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RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 12:53:03 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		And I am I have 3 Sqns of F4U1D's but they are all NAVY sqns. (I only use 2 at any one time as the third is rebuilding/replacement mode)

My agreement in pretty much every game I play is that I won't use Marine Corsairs Sqns on CV's.

I think this is a fairly standard rule agreed for most games.


(in reply to Bliztk)
Post #: 901
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 12:54:48 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Actually l the ability to downgrade some of my Hellcat Sqns the Wildcats would be exceptionally usefull right now.



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Post #: 902
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 1:09:51 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		OK last post for a while PZB is on 2 weeks holiday so I will take my time over the next turn plan provisional operations and do some detailed planning for objectives forthe future.

Frank an Indian adventure by a single Corps is a possibility after I sieze Malaya. More is just not worth it

I will also begin the reorganisation process in my rear areas as my units are a little disorganised and work out how to finish off Noemfoor.


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 903
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 2:30:31 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

I have been a fan of both your's and PzB's AARs for a while now. And as much as I am rooting for JPN here  I am curious how your sub fleet is? At this point in the war, the US sub fleet was sinking japanese shipping at an average rate of 150,000 tons a month or 40 ships. PzB can produce so much because you haven't made any dedicated efforts to curtail his industry. Just my opinion.


You forget that because supply is produced at resource centres on a 1 : 1.25 ratio and it is available in absolutely bullshit quantities it is not nearly as necessary for Japan to move supply from the Home Islands...it is produced at the front!!! So, aside from the odd massive resource convoy or oil convoy, the only convoys at sea are invasion convoys. And with no civilian economy, there is no need to bring/move supply among the home islands and the mainland. How can subs sink ships when they are not at sea?


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Post #: 904
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 2:43:56 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		2 reasons
1.lack of india/burma theater which usually makes JAP airforce bleeding fast so no big pools available usually
2. free supply in india which makes industry buildup comfortable - especially with no pressure in land combat - i think 60-70% of JAP HI is devoted to planes - there is no need for land units and navy at this moment - you can't exhaust jap economy in THIS game with such strategy

lack of 4e campaign / small amount of combats with corsairs and so on as secondary issues

Sorry Andy but engine is more or less ok - - balance of this game was far from usual position but volunteered for this



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Post #: 905
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 2:47:08 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

I have been a fan of both your's and PzB's AARs for a while now. And as much as I am rooting for JPN here  I am curious how your sub fleet is? At this point in the war, the US sub fleet was sinking japanese shipping at an average rate of 150,000 tons a month or 40 ships. PzB can produce so much because you haven't made any dedicated efforts to curtail his industry. Just my opinion.


You forget that because supply is produced at resource centres on a 1 : 1.25 ratio and it is available in absolutely bullshit quantities it is not nearly as necessary for Japan to move supply from the Home Islands...it is produced at the front!!! So, aside from the odd massive resource convoy or oil convoy, the only convoys at sea are invasion convoys. And with no civilian economy, there is no need to bring/move supply among the home islands and the mainland. How can subs sink ships when they are not at sea?




Wonder what I do wrong in all my games as Japanese (and all the Japanese opponents do wrong when I´m the Allied)? I agree with you Ron that it´s ridicoulos that supply is generated in such an amount "near" the front. But I still have dozens of convoys on the map going around to bring supplies somewhere. The supply from the SRA has still be brought out, there´s no sense in leaving the supply in e.g. Toboali!! Dozens of TFs are only bringing supplies somewhere. With all the cargos and tankers at sea hauling oil and resources I think there are hundreds of merchants at sea in my games. And it´s surely easier to catch them in the SRA than on the open ocean when they come from the home islands, at least this is the experience I made with my subs hunting Jap merchants.

I think in most PBEMs the issue of hunting Japanese merchants is underestimated. Every time I´m the Allied side this is one of my primary tasks!!! This is what I fear the most as Japanese, not Corsairs shooting down my Zekes over Tarawa!

< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/10/2006 2:49:28 PM >

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 906
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:06:14 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Keep in mind two things. This game was played using version 1.5 for a long time. PzB has massive amounts of Level bombers on ASW. I was having trouble moving my subs into any location where I could attack supply convoys. Gettting within 5 or 6 hexes of any size 4 airbase was a death sentence. I lost 12 subs just trying to move them to the West of Luzon. They were all attacked by swarms of aircraft and sunk. So, before you tell someone their stratagy is wrong, know all the facts.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 907
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:10:29 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Keep in mind two things. This game was played using version 1.5 for a long time. PzB has massive amounts of Level bombers on ASW. I was having trouble moving my subs into any location where I could attack supply convoys. Gettting within 5 or 6 hexes of any size 4 airbase was a death sentence. I lost 12 subs just trying to move them to the West of Luzon. They were all attacked by swarms of aircraft and sunk. So, before you tell someone their stratagy is wrong, know all the facts.



