RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 3:05:39 PM

Sneer

Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
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weather was mixed and it is partially answer for this discussion
i often used thunderstorms/rains to appear close to enemy bases and i have been never cought by allied /i was twice at palmyra -Johnson area/ - no matter how many patrol planes were used - i was even 3 weeks before the battle 10 hexes from Palmyra with my whole fleet and was not spotted !!!!
the trick is to crawl with cruise speed to avoid sys dmg and refuel often and wait - if weather is good you can sprint to enemy base
max search of catalina is 13 - max speed of fleet carrier is 10 so you can jump in from range 14 to range 4 and surprise enemy easily
that's why Raver spotted me when i entered this magic circle and not sooner - there was no patrol plane in position to find my fleet earlier - i moved 7 hexes and ended 7-8 hexes from pago-pago when i was discovered
and remember that at range 10-13 search is often poor with mixed weather
best example are my emilys at canton isl which did not spot enemy fleet movement and and big invasion fleet at Pago - only dedicated sub's glen found that sth is happening there / remember that route of enemy's TF was 7-8 from canton !!! - they were not spotted - so i'm not surprised catalinas were also of little use
forget about patrol planes at ranges higher than 10 - they will spot in clear weather from time to time but will have problems in worse conditions
that's why importarnt areas are patroled by nells/betties
IRL many B17 were used to naval search instead of hammering enemy bases - if allied decides for lower amount of search planes their results are poorer
also remember that many subs were used defensively only to increase chances to spot enemy and scouting was certainly high in their mission roster
i don't understand that sth MUST be spotted - within 3-5 hexes it is partially true, but area is squere function of distance so chances are diminishing fast
i did not spotted Hornet and Essex on day 5th even if i feel i was in position to strike - do i make a problem of this ?
heavy damaged ships ( 3 torps to each) shouldn't be able to do more than 4 hexes per turn - so i should have them in normal range - nothing was spotted even if i had sth like 30 float planes used

it is not luck - it is weather and basic mathematics

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/29/2006 3:06:51 PM >

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 3:40:40 PM

jumper

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
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well, that�s why I feel there was a luck on your side. I�m the one who is always spotted even in the middle of mother of all thunderstorms and 13hexes away from single catalina in the whole area

And needless to say- my own naval recon sucks..
I didn�t say you had to be spotted. Only that you might be. From you response I see you made everything you could do to lower his chance - but still there was some.. It is always basic mathematics, but first thing dying in the battle is battle plan.
Please don�t understand me wrong and take no offence - It was nice, pure and deserved victory and I enjoyed a lot to see it.

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Post #: 692

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/29/2006 3:53:50 PM

Sneer

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not a problem Jumper and certainly no offence
i wanted only to show that
1. players don't use b17 historically so their search ability is lower - almost always B17 are kept together and in permanent attack mode
2. there is good way of fooling catalinas - they will always spot you when too late - when you are facing whole KB 4 hexes from your base and see your ships hit by torps - range of catalinas is too low to secure frontline bases - emilys are worth their weight in gold
3. players rarely try to play with enemy search abilities - and this part of play is my favourite one - to be in the place nobody wanted me to see

if sb looses one of central pacific atolls his search line is broken so extreme cautious should be taken as enemy can enter deep ocean without warning
allied won midway because they surprised their enemies- search ability was on their side

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/29/2006 3:54:27 PM >

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Post #: 693

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 4:25:38 PM

Sneer

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less and less to hunt - i'm quite low on sorties on smaller carriers
tonight mighty Essex was reported sunk at Pago Pago
and Nevada was hunted in the morning

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/28/43

Day Air attack on TF at 107,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 60
A6M3a Zero x 57
B5N Kate x 28

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 2
B5N Kate x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 7
A6M3a Zero x 6
B5N Kate x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 5
A6M3a Zero x 6
B5N Kate x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Nevada, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
5 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 4:31:53 PM

veji1

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waowww !!!

that's 5 CVs, so at least one of them won't respawn iirc... So that is one CV sunk for good...

kudos...

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Post #: 695

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 4:33:04 PM

Sneer

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at first look Hornet was more damaged so maybe we will wait for 6th kill ???

