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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's

 
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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 12:42:40 AM   
m10bob


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Well...Go to the link Nik !!!!
http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/Beaufort.htm

Here is another link:
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-air-support/ww2-allied/beaufort.htm

This second link also has more info and pics on that Beaufighter as well, (including a torpedo strike !!!)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/15/2005 12:51:09 AM >


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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 12:48:03 AM   
Nikademus


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I did!!!! The Vicodin isn't hitting me that hard.....(i think) ok i did just miss the fact that our 1year old puppy is knawing on my sneaker!!!!!!

ok back to what's important in life

It doesn't say that the Beufort regularily operated in the Pacific using torpedoes. thats what i'm wondering. (This reminds me of an amusing comment my girlfriend made last nite: "Oh i'll let you get back to your Internet board discussing whether or the fuel tank of the Zero was the wrong shape or not in the game" )



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VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 12:50:37 AM   
Nikademus


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ok.....battle of Bizmark sea.....did they skip bomb or use torps.... hmmm



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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 12:52:22 AM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

"Oh i'll let you get back to your Internet board discussing whether or the fuel tank of the Zero was the wrong shape or not in the game" )




Well, now that you mention it, I think it should have been octagonal. Well known fact that eight sides is the optimal shape for fuel storage.

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Post #: 34
RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 12:53:56 AM   
Nikademus


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but in the game its rectangular shaped. This could greatly slant things in favor of the ALlies because an Octagonal fuel tank fills up much faster during carrier refueling. Allied carriers will gain advantage!

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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 12:57:27 AM   
Terminus


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AHA! Methinks I smell a conspiracy!

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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 12:59:10 AM   
m10bob


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Here is another great site...I read some of the RAAF squadron histories last night and there are several details regarding the use of the Beaufort AND Beaufighter in torpedo attacks since Milne Bay..(1942)
http://home.brisnet.org.au/~dunn/
(Where are our Aussie/NZ friends to offer these great links ????)


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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 3:30:22 AM   
spence

 

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Another twin-engine Allied plane capable (and tested) of carrying a torpedo was the PV-1 Ventura. Although the USN made test drops, the a/c never made a combat drop (for the USN anyways - don't know about the Ventura I's the Dutch, Aussies and Kiwis got). BTW, it looks to me like the PV-1 stats in the editor are actually for the PV-2 (Harpoon). The PV-1 could make more than 300 kts once its bombs were gone. According to my old man who flew one it was a pretty hot plane (a not very forgiving of pilot error in the landing pattern).

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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 3:59:42 AM   
Ian R

 

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M10 Bob

quote:

(Where are our Aussie/NZ friends to offer these great links ????)


have a look at post #18 above

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Post #: 39
RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 8:52:36 AM   
Ian R

 

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Nikademus, here is some chronological info I have managed to put together for you.

Firstly from what I know in general terms,

The Beaufort was always meant to be a torpedo bomber

Beauforts carried torpedos from 1941-44 (and later)

The first Beaufighter to carry a torpedo was the MkVI ITF and there were only about 60 and I have no evidence they went to the Pacific/CBI theatres

Beaufighter TFX ("Torbeau") was around in 1943 onwards and I gave you a link about that above somewhere.

The Beaufighter 21 was simply an Australian manufactured TFX, which they started building when the Beaufort contracts weree completed. There were some variations - some Australian manufactured aircraft have not been built with the dorsal fin or with the anheydral (spelling?) tail plane, they had a perpendicular one instead. They had 4 x 50 cal instead of the 6 x 303's of their UK stablemates. Originally they were going to drop a license built Twin wasp donk in but there were plenty of Hercules XVIII available so they used them instead. {http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/Beaufighter.html }

In the game you get (leaving the nightfighter aside) the VI (the heavy fighter or strike fighter version) and the 21, and the 21 arrives a lot earlier than 1944. Given its the same as the TFX it looks like they combined them to save a slot. Personal preference would have been to call it the TFX as the Mk21 designation was only used to indicate place of manufacture. Then again this is a Pacific consim so I can understand opting for "21".

I am not sure if historical use dates are the only guide to allowing the use of "Torbeaus". The game as I understand it factors in things like range, experience, ?? Leadership and coordination maybe when arming aircraft for a strike. So the torpedo option may have been available without a sufficiently experienced air unit in position to interecept an appropriate target before it was used. In fact thinking through that logically, it must be so.

