solution is to have a config file to set the message flow a player wants. Perhaps 3 options on each message type. On, Off, and Time Delay (where in an ideal world you could set the amount of time delay). This way as a player progresses and becomes more expieranced he could modify the message settings to suit. Perhaps just a simple option of beginner, advanced, and delay message settings. That would even simplify it down to a single option setting and not one for each and every message. Personally I prefer the complete message settings capability. Oh well just my 2 cents.

I disagree.

As a player, I want to know if Germany has agreed to the USSR claim on Bessarabia or not. Even if I am playing Italy.

If I am trying to send out a paradrop mission, it would be nice to be told that all the air missions are used up, rather than just ... I don't know, automatically return the air unit to its starting hex and say nothing?

If an opponent just strategically bombed my factories, I would like to know about that too.

My point here is that the informational messages contain important information. There are only a few places where posting the report to the player may optionally be skipped. But I can hear the cries of anguish/outrage now when something was not reported and the player wanted to know about it. Or the player is trying to do something that is not legal and the program doesn't inform him as to why it is illegal. In both cases it is "the stupid programmer is causing me grief".

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Post #: 542

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/22/2006 12:12:08 PM

Norden_slith

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Question regarding borders.
It looks like borderlines remain, even after conquest of the country, is that correct?

If so, maybe they can be toned down, so they are still known, but no longer apply.

Norden

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Post #: 543

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/22/2006 12:47:18 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden
Question regarding borders.
It looks like borderlines remain, even after conquest of the country, is that correct?

If so, maybe they can be toned down, so they are still known, but no longer apply.

Norden

Borders of conquered countries are important for partisans and liberation. The 'subcountries' (e.g., Polish corridor), are drawn in using thinner lines. Most of them are there purely for historical interest, but some are involved in poliitcal decisions (e.g., Bessarabia).

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Post #: 544

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 1:46:54 AM

Anendrue

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Well what about dynamic national borders that redraw themselves after conquest occurs. The counquered nation border could be toned down wiith smaller subdued borders showing both the old and the new.

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Post #: 545

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 1:53:23 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Well what about dynamic national borders that redraw themselves after conquest occurs. The counquered nation border could be toned down wiith smaller subdued borders showing both the old and the new.

That would be nice.

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Post #: 546

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 2:25:18 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
Well what about dynamic national borders that redraw themselves after conquest occurs. The counquered nation border could be toned down wiith smaller subdued borders showing both the old and the new.

I do not understand what you are proposing here. Two colors for one border?

In general I want to minimize the number of colors that convey information on the map. When there are a lot of different colors intended to communicate different messages, the resulting rainbow overwhelms the senses and nothing is understood. The overall design is for a muted background with units in vibrant primary colors. The red outline for the country borders is an exception - one that follows WIF FE tradition (and a similar tradition for numerous wargames that preceded it).

Others have proposed alternative outlines for invadable hexes and I have agreed to make them temporarily visible when the player requests that information.

But trying to do do too much leaves me unhappy with the result. CWIF used dark green for weather zone borders and other colors (e.g., purple) for when rivers, alpine hexsides, country borders, weather zones for overlapped. I never liked that at all. Right now, we've got the red country borders, the blue rivers, and the white alpine hexsides - that's enough I believe (and very patriotic).

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Post #: 547

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 3:33:38 AM

Anendrue

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Specifically, I was suggesting that borders stay the same color this is a size of thickness suggestion. However after conquest the old border lines that no longer apply could be drawn to a smaller thickness and the new borders would be drawn at the normal thickness. To make this work the National boundaries might need to be sliightly thicker to begin with though.

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Post #: 548

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 4:02:20 AM

JagdFlanker

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i agree with mr OKeets that on the main map adjusting borders would be absolutly hell to program and get to work properly. however on the strategic map it would be nice if, say you were any axis country, you could have all the areas/hexes that were in full axis possesion to be hi-lited (or have the non controlled land areas darkened) and perhaps have contested areas (like a half conquored country) to be a "medium" colour or something of the like - it might be handy to see where there are problems at a quick glance, especially the SZ's. unoccupied SZ's could remain hi-lited/undarkened since they pose no threat, enemy SZ's would be dark, and SZ's with both sides occupiying it would be the medium colour. just throwing it out - this could be hell to program also! i am also assuming that you can click on the strategic map to quickly go to that area on the main map - this may not be the case...

