Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> The War Room >> Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/22/2017 3:56:27 PM   
Tortue Agile

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/22/2017
Status: offline 		Good morning gentlemen,

I have started a few days ago to play this great game. But I am wondering what's the intend with the French Nation.
Their moral is lower than the Italians, the army is weak and whatever we do as an allied player we will loose France every time. It's possible to delay the advance of the Germans by sending more Brits I guess but it doesn't last much longer.

So for the beginning of the game I am wondering why bother having a scenario starting in 1939 (on the allied side) when we know that whatever we do Poland and France will fall quickly.

Historically France was considered as a challenge by the Germans. By May 10 it had 3 DCR and 3 DLM which were the equivalent of Tank divisions (the firsts with heavy B1bis tanks and the seconds coming from the cavalry school with the excellent Somua S35).

If one read Robert Doughty's Breaking Point and Frieser's The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West it's evident that it wasn't expected to be a walk in the park and that luck played a good part in the result.

So that's why I am wondering if the first turns of the game try to only to simulate the initial results without giving to the player the possibility to create a strategy that will make it possible (but not easy) for France to survive.
War games in my opinions are enjoyable when we can test ideas about what happened and alternatives.
We know as a fact that Poland and the western countries felt fast. But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?

< Message edited by Tortue Agile -- 9/23/2017 12:58:57 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/22/2017 6:38:08 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?

No. Neither France nor Britain could help Poland. For May 1940, Frieser's book is excellent, but also see Alistair Horne's To Lose a Battle. France was flawed in every way and had no hope of surviving.

(in reply to Tortue Agile)
Post #: 2
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/22/2017 7:06:14 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2055
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline 		The most recent game I finished I was able to move the French government to Algiers, defeat the Italian/German invasion of Tunisia and rally the French to co-cooperatively defeat Italy by April of 1942. The game does not have to be a historical simulation, but will be until something unhistorical happens. I'm not sure the Allies are strong enough to force a unhistorical situation in the first 9 months of the war though.

< Message edited by crispy131313 -- 9/22/2017 8:34:31 PM >

_____________________________

Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4183873

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 3
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/22/2017 10:14:18 PM   
Tortue Agile

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/22/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

But would it be possible to find a strategy to counter the German onslaught?

No. Neither France nor Britain could help Poland. For May 1940, Frieser's book is excellent, but also see Alistair Horne's To Lose a Battle. France was flawed in every way and had no hope of surviving.


It's hard to compare Alistair Horne's older analyze of the campaign with Friezer or Doughty. Horne didn't have access to the same historical material as the 2 others who did an extended research (and not jus repeat the misconceptions of the past). We know now for example that the defeat of France was partly due to its military leaders. We know that the French tanks were equal or even superior to the German's.

If I look at the units given to France for the may 40 scenario I'm struggling to find any of the DLM or DCR that were present on the field of battle.

The game reproduces the historical outcome without taking in consideration the strength of the armies on the field.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 4
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/22/2017 11:18:21 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
quote:

The game reproduces the historical outcome without taking in consideration the strength of the armies on the field.


That`s not the case, there`s at least 1 french heavy tank, their lack of communication and modern warfare doctrine is represented by his ability to attack just once, while german tanks attack twice (Germany has already tank warfare from the start). It also represents departing their tanks as inf. support.

Beside the given situation at start, from there on you are relatively free in deciding what strategy is favourable. Maybe using the mod "Calm before the Storm", which starts early 38, is providing better conditions in your favor.

SC3 is not a WW2 simulation, nor is it a sandbox game.


(in reply to Tortue Agile)
Post #: 5
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/23/2017 1:08:45 AM   
Tortue Agile

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/22/2017
Status: offline
quote:

That`s not the case, there`s at least 1 french heavy tank, their lack of communication and modern warfare doctrine is represented by his ability to attack just once, while german tanks attack twice (Germany has already tank warfare from the start). It also represents departing their tanks as inf. support.


France had 2 types of tank divisions and 3 kind of formations/purpose:
- The DCR (with heavy tanks B1 bis and medium tanks) supposed to be used for breakthrough.
- The DLM (which fought with some success in Belgium at Hannut and Gembloux) their role at the beginning of the campaign was to screen the advance of the motorized infantry.
- The independent battalions under corps or army command which were used in support of infantry and that's what most people think about when they think about the use of tanks by France during the 1940 campaign.






(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 6
RE: Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness - 9/23/2017 1:32:36 AM   
Tortue Agile

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 9/22/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Beside the given situation at start, from there on you are relatively free in deciding what strategy is favourable. Maybe using the mod "Calm before the Storm", which starts early 38, is providing better conditions in your favor.



I'll give it a try. Thanks for the tip.

(in reply to Sugar)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> The War Room >> Wargame or Historical simulation? France weakness Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.703