Having said that, secondly,

from Green and Swanborough, RAAF squadron histories at the AWM website and miscellaneous sources:

26-7-40, fist production model Beaufighter (a IF) completed

XX -XX -1941 MkIC variant evolved specifically as shipping strike aircraft for RAF Coastal Command but not as I understand it a torpedo bomber) (original "MkI" contract was for 300 units, must have been extended because there were 914 MkIFs built)

XX -XX- Early 1941 Hercules VI engine becomes available, Beaufighter VIF developed. Coastal Command gets its up-engined variant -the VIC (1852 built)

22-03-41- First production MkII with RR Merlin engines built. Not as good as Hercules version. Only 450 built. Mostly used as nightfighters, tried things like putting Bolton Paul defiant type turrest in them.

XX -02-42- 100 Squadron RAAF was formed out of a nucleus of surviving personnel from the RAF's 100 Torpedo Bomber Squadron who had escaped from Malaya. The first RAAF squadron to be equipped with Australian built Beauforts, 100 Squadron was deployed to Queensland in May, where it conducted further torpedo bomber training and anti-submarine patrols.

XX-03-42 - work begins to adapt RAF Coastal Command's Beaufighter VIC fort the Torpedo Fighter role. Successful adaption, Can carry either UK 22.5 inch or US 18 inch torpedo.

1-5-42 - RAF 22 sqn arrives Ceylonj (Beauforts)

6 October 1942, 100 Sq squadron (Beauforts) conducted the first RAAF land based torpedo strike, operating from Milne Bay.

3-3-43 _During the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 30 Squadron RAAF Beaufighters flying at mast height, provided suppressive fire for following waves of allied bombers. The Japanese, under the mistaken impression that they were under torpedo attack, made a disastrous tactical error and turned their ships towards the Beaufighters, leaving them exposed to attack by American and Australian bombers. Eight troop laden transports and four destroyers were sunk in this battle for the loss of five aircraft, including one Beaufighter.

3-3-43 - 100 Squadron (Beauforts) also took part Battle of the Bismarck Sea in , when eight torpedo armed Beauforts met with limited success [USUALLY A EUPHEMISM FOR ABJECT FAILURE] against the dispersed Japanese convoy. This mission proved to be the Squadron's last torpedo bombing mission and thereafter it operated solely in the level bombing mode

x-03-43 8 SQ RAAF (originally Hudsons) was reequipped with Australian built Beauforts and moved to Goodenough Island where it began torpedo operations in addition to its bombing roles.

XX -05- 1943 Underwing rocket projectiles successfully introduced (instead of the wing MGs)

xx-xx-xx (still looking for this date) The first TFX rolls off the Bristol line. Hercules XVII (not XVIII as I mistakenly said earlier) engines with good low altitude performance. AI Mk VIII radar in thimble nose becomes standardised Vickers K gun in rear position (for the first time in any beaufighter model), Can carry US or UK torpedo, alternately 1500lb of bombs or 8 rockets. 2,205 built, and a further 163 without the torpedo gear called Mk XI C.

1-03-44 No 47 Sqn (Beau TFX) arrives Amriya South

26-5-44 - first mk21 flies, 364 built.

XX-XX-44 RAAF Sqn's in 30 series in NG flying TFXs or Mk21s

XX-06-44- RAF 22 Sqn switches to Beaufighter TFX


XX - 09 - 1945 Last of 5562 Beaufighters delivered to RAF.

I'm still looking for some more precise AARs to date Beaufighter torpedo strikes.

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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 9:36:46 AM   
Nikademus


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Thx Ian.

Thats very helpful.



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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 2:11:53 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Nikademus, here is some chronological info I have managed to put together for you.

Firstly from what I know in general terms,

The Beaufort was always meant to be a torpedo bomber

Beauforts carried torpedos from 1941-44 (and later)

The first Beaufighter to carry a torpedo was the MkVI ITF and there were only about 60 and I have no evidence they went to the Pacific/CBI theatres

Beaufighter TFX ("Torbeau") was around in 1943 onwards and I gave you a link about that above somewhere.