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Post #: 549

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 7:02:07 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

i agree with mr OKeets that on the main map adjusting borders would be absolutly hell to program and get to work properly. however on the strategic map it would be nice if, say you were any axis country, you could have all the areas/hexes that were in full axis possesion to be hi-lited (or have the non controlled land areas darkened) and perhaps have contested areas (like a half conquored country) to be a "medium" colour or something of the like - it might be handy to see where there are problems at a quick glance, especially the SZ's. unoccupied SZ's could remain hi-lited/undarkened since they pose no threat, enemy SZ's would be dark, and SZ's with both sides occupiying it would be the medium colour. just throwing it out - this could be hell to program also! i am also assuming that you can click on the strategic map to quickly go to that area on the main map - this may not be the case...

Some of this is already in place (inherited from CWIF). The global map can be set to show:
1 - control by major powers
2 - unit occupancy by major powers
3 - weather by weather zone (obviously)
4 - convoys in sea areas.

I am leaving that as is for the present. I'll review it later when I get into redesigning presentation of naval operations.

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Post #: 550

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 11:59:15 AM

Froonp

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quote:

I never liked that at all. Right now, we've got the red country borders, the blue rivers, and the white alpine hexsides - that's enough I believe (and very patriotic).

I think that the weather zone borderline should still be drawn on the map.
It was in green in CWiF, and the same width as the borders and the rivers, so when you had both or all three on a single hexside you weren't always sure there was a river.
I'm sure that the weather borderlines could be shown on the MWiF map, if only the Borders were 1-2 more pixel in width, and if the weather borderline was 1-2 pixel less in width, and it was drawn above the national Borders.
Moreover, the Weathere borderline could appear as on the WiF FE map, that is a dotted light blue line.

Lastly, I think this is a must because even if a toggle can make appear a symbol in each hex to show which Weather zone it is in, it is ugly to have them all displayed all the time so they end up toggled off. And it is important for the player to have this line, as a reminder of why the things are the way they are. For example, I often was bothered in Poland because suddenly a unit could not enter a hexe I wanted to enter, only to discover that it was in another weather zone with a worse weather. Sometimes Weather zones are so meshed one within the others that thje separating line is not obvious nor a straight line.

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Post #: 551

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 1:22:26 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I never liked that at all. Right now, we've got the red country borders, the blue rivers, and the white alpine hexsides - that's enough I believe (and very patriotic).

I think that the weather zone borderline should still be drawn on the map.
It was in green in CWiF, and the same width as the borders and the rivers, so when you had both or all three on a single hexside you weren't always sure there was a river.
I'm sure that the weather borderlines could be shown on the MWiF map, if only the Borders were 1-2 more pixel in width, and if the weather borderline was 1-2 pixel less in width, and it was drawn above the national Borders.
Moreover, the Weathere borderline could appear as on the WiF FE map, that is a dotted light blue line.

Lastly, I think this is a must because even if a toggle can make appear a symbol in each hex to show which Weather zone it is in, it is ugly to have them all displayed all the time so they end up toggled off. And it is important for the player to have this line, as a reminder of why the things are the way they are. For example, I often was bothered in Poland because suddenly a unit could not enter a hexe I wanted to enter, only to discover that it was in another weather zone with a worse weather. Sometimes Weather zones are so meshed one within the others that thje separating line is not obvious nor a straight line.

This is still an open design item. The same problem exists for the weather zones at sea. I do not disagree with your points, I just am unsatisfied with the solutions I've seen so far. To make the weather zones noticeable without being ugly is the crux of the problem. Green gets lost in the forest/jungle/swamp/all sea hexes. Pinks and purples - ugh. White is a possibility - and make it a toggle so it doesn't have to be shown all the time. Dotted or dashed white when they overlie sea area or country borders. That's the best I've come up with so far. And I am not yet convinced it will look ok - not enough to go to the effort of coding it anyway. Ideas? In the meanwhile, fermentation continues.