It wasn´t my intention to tell anyone that he´s using the wrong strategy, I just wanted to tell that I´m using the right strategy!

Seriously, yes this is a problem. But this is the same with using thousands of planes at a location. I don´t have a house rule on that in my games (wasn´t necesarry so far) but if my opponent has at every base near the shipping lanes 150 bombers on ASW attack.... well, don´t know what I would tell him....

Everything should go in normal ways....

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 908
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:13:11 PM   
skrewball


Posts: 305
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Wonder what I do wrong in all my games as Japanese (and all the Japanese opponents do wrong when I´m the Allied)? I agree with you Ron that it´s ridicoulos that supply is generated in such an amount "near" the front. But I still have dozens of convoys on the map going around to bring supplies somewhere. The supply from the SRA has still be brought out, there´s no sense in leaving the supply in e.g. Toboali!! Dozens of TFs are only bringing supplies somewhere. With all the cargos and tankers at sea hauling oil and resources I think there are hundreds of merchants at sea in my games. And it´s surely easier to catch them in the SRA than on the open ocean when they come from the home islands, at least this is the experience I made with my subs hunting Jap merchants.

I think in most PBEMs the issue of hunting Japanese merchants is underestimated. Every time I´m the Allied side this is one of my primary tasks!!! This is what I fear the most as Japanese, not Corsairs shooting down my Zekes over Tarawa!


Yeah...when I was in my short PBEM as the allies, in 3 months of war...Dutch subs had sank 30+ AP/AKs. So it is possible. I had him panicing

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Post #: 909
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:28:30 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Guys I am pretty confident I can shut down PZB's economy. Subs, air and surface forces are going to kick him in the nuts. And India is only good for him while he holds it !!!!!

Sneer I am NOT complaining about the engine, I am delighted to have this game and am having massive fun with it. (to be fair I enjoy all my PBEM's for different reasons)

My only issue is that the Hellcat replacement rate is wrong by about a factor of 3 which hamstrings US Carrier Ops.

Its an issue which I think should be corrected but I am not losing any sleep over it. I read the signs correctly early enough and pulled out of an invasion that would have been a disaster had I proceeded. (I think PZB missed a trick he should have let me land then attrited my fighter pools).

The lack of Hellcats just means I will rely on uber CAP, be more sensitive to losses and proceed under a veritable blanket of LBA. Its crap for PZB because its a low risk strategy but it WILL get the job done.

Does anyone really think I was wrong to pull out of the invasion ?

Andy

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 910
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:30:01 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Nomad is right I tried an offensive under 1.5 with subs but since we upgraded to 1.8 my subs are a lot more effective. I still lose a few but I am sinking merchantmen.

(One reason for really going  for Malaya soon is to have an advanced fleet base with repair yard.)

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 911
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:32:36 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		p.s. I really dont care about PZB's production the more industry he has the more VP's I get when I firebomb the place. I am concerned about the lack of US Hellcat production.

If it came across otherwise in earlier posts apologies.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 912
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:33:45 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		as far as hellcat i give you my support - should be at least twice that high 

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Post #: 913
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:34:51 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Does anyone really think I was wrong to pull out of the invasion ?

Andy


I think you were right to. If you stayed on site he would have over whelmed you eventually and it would've been a disaster IMO.

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Post #: 914
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:37:21 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Does anyone really think I was wrong to pull out of the invasion ?

Andy


very difficult to say - it was not an atoll so you could take it i think
costs ??? - probably nightmare but ...
B29 close to HI could be worth it

question - what will be next important CV task - with tinian marianes could be taken sooner or later and CV force could only cap transports and keep KB out of play
even 4-5 months break after that could be acceptable



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Post #: 915
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:43:54 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Andy, I think you did right to cancel. You can not cap something if you have no fighters. I was glad when I saw the PzB agreed to upgrade to 1.8(01). You should have much better success with your subs now. You will have to keep most of your advances under a Corsair umbrella.

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 916
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 3:47:11 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		what about palaus area - this region can bring support from 4e monsters to any invasion in the area ?

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Post #: 917
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 4:04:37 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I am considering it Sneer but Wasile and the Sulawesi ops give me an opportunity to advance skirting the PI so I think a 1-2 punch 6th and 8th Armies up the corridor of Western PI/Eastern Borneo and then launch 1st Aus Army at Malaya is the way to go.

I will need as many CB's as I can find so I will start shifting the stockpiled ones out of SF

10th Army will activate in 30 days and will take over planning for Centpac with 4 Corps under command

Andy

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 918
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 5:00:00 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Tarakan, Brunei, Jesselton, Balikapan,Mindanao, Miri, Sandakan, Kuching, Cebu, Puerto Princessa, Taytay the islands between PI and Borneo basically plenty of areas to attack with minimal opposition on the ground without going too near to Luzon

Basically to many bases for PZB to secure them all.

