Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: wosung

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Selection of new cities:

(...)
The nowadays more important Hofei could be substituted with Anking (just one hex apart, in the mountainous Yangzi-hex to the south east, then Provincial capital of Anhwei).
(...)

About Anking: As I said above.
The China Handbook 1937-44, names it the Capital of Anhwei Province with the alternative Name (Hwaining) in brackets. But personally I prefer Anking.

About additional mountains there:
As far as I can see they would be warranted in the 2 hexes just south of Anking. That means: The 2 hexes east of Wuhan.
Note that Anking itself is a Yangtze port, in what seems to be a steep vally.

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ORIGINAL: trees

I have followed this thread for awhile (and played WiF since 3rd edition)...I would just like to say that perhaps the map of China should be made as realistic as possible. The physical geography of China is what it is. The social geography of China in 1937 can be researched. But the map should represent what the military leaders of the day had to deal with. If there are play-balance / blow-out problems they should be addressed within the game, not by tweaking the map. Now, a wargame map represents a lot of judgement calls; which ports and cities qualify for that status within the rules of a game is a decision that has to be made. Ditto for what side of a river a city is on when the river flows through downtown. But moving things around to change play balance seems like the wrong approach. Or moving them around so things can be how you _want_ them to be...well what military commander wouldn't want to be able to change the terrain in front of him? Can a small port handle the shipping to feed a few score thousand men?

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The idea of "I want to attack in this direction, can you put a port on the map there for me?" seems wrong.

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According to 3 physical maps (best one 1:4 000 000) it is warranted, to make the Nanning hex and the ones left and right to its mountain hexes.

According to these maps there also should be a continuous double row of mountain hexes from the mountain hex south of Nanning via the 2 forest hexes to the mountains of Kweilin. This is the so called Yunkai dashan (Yunkai big mountains).

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Is there  a "hard" definition in WIF for mountain, forest, desert and city hexes??

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Now what about the terrain between Kweilin and  Hainan? Are these Yunkai dashan big mountains well represented by the lone forest hex south of Pearl river?

What do you think Froonp? what about the others and says google earth?

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Thanks for the recommendation. You should just post your feedback/suggestions, because Google earth sure will help us to make a better China map. Do they also have historical seizes for cities??

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ORIGINAL: Incy

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Thanks for the recommendation. You should just post your feedback/suggestions, because Google earth sure will help us to make a better China map. Do they also have historical seizes for cities??