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Post #: 552

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 5:30:41 PM

Anendrue

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I downloaded some weather map cards from one of the fan sites lined by either Patrice's or ADG's links and the weather cards are awesome for hex and counter version. I wonder if a floating card (message box with nice graphic skin of the weather) in the upper right corner activated (turned on or off) by toggle could easily show the weather for whatever hex the cursor is over? That is if you move the cursor into a new weather zone the card is redrawn with a new skin depicting the weather in the active zone.

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Post #: 553

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 5:35:41 PM

Anendrue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Right now, we've got the red country borders, the blue rivers, and the white alpine hexsides - that's enough I believe (and very patriotic).

Well at least the UK, France, and USA agree that Red White and Blue iis patriotic.

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Post #: 554

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 6:14:47 PM

lomyrin

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Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I never liked that at all. Right now, we've got the red country borders, the blue rivers, and the white alpine hexsides - that's enough I believe (and very patriotic).

I think that the weather zone borderline should still be drawn on the map.
It was in green in CWiF, and the same width as the borders and the rivers, so when you had both or all three on a single hexside you weren't always sure there was a river.
I'm sure that the weather borderlines could be shown on the MWiF map, if only the Borders were 1-2 more pixel in width, and if the weather borderline was 1-2 pixel less in width, and it was drawn above the national Borders.
Moreover, the Weathere borderline could appear as on the WiF FE map, that is a dotted light blue line.

Lastly, I think this is a must because even if a toggle can make appear a symbol in each hex to show which Weather zone it is in, it is ugly to have them all displayed all the time so they end up toggled off. And it is important for the player to have this line, as a reminder of why the things are the way they are. For example, I often was bothered in Poland because suddenly a unit could not enter a hexe I wanted to enter, only to discover that it was in another weather zone with a worse weather. Sometimes Weather zones are so meshed one within the others that thje separating line is not obvious nor a straight line.

I absolutely find that a weather line is a must, just like Patrice above thinks.

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 555

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/23/2006 10:54:55 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I downloaded some weather map cards from one of the fan sites lined by either Patrice's or ADG's links and the weather cards are awesome for hex and counter version. I wonder if a floating card (message box with nice graphic skin of the weather) in the upper right corner activated (turned on or off) by toggle could easily show the weather for whatever hex the cursor is over? That is if you move the cursor into a new weather zone the card is redrawn with a new skin depicting the weather in the active zone.

Currently the program has the ability to show weather and weather zones for each hex as a toggle. They overlie other information in a hex so most of the times the players will have them turned off. In addition, and separate, there are less intrusive weather overlays for non-fine weather. I am working with the artist on modifying them. I will also make them optional, but I expect most players to leave them on all the time.

What Patrice and Lars are talking about is something additional for weather zones, that is always present on the map (though I will make it a separate toggle too). The goal here is to have something visual that doesn't interfere with other information in the hex - hence the solution of using the hexsides to show demarkation lines rather than labelling each hex. I agree with Lars and Patrice that this is essential.

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Post #: 556

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/25/2006 9:54:51 AM

Norden_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Well what about dynamic national borders that redraw themselves after conquest occurs. The counquered nation border could be toned down wiith smaller subdued borders showing both the old and the new.

Yes, something like that would be great. Nothing like a "interactive" map. I've seen it in other games, it's a relative minor detail but a great effect.

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Post #: 557

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/25/2006 8:49:53 PM

Anendrue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

What Patrice and Lars are talking about is something additional for weather zones, that is always present on the map (though I will make it a separate toggle too). The goal here is to have something visual that doesn't interfere with other information in the hex - hence the solution of using the hexsides to show demarkation lines rather than labelling each hex. I agree with Lars and Patrice that this is essential.

Sorry about that I guess I just misunderstood the entire conversation. I was under the impression the idea was to show consistantly the weather in each zone at a glance. However I do understand it is hard in some hexes to see the weather zone it belongs to when counters are covering the map.