The Beaufighter 21 was simply an Australian manufactured TFX, which they started building when the Beaufort contracts weree completed. There were some variations - some Australian manufactured aircraft have not been built with the dorsal fin or with the anheydral (spelling?) tail plane, they had a perpendicular one instead. They had 4 x 50 cal instead of the 6 x 303's of their UK stablemates. Originally they were going to drop a license built Twin wasp donk in but there were plenty of Hercules XVIII available so they used them instead. {http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/Beaufighter.html }

In the game you get (leaving the nightfighter aside) the VI (the heavy fighter or strike fighter version) and the 21, and the 21 arrives a lot earlier than 1944. Given its the same as the TFX it looks like they combined them to save a slot. Personal preference would have been to call it the TFX as the Mk21 designation was only used to indicate place of manufacture. Then again this is a Pacific consim so I can understand opting for "21".

I am not sure if historical use dates are the only guide to allowing the use of "Torbeaus". The game as I understand it factors in things like range, experience, ?? Leadership and coordination maybe when arming aircraft for a strike. So the torpedo option may have been available without a sufficiently experienced air unit in position to interecept an appropriate target before it was used. In fact thinking through that logically, it must be so.

Having said that, secondly,

from Green and Swanborough, RAAF squadron histories at the AWM website and miscellaneous sources:

26-7-40, fist production model Beaufighter (a IF) completed

XX -XX -1941 MkIC variant evolved specifically as shipping strike aircraft for RAF Coastal Command but not as I understand it a torpedo bomber) (original "MkI" contract was for 300 units, must have been extended because there were 914 MkIFs built)

XX -XX- Early 1941 Hercules VI engine becomes available, Beaufighter VIF developed. Coastal Command gets its up-engined variant -the VIC (1852 built)

22-03-41- First production MkII with RR Merlin engines built. Not as good as Hercules version. Only 450 built. Mostly used as nightfighters, tried things like putting Bolton Paul defiant type turrest in them.

XX -02-42- 100 Squadron RAAF was formed out of a nucleus of surviving personnel from the RAF's 100 Torpedo Bomber Squadron who had escaped from Malaya. The first RAAF squadron to be equipped with Australian built Beauforts, 100 Squadron was deployed to Queensland in May, where it conducted further torpedo bomber training and anti-submarine patrols.

XX-03-42 - work begins to adapt RAF Coastal Command's Beaufighter VIC fort the Torpedo Fighter role. Successful adaption, Can carry either UK 22.5 inch or US 18 inch torpedo.

1-5-42 - RAF 22 sqn arrives Ceylonj (Beauforts)

6 October 1942, 100 Sq squadron (Beauforts) conducted the first RAAF land based torpedo strike, operating from Milne Bay.

3-3-43 _During the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 30 Squadron RAAF Beaufighters flying at mast height, provided suppressive fire for following waves of allied bombers. The Japanese, under the mistaken impression that they were under torpedo attack, made a disastrous tactical error and turned their ships towards the Beaufighters, leaving them exposed to attack by American and Australian bombers. Eight troop laden transports and four destroyers were sunk in this battle for the loss of five aircraft, including one Beaufighter.

3-3-43 - 100 Squadron (Beauforts) also took part Battle of the Bismarck Sea in , when eight torpedo armed Beauforts met with limited success [USUALLY A EUPHEMISM FOR ABJECT FAILURE] against the dispersed Japanese convoy. This mission proved to be the Squadron's last torpedo bombing mission and thereafter it operated solely in the level bombing mode

x-03-43 8 SQ RAAF (originally Hudsons) was reequipped with Australian built Beauforts and moved to Goodenough Island where it began torpedo operations in addition to its bombing roles.

XX -05- 1943 Underwing rocket projectiles successfully introduced (instead of the wing MGs)

xx-xx-xx (still looking for this date) The first TFX rolls off the Bristol line. Hercules XVII (not XVIII as I mistakenly said earlier) engines with good low altitude performance. AI Mk VIII radar in thimble nose becomes standardised Vickers K gun in rear position (for the first time in any beaufighter model), Can carry US or UK torpedo, alternately 1500lb of bombs or 8 rockets. 2,205 built, and a further 163 without the torpedo gear called Mk XI C.