OK, here goes:
-Ningsia (and the hex south of it?) should not be desert, but clear or forest
You're right about Ningsia hex itself: 100 km along the Yellow river rice paddies. About Ningsia Province in my 1988 China: a travel survival-kit: "Part of the arid north -west of China, Ninxia is probably one of the poorest regions in the country. Winters are hard and cold, with plummeting temperatures; blistering summers make irrigation neceessity." (p.729)
"Around Yinchuan [= Ningsia town]: About 17 km west of Yinchuan is the mountain ressort of Gunzhongku (...) The highest mountain in this range, Mt. Helena is 3556 metres high." (p.733). That probably means: a (desert?) mountain hex to the nortwest of Ningsia.
-Tianshui shou have mountains to the southeast, maybe also an alpine hexide(instead of the southern alpine hexi. The city itself is possible a clear hex
Right on that mountain hex to southeast, maybe even to the southwest hex. Maybe Forest?! My map say mountains with conifers.The city itself dry cultivated with mountains (1000-1500 m.) Not sure about alpin hex question.
-ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, byt they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
According to my maps the hexes south of Chongqing are 500-1000m heigh, the first  one to the east (50% 500-1000m, 50% 1000-1500 m), the second one to the east  1000-1500 m) Chongqing itself is about 100-200 m heigh.
-The Yangzee should run eastwards from Chungking from the northeastern corner of the hex, not the southeastern corner. The river should run straight east for two hexes (until it hits where the Yangzee runs in the current map). The tributary from the Kweiyang area should join up just one hex east of ChungKing rather than 2 hexes. The hex two hexes east of Chungking should be mountain.
Right about the rivers (if i've dig it). About the mountains: see above.
-Wuhan should be one city, on the NW side of the river. The hexes to the SE and SW of Wuhan could very well be modelled as a swamps, they have many large irregular-shaped lankes and large swaths of submerged ricefields.
Right about Wuhan. South of it there seems to be a 125 km wide net of different lakes.Either one lake, or one swamp-hex??
-The hex NE of Nanchang could also be a swamp hex.
Lake Poyang (3583 sq km, second biggest Lak in China) should probably extend to the south.
-Where to put lakes in this area is up for grabs, to put it mildly. I think lake hexides in wuhan area can be removed, except the 2 that are lake TungTing. I would add a lake on SE hexside on hex SW of Anking instead, and replace lakes with rivers
Lake Tungting (2820 sq km) should stay. Maybe transform Lake Liangtse into swamp hex (net of lakes, rice paddies)??
-Wuhan should have rivers on all sides (except posibly NW)
The city is practically surrounded with Yangtze, its tributaries and lakes.
-Two southernmost hexsides of Han Kiang can be removed, this river enters the Yangtzee in (western part of)Wuhan
But it splits before.
-The hex NW of NanChang should not have rivers on its 3 western hexides, but should probably be mountain
From NW to SW it's the river Kanchiang (Gangjiang). From NE to SE it's  Lake Poyang and it's tributaries. About elevation 50% flat 50% Mufu- and Jiuli-Hills (mostly 200-500 m.)
-The two lakes NW of Nanking should bothe be moved 1 hexrow east, as should the river. Right  The river should stop at the SE corner of Suchow hex.The river on the map represents the  net of 3-4 lakes, mostly not wide but mostly around 100 km long connected by channels. (This would be the more lake-ier part of the Grand Channel.) ButSuchow should be to the West of it.  There should also run due east all the way to the sea from this point. The railroad should remain where it is, so it should be on the western/northern side of the rivers & lakes (there's no railroad east of the river/lakes today, but there is one to the west connecting NanKing and Suchow) Railroad north of Suchow should switch to the hex row east of the river.
-there are 4 close mediumsize cities just NW of Shanghai that I think together warrant a city hex (called Changzhou or Wuxi ?) Nantong, Changshu, Wuxi, Changzhou These are today city-governement sized and administrated cities. Problem: There are literally hundreds of them today. As were in WW2. (besides Wuhsing is the only one also representated on my 1935 printed China-map, 1cm = 100miles) Where to begin?? Right now  Froonps China map contains most of the provincial cities, most of the more important treaty-ports, and a few historical important minor cities.
-Hex SW of Nanking should be swamp? (lakes, heavy with canals/submerged ricefields) Right, there is a lake in it. Problem with rice-fields is: If we convert all the ricefield-heavy areas in China to swamp, man that would be a rather swampy map. On the other hand: perhaps we should do it. Imperial Japanese Army didn't hav bunches of heavy tanks.
-Macau should also be a city Agreed on that: It was the oldest European colony in China in WW2, a Portugese one. But that probably would mean additional rules. BTW it formally never was occupied by the Japanese in WW2.
-There should be a lot more broken terrain (forest or mountain) in the area west of Canton. Suiggest forest W and SW of Canton, Mountain in two hexes west of these. More forest to the north of that. Agreed on that. Practically the whole area between Canton and Nanning should either be forest or mountain, apart from the coastal hexes. The river that runs in direction of ChangSha should branch off one hex sooner (i,e it would also cover Cantons NW hexside). It shoud otherwise follow same path. Move the railroad to always run east of the river. Right.
-hexes W, WW, and W-SW of nanning Should be forest. Hex SW of Nanning should be mountain. The river that runs west of Nanning should alsa have an extension nort and cover the western side of Naning. Right. The mountain and forest hexes on the Indochina border should eb swapped. The hex east of Nanning should probably be mountain and Nanning itself probably should be forest. Or mountain
-I have trouble finding any rivers that justify most of the rivers in the Peking/Paoting/Tientsin area. There is river Sanganhe, River hai he and the Grand Channel. Perhaps short rivers east and west of Tientsin are justified. NB!! I do see 2 big dams and broad white "riverlike" features in the terrain, though. Have the rivers in the area disappeared? (agriculture, etc?)
-I think many of the mountains a bit west of peking should be desert mountains I agree with that.  This could be warranted even for the north eastern part of Himalaya, some 5-600 km north west of Lanchow. BTW : The Railway Paochi(Baoji)- Lanchow was completed in 1952 (China Traval Survival Kit, p. 738-739).

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I wondered if there will be a similar great work effort to create the European scale map for the other map areas of the worldwho haven't the European map scale in WIFFE?  I think about areas like: Japan, Asian part of Russia, India, Indo-China, Pacific Islands, Australia, Africa, America and Scandinavia.

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I wondered if there will be a similar great work effort to create the European scale map for the other map areas of the worldwho haven't the European map scale in WIFFE?  I think about areas like: Japan, Asian part of Russia, India, Indo-China, Pacific Islands, Australia, Africa, America and Scandinavia.

It is not planned for the moment.

The map for scandinavia needed a lot of editing too, but this was already done. Nils had created in the past a nice European scaled Scandinavia, and we took it s a start. I made the modifications, guided by Nils (who is Norwegian). Claes Insulander should be including our modification in the playtest MWiF now. The modifications from Nils adaptation were directed at making the Scandinavia map more WiF like, and more real life like. I suppose Steve will post a screen shot when it will be done. I don't know if it will be opened to further comments & editing, Steve will decide.