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Post #: 558

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/25/2006 9:41:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
What Patrice and Lars are talking about is something additional for weather zones, that is always present on the map (though I will make it a separate toggle too). The goal here is to have something visual that doesn't interfere with other information in the hex - hence the solution of using the hexsides to show demarkation lines rather than labelling each hex. I agree with Lars and Patrice that this is essential.

Sorry about that I guess I just misunderstood the entire conversation. I was under the impression the idea was to show consistantly the weather in each zone at a glance. However I do understand it is hard in some hexes to see the weather zone it belongs to when counters are covering the map.

The weather and weather zones are related but not the same. Two adjacent weather zones may have the same weather during the current impulse set (the weather stays the same for 2 impulses) but there is always the possibility that may change on the next weather roll. So the players want to know where the weather zones meet in order to assess the likelihood of movement, combat, and supply conditions changing due to weather in the near future.

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Post #: 559

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 5:55:20 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are some screen shots of the naval descritptions that Terje has been working on. I apologize for the irregular spacing in the text - I haven't quite decided on how to present paragraph text. I probably will write a little whip-de-doo routine that formats text descriptions using symbol combinations to denote new paragraphs (e.g., ".P" means new paragraph). Then I will remove extraneous blanks.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 560

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 5:57:58 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Another writeup for a US naval unit. If you look closely at the previous screen shot you will see that the white number 4 for the units are somewhat incomplete. That has to do with transparency and I wil clean it up eventaully.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 561

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 6:00:19 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here's one for a Siam naval unit. The US is reviewing the units so the theme colors are for the USA. A somewhat timely description of the 1951 incident. eh what?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 562

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 6:05:23 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here's a writeup for an Australian naval unit. You can see the problem with the white text more noticeably for this unit.

Terje has done a lot of these writeups but there are hundreds more to do. For example, only the Australian and New Zealand naval units have been done for the Commonwealth. I am still looking for people who will put together similar writeups for the other countries in the Commonwealth.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 563

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 6:09:20 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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And here is an example of the Japanese theme colors. Terje has done writeups for all the USA and Japanese naval units, and for the other countries in the Pacific. The French, German, and Italian navies have big white empty spaces for their writeups presently.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 564

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 6:13:31 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Last in the series. I wanted to show the French theme colors, and at the same time, the form that presents information on trade agreements. These are for the start of the Global War scenario - I set up the USA convoys badly and the Japanese haven't set up theirs yet. The form uses a TFixedListView component and I want to replace it so I can adjust the color for the column headers correctly.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 565

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 8:52:06 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here's a writeup for an Australian naval unit. You can see the problem with the white text more noticeably for this unit.

Terje has done a lot of these writeups but there are hundreds more to do. For example, only the Australian and New Zealand naval units have been done for the Commonwealth. I am still looking for people who will put together similar writeups for the other countries in the Commonwealth.

We seem to be running into the full-stop/comma cultural divide again. 88.000 hp? It's a good thing it only displaces 13.22 tons. There's a double full stop on the end too.

Also, should be background colour for the Japanese be slightly less pink/purple and more of a low saturation red?

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 566

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 9:46:46 AM

Froonp

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quote:

Here are some screen shots of the naval descritptions that Terje has been working on. I apologize for the irregular spacing in the text - I haven't quite decided on how to present paragraph text. I probably will write a little whip-de-doo routine that formats text descriptions using symbol combinations to denote new paragraphs (e.g., ".P" means new paragraph). Then I will remove extraneous blanks.

I like all those screens.

Nit pickers would ask for figure units to be uniformous through the naval units writups, for comparisons purposes. I suggest using millimeters instead of inches for armor and gun caliber (if I'm right that most of the world people uses mm instead of inches). Also use the right thousands separator, probably comma though the writups.

Also, why is the shadowing effect not showing on units in this dialog ?

Also, these writeups are real cool and real good reading, even for me who is kind of a WWII geek !!! Congrats to Terje !
and while I'm at congrats, congrats to Greyshaft for the Planes writups, and to Steve for the whole packaging !