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 4:43:55 PM

veji1

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It seems you sank the Essex with 3 torps only ... Pretty good performance... OR bad, depending on the point of view...

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Post #: 697

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 5:05:59 PM

Sneer

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yes - i'm surprised too -i did not follow animations ( will do it tomorrow) but there must be ammo/and/or/ fuel explosion
my search units show CA and CV in location of Nevada sinking
i will stay to check it - my bet is that i see CVE + DD
I think Palmyra is full of enemy planes
but level bombers don't like flying unescorted against heavy cap and I do my best to keep 6-7 hex distance
tomorrow i plan to retire from palmyra
sad news - it is very bad with Kongo flooding goes up every day - i fear i will loose her

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/29/2006 5:09:34 PM >

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 5:15:14 PM

veji1

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ah well Kongos are really fragile ships... It is the main problem with them...

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 5:18:14 PM

Sneer

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not really a BB
I find that Nagatos can fight on par with any slow US BB , Yamato can fight on par with any fast and modern US BB but 4 older dreadnoughts are slightly weak in terms of durability and armor, Kongos are .... better armed bigger cruisers and they shouldn't be used in surface combat too often. I could make some adjustments and send there Musashi and 2 Nagatos ..... too late
i needed speed not strenght that night

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/29/2006 5:21:44 PM >

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 8 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 5:24:25 PM

veji1

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I keep the Kongos with KB usually o ruse them for bombardment, but never send them on "dangerous" surface missions...

Well, one CVL and BB for 5CVS and 7 or 8 BBs is a fair trade.....

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Post #: 701

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 9 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 9:37:05 PM

Sneer

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battle is over - proboably there will be little to report in next few days
i sunk CL St louis near palmyra but did not entered its strike range
no more targets reported - time to refuel and rearm
as for dmg report - ships are safe so i can publish it
Akagi 51/36 - stable and i doubt there will be any big problem here
Hiyo 38/8
Taiyo 31/0
Musashi 64/13 - for the amount of punishment received i'm impressed her condition is as good
Kongo 80/82 - it is critical as last turn it was 86 flood
Naka and 2 DD in 40 sys range
sth like 280-300 pilots lost - mostly from kates (over 100) and vals (almost 100)

enemy losses
5CV+1CVE
3 fast BB +6slow BB
1CA +2CL
600-650 planes estimated
many ships are damaged and i think 1-2 BB and 3-4 cruisers + Hornet will have to work a lot in order to reach West coast

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 9 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 9:46:51 PM

Mark VII

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From: Brentwood,TN
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I think it is time to stick Raver with a fork as he is done!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

battle is over - proboably there will be little to report in next few days
i sunk CL St louis near palmyra but did not entered its strike range
no more targets reported - time to refuel and rearm
as for dmg report - ships are safe so i can publish it
Akagi 51/36 - stable and i doubt there will be any big problem here
Hiyo 38/8
Taiyo 31/0
Musashi 64/13 - for the amount of punishment received i'm impressed her condition is as good
Kongo 80/82 - it is critical as last turn it was 86 flood
Naka and 2 DD in 40 sys range
sth like 280-300 pilots lost - mostly from kates (over 100) and vals (almost 100)

enemy losses
5CV+1CVE
3 fast BB +6slow BB
1CA +2CL
600-650 planes estimated
many ships are damaged and i think 1-2 BB and 3-4 cruisers + Hornet will have to work a lot in order to reach West coast

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 9 epilogue part 3 - 5/29/2006 10:35:53 PM

Nemo121

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Yeah, describing those losses as merely devastating is to fail to do them justice.

As I read it this strike pretty much condemns the Allied player to the defensive for the next 6 to 8 months, correct?

Have you any plans to exloit this with new offensives in 4 to 5 months time?