There are other places I wish we will edit in the MWiF map :
- The Caucasus Mountains, who are disgressing a lot fromt he WiF FE maps in the Asia map zone.
- The Singapore area (already discussed inthese forums).
- The Iraq / persia area, where there are a couple of mods to be made (Basra position, possibly Teheran terrain).

I already prepared graphics of each of those areas, and am waiting for Steve clearance to start discussions about them.

I looked casually at Africa and it seemed right to me.

We should have to look at India too. It may be an important part of the Pacific map.

The Pacific islands, Australia & Japan seemed right to me at first look (and having played 2 complete 39-45 -- & 39-46 -- CWiF games).

Northen Siberia, with the Scandinavia modification, should be edited too (basically moved down about 10 hex rows), but it may be worthless as nothing will place care there.

I would be pleased to continue the Map editing job I begun with the Scandinavia map & now with the China map, as I enjoy it quite a lot, both on the Geographic research side (I love Geography & History) and on the Graphic Editing program using side (I love to learn new tricks on these softwares).

Cheers !
Patrice

I agree with all the Patrice says here. 

Let's take these areas one at a time.  And minimal changes is my going in position.

I am most concerned with areas that see (or might see) a lot of land combat. That would be southeast Asia, the eastern-most USSR, and India.

Of secondary importance is getting the basic geography right in areas that are unlikely to have soldiers tramping all over them.  The Great Lakes region of the US comes to mind as having many mistakes - but they won't affect game play.  Remember, the focus here is to make a game, not a wonderful map.

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ORIGINAL: wosung

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ORIGINAL: Incy
-ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, byt they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
According to my maps the hexes south of Chongqing are 500-1000m heigh, the first  one to the east (50% 500-1000m, 50% 1000-1500 m), the second one to the east  1000-1500 m) Chongqing itself is about 100-200 m heigh.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

The North
Cities
- Ankang (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Ningsia (name was Yinchuan) (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Sining (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Tianshui (name was Tienshui) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Tungkwan (name was Tongguan) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Paochi (name was Baoji) (not on map - was 2 hexes west of Sian) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Paotow (not on map - was at the end of the rail going NW from Taiyuan) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Yennan (6 votes 4 YES) YES

Terrain Features
- More Desert NW & W of Taiyuan-Lanchow line (4 votes 2 YES) 
YES if you mean direction of the Silk Road
- River on 3 sides around Lanchow (0 votes -- I talked about it in an old post, but no one commented)
NO simply because it makes it too dificult to attack Lanchow
- Road to Lanchow / rail interrupted at Tianshui (drawn road, moved resource to end of road - don't like it, too far) (3 votes 3 YES) YES - Incy persueded me to change point of view

The Coast
Cities
- Wuhan being moved 1 hex NW (5 votes 5 YES) YES
- Hangchow becoming a Minor Port (2 votes 1 YES) YES
- Anking (alternative to Hofei) (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Nanchang (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Nanyang (alternative to Siangfan) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Paoting (name was Baoding) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Suchow (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Hofei (name was Hefei) (alternative to Anking) (not on map - was 1 hex NW of Anking) (6 votes 0 YES) NO
- Siangfan (name was Xiangfan) (alternative to Nanyang) (not on map - was 1 hex SW from Nanyang) (6 votes 0 YES) NO

Terrain Features
- New Lake hexside west of Shanghai (4 votes 4 YES) NO
- New Anking Mountains (4 votes 4 YES) YES
- New River Imperial Channel along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not added) (3 votes 1 YES) NO

The South
Cities
- Chungking being moved 1 hex SE (not moved on the map) (alternative to Add mountains around Chungking) (2 votes 0 YES) YES
- Chihkiang (name was Chihchiang) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Kweilin (alternative to Liuchow) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Pakhoi (port) (alternative to Kwangchowan) (3 votes 2 YES) YES
- Hengyang (not on map - was 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Kwangchowan (port) (alternative to Pakhoi) (Wosung say name is Hoihong - not on map - was 2 hexes S/SE of Nanning) (3 votes 0 YES) NO
- Liuchow (alternative to Kweilin) (not on map - was 2 hexes SW of Kweilin) (6 votes 0 YES) NO

Terrain Features
- Move resource south (Changsha resource moved 1 hex south) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- New Nanning Mountains / forest (2 votes 2 YES) YES
- Add Mountains around Chungking (alternative to move Chungking) (3 votes 2 YES) NO
- Road from Nanning to resource / rail interrupted (drawn) (3 votes 3 YES) YES

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Imperial Channel: No because I think it's too small