1-03-44 No 47 Sqn (Beau TFX) arrives Amriya South

26-5-44 - first mk21 flies, 364 built.

XX-XX-44 RAAF Sqn's in 30 series in NG flying TFXs or Mk21s

XX-06-44- RAF 22 Sqn switches to Beaufighter TFX


XX - 09 - 1945 Last of 5562 Beaufighters delivered to RAF.

I'm still looking for some more precise AARs to date Beaufighter torpedo strikes.


Indeed !!!!! Excellent info, but now who will poke Nik with the stick ??

< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/15/2005 2:12:58 PM >


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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 2:20:20 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

As far as I can remember from earlyUV days the "Beauforts" were ljust evel bombers capable of carrying torpedoes.

But some Australian players showed info that mayority of "Beauforts" were in fact fighter bombers with powerful cannons in nose and that those (and not torpedo) was their primary anti ship weapon (i.e. "Beaufort" should be faighter-bomber instead of level bomber).

So... in WitP we have what was decided in UV...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 2:26:34 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

As far as I can remember from earlyUV days the "Beauforts" were ljust evel bombers capable of carrying torpedoes.

But some Australian players showed info that mayority of "Beauforts" were in fact fighter bombers with powerful cannons in nose and that those (and not torpedo) was their primary anti ship weapon (i.e. "Beaufort" should be faighter-bomber instead of level bomber).

So... in WitP we have what was decided in UV...


Leo "Apollo11"


I believe you are referring to "BEAUFIGHTER"..??

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RE: VICODIN! - 9/15/2005 2:48:11 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

As far as I can remember from earlyUV days the "Beauforts" were ljust evel bombers capable of carrying torpedoes.

But some Australian players showed info that mayority of "Beauforts" were in fact fighter bombers with powerful cannons in nose and that those (and not torpedo) was their primary anti ship weapon (i.e. "Beaufort" should be faighter-bomber instead of level bomber).

So... in WitP we have what was decided in UV...


Leo "Apollo11"


I believe you are referring to "BEAUFIGHTER"..??


Yes... brain fart (tm)...

Exchange "Beaufort" with "Beaufighter" in what I wrote!


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 45
RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/15/2005 7:46:58 PM   
panda124c

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Found this page with a pic of a Wellington being arm with a torp


http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/WH2-2Epi-fig-WH2-2Epi-e019b.html


Yea the Wellington was used as a Night Torpedo Bomber in the Med. carried two Torpedos. Did give the Italians a hard time. Don't know if they were used in that role in the Pacific.

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Post #: 46
RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/16/2005 1:22:19 AM   
eMonticello


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Found this page with a pic of a Wellington being arm with a torp


http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/WH2-2Epi-fig-WH2-2Epi-e019b.html


Yea the Wellington was used as a Night Torpedo Bomber in the Med. carried two Torpedos. Did give the Italians a hard time. Don't know if they were used in that role in the Pacific.

A quote from the website:
"Radar-equipped Wellingtons, loaded with parachute flares, patrolled the shipping lanes for up to ten hours throughout the night. Sighting reports were sent to base, and a striking force of torpedo-Wellingtons was homed on to the target convoy by continual position signals and by direction-finding radio. The search-Wellingtons, popularly known as ‘Snoopingtons’, promptly dropped parachute flares in an L-shaped pattern around the convoy from 4000 feet, utilising any moon path on the sea as well, so that the whole convoy might be trapped in a rectangle of light and the dispositions of the escorting destroyers clearly picked out. Meanwhile the strike-Wellingtons, or ‘Torpingtons’, attacked at sea level, making their runs so that the enemy merchant vessels were silhouetted against the flares. The torpedoes had to be dropped at approximately seventy feet above sea level, and on dark nights pilots sometimes flew into the sea."

Ouch!

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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/16/2005 1:23:53 AM   
Terminus


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"Snoopingtons"? Priceless!

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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/16/2005 1:32:56 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Snoopingtons"? Priceless!


The recon version ??
Comes with a doghouse ???

< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/16/2005 1:33:32 AM >


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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/16/2005 1:35:19 AM   
Terminus


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As well as flying goggles and a red scarf. It just has to, y'know?

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RE: Wellingtons and torpedo's - 9/16/2005 2:09:49 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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LOL

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