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Post #: 704

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 9 epilogue part 3 - 5/30/2006 1:20:25 AM

Sneer

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early 43 is far too late to be on serious offensive
enemy can spend few hundreds LBA without hesitation
and all targets are well garrisoned and fortified
i need to finish Chungking
there is little problem with lowering forts even if i gathered almost whole china army there
+ secure India with additional troops
+ send few big units to southern dei an salomons as i expect Raver's activity there sooner or later
as far as naval activity - shared AAR prevents from wide disscussion but options are rather limited - with all planes back at KB I can visit almost every base Raver has excpt continental ones and PH

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/30/2006 1:22:43 AM >

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 3:23:52 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

not a problem Jumper and certainly no offence
i wanted only to show that
1. players don't use b17 historically so their search ability is lower - almost always B17 are kept together and in permanent attack mode
2. there is good way of fooling catalinas - they will always spot you when too late - when you are facing whole KB 4 hexes from your base and see your ships hit by torps - range of catalinas is too low to secure frontline bases - emilys are worth their weight in gold
3. players rarely try to play with enemy search abilities - and this part of play is my favourite one - to be in the place nobody wanted me to see

if sb looses one of central pacific atolls his search line is broken so extreme cautious should be taken as enemy can enter deep ocean without warning
allied won midway because they surprised their enemies- search ability was on their side

That's so true. The one time that I've gotten in trouble against Treespider was when I sent a carrier into an area where I had no search planes. Fortunately for me, Treespider did the same thing!

My B-17s find more ships and subs than anything else I have...

Dave Baranyi

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 3:31:17 AM

BrucePowers

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Well, once again I learn something new. I will be a little more careful with B-17s now. They make lousy ship killers anyway (in my opinion).

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Post #: 707

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 4:27:05 AM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Well, once again I learn something new. I will be a little more careful with B-17s now. They make lousy ship killers anyway (in my opinion).

I almost never use 4E bombers for ship hunting unless I am totally desparate. I use them exclusively for search until there are some important Japanese bases well within range that need to be bombed. Remember, using 4Es at extreme range causes unacceptable ops losses, fatigue gain and morale drop, all of which translate into weaker attacks the next time. On the other hand, using 4Es at relatively short ranges against airbases, particularly with decent escorts, is "nirvana" for an Allied player. So save the "big boys" for the important stuff and use your 2E bombers for ship hunting.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 10:38:01 AM

Sneer

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truth is that allied catalinas can spot fast enough invasion transport or bombardment run but are useless as warning against Japan Carrier force

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RE: report - 5/30/2006 12:45:17 PM

1275psi

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What a magnificent victory
You give all 1943 japanese players hope -and all allied players who have not dealt KB a blow -a reason to pause.

Well done!

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 2:31:10 PM

Sneer

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Good side of this battle is that there is good chance for good 44y battles
it is even possible to see shindens and reppus in greater numbers - there are so little AARs from 45 and 42 y is little boring to me to read
Raverdave will certainly give good fight and even next such massacre will not turn the tide of war - what is rather not probable
and now there is possible to see something not conventional as I doubt Allies can wast next 6 months waiting for carriers. - my bet is Darwin area will be exploited by Raver - and this region is 1st on list to reinforce
second bet India land campaign - i think within 6 months we will see fight there
third bet Salomons- however that would be risky
Aleutians/kuriles can be thrown away as I doubt Raver will move with so weakened navy
Certainly from readers point's of view this outcome is better

and I think even Raverdave ( when he cools down) will be glad we have chance to play sth original instead of pure logistical task of taking all my bases. This game starts to be interesting now

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 2:47:01 PM

veji1

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yup, I am betting on a very tough an parallel campagn in India and Darwin-Timor.

What will Raver do ? Now that he can't destroy you navy airforce until late in the war, he will do his best to destroy the IJAAF, going on a bombing campaign from Darwin is good, but with so few navy, you could pay him a visit with all KB and BBs and blast the hell out of northern OZ... So he will probably try to go for India... There you must play a Verdun kind of Defense : Dig in and hold... and try not to waist your IJAF fighters. To bad allies can know beforehand the whereabouts of jap planes thanks to the airbalance number... And prepare Burma, because in 1944, this is where the fight we'll continue

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Post #: 712

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 3:09:15 PM

Sneer

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everything is ready - there are little bases which are not lvl 9 now and little 2nd line bases that are not at 6-7 - even rear area is usually at lvl3
Inidia would be good but i doubt Raverdave wants to attract attention from my china army - soon there should be no enemy there and then i will feel free to move troops anywhere i want.

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 3:11:53 PM

Andy Mac

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The RN is pretty much intact........