I am also considering my own version of Market Garden using the whole of 11th Airborne to capture Kuching, Miri or Brunei

PZB really should have let me get tangled up at the Marianas and not frightened me off !!!!!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 919
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:03:46 PM   
jwxspoon


Posts: 167
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Myrtle Beach, SC USA
Status: offline 		This may be a really stupid question, but why can't you set the NF Hellcats to day operations and use them?

jw

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 920
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:07:29 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I have only got 3 Sqns of them and they are all Marine Sqns also the missions they have are restricted. Plus I do actually need 2 Sqns with the fleet  for night cap.

PZB is using night naval bombers so I tend to have 1 - 2 Sqns on night cap over the fleet at all times plus some Black Widows if in range of their base

So I have 1200 night fighting hellcats in pool and 72 aircraft able to deploy them.

(in reply to jwxspoon)
Post #: 921
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:12:34 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		as far as i know you can fly night fighter in daylight at lrcap mission
so use it to max


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Post #: 922
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:19:58 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Aye you can but I really do need a night cap. 300 betties on night naval could cause a lot of grief so I do actually need to deploy some night fighter capability.

I would happily trade 1,000 night fighter variants for day fighter though !!! It wont happen so I just need to recognise the limitations and manage within them.

Wasile will be lvl 6 soon then I will move the Superforts in.

Tomini will be lvl 4 in a while between them I can use LBA to support any invasion.

The critical difference is that I can take more bases with relative speed to forward deploy P38's Spits and P47's 

My Carrier gps are all muddled up now and need to be resorted in a port as I re organised on the fly.

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 923
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:27:07 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		all i can say
 PZB situation is japan player wet dream
 all forces concentrated against limited allied one
 it is probably most extreme variant of history seen in AARs and probably no game will follow - with people aware of possibility that they loose karachi and many of them restricting from such play it may not be repeated
 so your task is at least difficult
 i'd like to have such forces concentrated in my game as i see regularly in this game
 it takes quite a lot of time to plan how to hurt allies in late 43 unless they move too far 

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Post #: 924
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:37:34 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Actually Sneer I disagree that this is the best alterantive for the Japanese.

PZB IMO made a major mistake not securing Lunga/ Tarawa and PM.

Karachi and India was a fine achievement but the allied offensive out of the Pacific operates independently of this theatre Wobbly/AdavidB and Nomad held those forward bases allowing an advance under LBA air cover before effective carrier fighter arrived. (Assisited by the suicidal invasion of Java that tied down more forces and lost PZB time and Wobblies sinking of the 2 SOPAC IJN Carriers - it is only now that the full fruits of these sacrifices made by Wobbly become apparent)

Basically I think PZB screwed up and should have done a similar thing to what you have done went for Calcutta the South East Coast and perhaps Columbo but made sure he took those SOPAC islands before the allies made them impregnable.

By failing to do so he advanced the allied timetable in SWPAC by 6 - 9 months.

If his objective is delay this was a fundamental miscalculation. Yes he has stopped an allied offensive out of Burma but he has to commit the ground forces that could have dug in at Calcutta, Dimapur, Mandalay, Moulmien and Tavoy fighting a slow retreat behind lvl 9 forts each step of the way to guard the Indian coastal cities.

All its really gained him is some HI and avoided a drain on his pilot pool from that quarter.

I really believe India/ Australia etc is a mistake for the Japanese if they dont secure Lunga, PM, Baker Island and Tarawa in strength

Andy

(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 925
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:48:20 PM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		hmmm interesting analysis... Food for thought if I ever reach this point in game...

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Post #: 926
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 6:53:14 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Andy makes some good points there IMO.

I have experienced a similar quandry in my game vs Faber. Basically with him taking PM, all the Solomans, Gilberts etc = no Allied base is within medium/fighter rage in the entire Pacific = I have to secure that first lodgment purely with CV air cover.

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Post #: 927
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 9:13:06 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Interesting Speedy. I too have a hard one coming up, my opponet took Nouema and PM in January 1942. I will have to advance under CV air only. I have lost 2 CVs sund and 2 severly damaged but sand 3 of his. More battles occuring now. It is Sept 1942, time to advance.

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 928
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 9:36:47 PM   
Sneer


Posts: 2654
Joined: 10/29/2003
Status: offline 		i did not thought about cen pac islands - here i agree with you and i did my best to secure them in my game
i thought about industry situation - 30% more supply than any other player + force concentration ability


gilberts can't fall before end of 43 IMO
you can loose all buffer zone  - palmyra/baker/canton etc but not  gilberts/wake otherwise japan will have problems with timetable - pacific route is relatively short so each step should force allied to stop for a time and need max allied effort
in 43 canton/baker/palmyra/jonson/pago loose its importance for japan


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Post #: 929
RE: Operation Thunderchild - 7/10/2006 10:02:48 PM   
Wolfie1

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Blackpool, England
Status: offline 		I really think Andy should be trying to kick him out of India - that should give a lot of delayed re-inforcements

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(in reply to Sneer)
Post #: 930
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