Keep the faith dudes !!!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 567

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 11:54:58 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Here are some screen shots of the naval descritptions that Terje has been working on. I apologize for the irregular spacing in the text - I haven't quite decided on how to present paragraph text. I probably will write a little whip-de-doo routine that formats text descriptions using symbol combinations to denote new paragraphs (e.g., ".P" means new paragraph). Then I will remove extraneous blanks.

I like all those screens.

Nit pickers would ask for figure units to be uniformous through the naval units writups, for comparisons purposes. I suggest using millimeters instead of inches for armor and gun caliber (if I'm right that most of the world people uses mm instead of inches). Also use the right thousands separator, probably comma though the writups.

Also, why is the shadowing effect not showing on units in this dialog ?

Also, these writeups are real cool and real good reading, even for me who is kind of a WWII geek !!! Congrats to Terje !
and while I'm at congrats, congrats to Greyshaft for the Planes writups, and to Steve for the whole packaging !

Keep the faith dudes !!!

There are many contributors and I thank you all for your continuing assistance. The alternatives are either for the product to be poorer or for me to take more time filling in the missing pieces and/or locating and fixing mistakes.

As for measurements, I lean towards English for English speaking countries and Metric for non-English speaking countries. My logic here is rather simple: the literature on the ships (and other units) is likely to use the same measurements that the owning country uses. On the other hand, I will go with commas for thousands and periods for decimal points - just for consistency.

For the shadowing, I am only using it for the units when they are on the map - at the present time.

As you can see from the unit writeup screen, there are two sizes of unit depictions on the forms: zoom level 8 (the big one) and zoom level 4 (the smaller one). I use Z8 when showing one or two units on a form and Z4 when showing a list of units (either horizontal or vertical). Z4 is hard to read, but if the unit resoultion is set to medium that problem is solved.

For the last couple of days I have been messing around with the various components that you see here. For example, the unit data panel, which lists all the numeric factors for an individual unit now uses a slightly larger font and takes up a little more room. I also readjusted all the numbers so the colons (':') line up vertically. If you compare the air and naval units - and the different types of naval units - you will see that the layout for their information changes slightly.

Besides having both vertical and horizontal units lists, the lists vary depending on whether the status indicators are shown and whether there is any text under the unit. During setup it is important for the setup form/tray to have text describing each unit, but the status indicators have no value since every unit is the same (selectable). On the unit review form (used to display the unit descriptions amongst other things), the text is off to the side and the status indicators are omitted. This stuff varies from form to form and there are about 40 different ones that contain unit lists. I minimize the space required to display each unit whenever possbile. I am fighting smoe weird Delphi internal procedures about the sequence in which component variables are instantiated at the present. Once I get that settled, I'll define which forms get text and which get status indicators.

Then I will be able to go back and decide about using shadowing and outlining for the unit depictions in the forms. Probably yes for those at Z8, prossibly no for thse at Z4. By the way, I have fixed the transparency problem so the whites are whiter.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 568

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 12:05:46 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
...

Also, should be background colour for the Japanese be slightly less pink/purple and more of a low saturation red?

Cheers, Neilster

Yeah, I partially agree. The artist did the textured backgrounds and I am pretty happy with them all - even the Japanese one. What I have done on my own is try to match the textured background with a solid color. I was able to do that rather well for the French. If you look at the French Setup tray the text "Center map on setup area" is against a solid color, not the textured background. For most of the other major powers I wasn't able to get as close a match but they are ok. The exception is for the Japanese, where the matching color veers too far towards purple. I'l try to improve it - though I know from past experience that modifying red is difficult to do when using RGB.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 569

RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/26/2006 12:26:59 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

Here's a replacement color for the Japanese.

The Barbarossa tab is the Japanese unit color. The Missed the Bus tab is using the old solid color and Guadalcanal is using the new one I am proposing. It has higher contrast, which makes it easier to read black text against the background (its primary purpose for existing). Just so you know, I would prefer to use the textured background everywhere but not all the graphical interface components support the use of bitmapped backgrounds: radio buttons, checkboxes, and tabs are 3 places where I couldn't get around that restriction.