The R class BB's are actually tougher than their stats indicate the 15" gun is pretty powerfull and F4U's are not far away !!!!

I really dont think that an attack on North Aus is worth the price

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 3:35:38 PM

veji1

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The idea isn't attacking Northern OZ now, just that Raver might not want to over committ there for the next months with the threat of KB and the battleline paying a visit...

Although as Sneer said regarding India, once and if China is toasted, he'll have lots of LCUs to use there...

So really it is a very complicated situation because I can't see where Raver could go on a big offensive... He will probably just go on an bombing spree from India and Darwin trying to destroy all ressources, Oil and HI that are reachable with escorts... But that's about it...

So you might actually be looking at 6 calms months, execpt on secondary fronts such as the ASW war... Except putting all possible hurt on the IJAAF, I can't really see what he could do that would be strategically significant...

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 5:04:38 PM

Sneer

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Raver will think sth out of it
I have strong belief in his abilities

< Message edited by Sneer -- 5/30/2006 5:09:14 PM >

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 10:38:14 PM

Capt. Harlock

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My apologies for not replying sooner -- a busy Memorial Day weekend. Okay, I need to modify my post about luck. Sneer's techniques for dealing with search ranges are clever indeed, and prove the saying that luck is most useful to those who are prepared for it. I would like to point out, however, that weather is largely controlled by chance, and any moves depending on weather are almost by definition depending on luck.

One observation: if Sneer can sail to within 10 hexes of Palmyra and not be detected, is it possible there is an error in the search code? (It wouldn't be the first time: in the old "Bomb Alley" game, a base which launched surface and submarine search found its range limited to that of the sub searching planes.)

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RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 7 epilogue part 2 - 5/30/2006 11:44:48 PM

veji1

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well I don't think so, You cannot expect 9 catalinas to find any TF in a range of 800 miles...

As Sneer and David put it before, allied players don't have many patrol and recon aircrafts, and they forget that this is because IRL the allies used bombers to do lots of Recon... Maybe had Raver B17s doing some nav search as well he would have had 1 turn to get ready to fight, we'll never know but it really seems logical to me that sometimes you can be surprised because your patrol planes didn't see the ennemy approaching... happened before..

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Lost in Translation - 5/31/2006 11:45:49 AM

Raverdave

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Hello all,

worst luck I am away interstate with work, and what was to be an overnighter has turned into a real dog of a time. Currently I'm stuck in Sydney (for the second night in a row

) but am departing this "fair" city for the delights of Canberra tomorrow, with hopes of being home Friday night.

I have been reading all that has been posted and never fear, Raver will return for this harsh blow to create a number of "new" reefs made from the ships of the IJN.

The USN is in such a sate that offensive ops will not take place for at least 8 to 12 months so if anything sneer has simply extended this game to 1946.............all the better for me.

Congress has approved the building of 100 new carriers so things will start to look very grim indeed for our old friend Mr Sneer.

The RN carriers have come out of this mess looking rather good and a quick refit in port will have them back in fighting trim within two months...........I REALLY like these RN carriers and once they are fitted with some halfway decent planes they will do very well. Having seem the extent of damage that I did to at least some of Sneers fleet I am a little more happy.....with the fog of war it seemed as if I have barely scratched him.

That all for now.

Raverdave

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Post #: 719

RE: report : battle at Canton Isl day 9 epilogue part 3 - 6/1/2006 1:19:54 AM

invernomuto

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

battle is over - proboably there will be little to report in next few days
i sunk CL St louis near palmyra but did not entered its strike range
no more targets reported - time to refuel and rearm
as for dmg report - ships are safe so i can publish it
Akagi 51/36 - stable and i doubt there will be any big problem here
Hiyo 38/8
Taiyo 31/0
Musashi 64/13 - for the amount of punishment received i'm impressed her condition is as good
Kongo 80/82 - it is critical as last turn it was 86 flood
Naka and 2 DD in 40 sys range
sth like 280-300 pilots lost - mostly from kates (over 100) and vals (almost 100)

enemy losses
5CV+1CVE
3 fast BB +6slow BB
1CA +2CL
600-650 planes estimated
many ships are damaged and i think 1-2 BB and 3-4 cruisers + Hornet will have to work a lot in order to reach West coast